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Post by laughter on Jun 19, 2022 12:19:21 GMT -5
I generally agree with what you say here and can relate it to my experience of sitting meditation, where I might start with "attention on attention" that can eventually open and transition to "awareness of awareness". So these methods of focusing on an object, as you refer to it, like, say, focusing on a flower or a candle flame? I've seen those sorts of suggestions but never followed them. Seems to me similar to the sort of hypnosis you'd encounter in a religious ritual, like, say, a Catholic Mass. What I'd say about a state like that is that it is is different from various common states of consciousness. When people aren't working or entertaining themselves their minds can be all over the place, and most people have very noisy minds. Other common ways for people to occupy their minds are with the company of others or altering their state with intoxicants. Meditation is a way to an altered state of consciousness, but perhaps not everyone is always ready for some of the deeper and profoundly expansive and quiet states of mind, so some sort of intermediate state via concentration might serve as a sort of intermediate transition. From what I understand of TM this is the concentration on the mantra. yes it would be right to say that using a mantra or some other object is an intermediate transition to the expansive state of pure awareness. But it could also be said of the self inquiry of Ramana because we first start with "who am I" as the intermediary instead of a mantra. Most practices use this one thought principle. With TM it's the mantra. The only quibble I would have with you is that one doesn't concentrate on the mantra. It is thought effortlessly just like any other thought. The transition is experiencing more and more subtlety of the mantra until it disappears leaving awareness alone. When you shout in a cave the loud echo gradually fades and when it's gone there is a deafening silence! Some people report that the kind of meditation I fell into can seem difficult for them. I never experienced that, but just that rather, sometimes my mind would or will be more noisy than others at the outset. Most of my self-inquiry was done unconsciously, and was premised on the notion of myself and the world. "What is the Universe? How did it get here?", much more rarely, "why?". By the time I encountered Ramana that had shifted to a pure sort of "what is this??", and his quotes and his cultural persona seemed incredibly on point and were .. "helpful".  So, I don't disagree with the points you make here, but I can see how some people might find meditation to be hard sometimes. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2022 20:51:41 GMT -5
You are peace. But there's a difference between knowing/realizing this and thinking/believing it. The former surpasses all understanding, the latter can be a stepping stone to freedom or another obstacle or trap if it is appropriated by the ego. Then it becomes a sort of badge of merit or altar for self worship. The problem here is not the thinking or believing you are peace, the problem is that this thought can become another feature of the mental machinery. Moment by moment, this apparatus, collection of vasanas, attempts to assuage the ego by replacing "what's happening" with "what's not happening." This goes on incessantly and surreptitiously in most cases. The vehicle for this replacement is thought, not all thought, some thoughts are free of ego's pull. But definitely compulsive thinking. What mindfulness does is pull attention away from this barrage of ego reinforcing propaganda. In doing so, the hidden, subtle scheming comes to the surface. There is less deception and delusion. The biggest gain is humility as contradictory as that sounds. Peace isn't a thought. No one ever believes they are at peace. Ask yourself this question. When you feel calm and at peace do you ever find it necessary to say to yourself I think I'm at peace. It doesn't happen. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2022 21:00:01 GMT -5
yes it would be right to say that using a mantra or some other object is an intermediate transition to the expansive state of pure awareness. But it could also be said of the self inquiry of Ramana because we first start with "who am I" as the intermediary instead of a mantra. Most practices use this one thought principle. With TM it's the mantra. The only quibble I would have with you is that one doesn't concentrate on the mantra. It is thought effortlessly just like any other thought. The transition is experiencing more and more subtlety of the mantra until it disappears leaving awareness alone. When you shout in a cave the loud echo gradually fades and when it's gone there is a deafening silence! Some people report that the kind of meditation I fell into can seem difficult for them. I never experienced that, but just that rather, sometimes my mind would or will be more noisy than others at the outset. Most of my self-inquiry was done unconsciously, and was premised on the notion of myself and the world. "What is the Universe? How did it get here?", much more rarely, "why?". By the time I encountered Ramana that had shifted to a pure sort of "what is this??", and his quotes and his cultural persona seemed incredibly on point and were .. "helpful". So, I don't disagree with the points you make here, but I can see how some people might find meditation to be hard sometimes. yes it can seem hard at times but only when the mind is full of thoughts. It's hard because one tries to compensate for the noise by putting in extra effort to try and overcome it. That's what feels hard. Don't do that! Just let the mind do what it wants to do. When it gets fed up it will point back again towards its source if given the opportunity. It's hard to pull the cow out of the cow shed but if you offer it some grass it will easily follow. That's paraphrasing Ramana talking about self-inquiry because I don't have any cows myself. |
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Post by lolly on Jun 19, 2022 21:03:40 GMT -5
Mind and body aka thoughts and feelings are the meditation objects in Buddhism. The general idea is conscious awareness of the vedana sans psychological reactivity. 'Ego reinforcement' is said reactivity eliciting the volition that perpetuates rebirth into the next moment. Hence, mindfulness is a non-reactive and therefore non-volitional practice in which you see it 'as it is' rather than trying to make it 'as you want it to be'. That's why intentional thought generation such as mantra and visualisation, and volitional control such as breath regulation contradict mindfulness at it's most fundamental level. This facet of 'see it as it is' is referenced as 'mere awareness' in texts, but 'ardent awareness' is used in the repeated definition of mindfulness: 'Ardent awareness with understanding of impermanence, free of craving and aversion in the world'.
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Post by laughter on Jun 20, 2022 4:19:16 GMT -5
Some people report that the kind of meditation I fell into can seem difficult for them. I never experienced that, but just that rather, sometimes my mind would or will be more noisy than others at the outset. Most of my self-inquiry was done unconsciously, and was premised on the notion of myself and the world. "What is the Universe? How did it get here?", much more rarely, "why?". By the time I encountered Ramana that had shifted to a pure sort of "what is this??", and his quotes and his cultural persona seemed incredibly on point and were .. "helpful". So, I don't disagree with the points you make here, but I can see how some people might find meditation to be hard sometimes. yes it can seem hard at times but only when the mind is full of thoughts. It's hard because one tries to compensate for the noise by putting in extra effort to try and overcome it. That's what feels hard. Don't do that! Just let the mind do what it wants to do. When it gets fed up it will point back again towards its source if given the opportunity. It's hard to pull the cow out of the cow shed but if you offer it some grass it will easily follow. That's paraphrasing Ramana talking about self-inquiry because I don't have any cows myself. Yes, one visualization that works to open the mind/body to silence is that thoughts and emotions are like clouds, just let them pass through the sky of the mind. Don't deny them, don't suppress them, just let them be there, and they fade. That kind of struggle is very much related to what Enigma used to call "split-mind". Essentially, to anyone encountering this the question is "how many of you are in there?". |
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Post by lolly on Jun 20, 2022 4:37:00 GMT -5
yes it can seem hard at times but only when the mind is full of thoughts. It's hard because one tries to compensate for the noise by putting in extra effort to try and overcome it. That's what feels hard. Don't do that! Just let the mind do what it wants to do. When it gets fed up it will point back again towards its source if given the opportunity. It's hard to pull the cow out of the cow shed but if you offer it some grass it will easily follow. That's paraphrasing Ramana talking about self-inquiry because I don't have any cows myself. "how many of you are in there?". All of them  |
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Post by laughter on Jun 20, 2022 4:51:11 GMT -5
"how many of you are in there?". All of them  .. wrong answer.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2022 4:53:07 GMT -5
yes it can seem hard at times but only when the mind is full of thoughts. It's hard because one tries to compensate for the noise by putting in extra effort to try and overcome it. That's what feels hard. Don't do that! Just let the mind do what it wants to do. When it gets fed up it will point back again towards its source if given the opportunity. It's hard to pull the cow out of the cow shed but if you offer it some grass it will easily follow. That's paraphrasing Ramana talking about self-inquiry because I don't have any cows myself. Yes, one visualization that works to open the mind/body to silence is that thoughts and emotions are like clouds, just let them pass through the sky of the mind. Don't deny them, don't suppress them, just let them be there, and they fade. That kind of struggle is very much related to what Enigma used to call "split-mind". Essentially, to anyone encountering this the question is "how many of you are in there?". The practice of transcending a fading object so as to arrive at pure objectless awareness has been around for a long time Some verses from the Vijñāna-bhairava-Tantra. 12. ‘Cessation’ (nirodha) [of the mind] was taught by previous [masters] through the yoga/method of renunciation [of the mind and senses] and arduous practice. Here I will teach a cessation that is [comparatively] effortless. 13. Focus the mind upon something that then dissolves. Because it is not grasping anything else [other than the dissolving object], the mind comes to rest in one’s Self. 14. It is similar to the case of a powerful thunder-clap gradually fading: when it dies away, the mind, due to being [totally] focused on it, comes to rest. 15. One should give oneself to one-pointedness [i.e. meditate] on any enchanting (manohara) sound that comes into one’s hearing, until ceasing it brings about the cessation [of mind]. |
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Post by laughter on Jun 20, 2022 4:58:43 GMT -5
Yes, one visualization that works to open the mind/body to silence is that thoughts and emotions are like clouds, just let them pass through the sky of the mind. Don't deny them, don't suppress them, just let them be there, and they fade. That kind of struggle is very much related to what Enigma used to call "split-mind". Essentially, to anyone encountering this the question is "how many of you are in there?". The practice of transcending a fading object so as to arrive at pure objectless awareness has been around for a long time Some verses from the Vijñāna-bhairava-Tantra. 12. ‘Cessation’ (nirodha) [of the mind] was taught by previous [masters] through the yoga/method of renunciation [of the mind and senses] and arduous practice. Here I will teach a cessation that is [comparatively] effortless. 13. Focus the mind upon something that then dissolves. Because it is not grasping anything else [other than the dissolving object], the mind comes to rest in one’s Self. 14. It is similar to the case of a powerful thunder-clap gradually fading: when it dies away, the mind, due to being [totally] focused on it, comes to rest. 15. One should give oneself to one-pointedness [i.e. meditate] on any enchanting (manohara) sound that comes into one’s hearing, until ceasing it brings about the cessation [of mind]. Great stuff. I've found it fun to contemplate how every conversation that ever happens is a continuation of past conversations, since you had to originally learn language from someone else, and you originally hear about an idea like the one those scriptures express for the first time from someone else. So it's like the past is always talking to and through us, every time we speak and listen. Just like we don't have to be aware of the blood in our veins, we can take all that past culture for granted as it plays out, in the moment. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2022 6:36:16 GMT -5
The practice of transcending a fading object so as to arrive at pure objectless awareness has been around for a long time Some verses from the Vijñāna-bhairava-Tantra. 12. ‘Cessation’ (nirodha) [of the mind] was taught by previous [masters] through the yoga/method of renunciation [of the mind and senses] and arduous practice. Here I will teach a cessation that is [comparatively] effortless. 13. Focus the mind upon something that then dissolves. Because it is not grasping anything else [other than the dissolving object], the mind comes to rest in one’s Self. 14. It is similar to the case of a powerful thunder-clap gradually fading: when it dies away, the mind, due to being [totally] focused on it, comes to rest. 15. One should give oneself to one-pointedness [i.e. meditate] on any enchanting (manohara) sound that comes into one’s hearing, until ceasing it brings about the cessation [of mind]. Great stuff. I've found it fun to contemplate how every conversation that ever happens is a continuation of past conversations, since you had to originally learn language from someone else, and you originally hear about an idea like the one those scriptures express for the first time from someone else. So it's like the past is always talking to and through us, every time we speak and listen. Just like we don't have to be aware of the blood in our veins, we can take all that past culture for granted as it plays out, in the moment. Hi Laughter, How long it takes for you to lose your body consciousness when you meditate? |
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Post by zendancer on Jun 20, 2022 6:46:05 GMT -5
You are peace. But there's a difference between knowing/realizing this and thinking/believing it. The former surpasses all understanding, the latter can be a stepping stone to freedom or another obstacle or trap if it is appropriated by the ego. Then it becomes a sort of badge of merit or altar for self worship. The problem here is not the thinking or believing you are peace, the problem is that this thought can become another feature of the mental machinery. Moment by moment, this apparatus, collection of vasanas, attempts to assuage the ego by replacing "what's happening" with "what's not happening." This goes on incessantly and surreptitiously in most cases. The vehicle for this replacement is thought, not all thought, some thoughts are free of ego's pull. But definitely compulsive thinking. What mindfulness does is pull attention away from this barrage of ego reinforcing propaganda. In doing so, the hidden, subtle scheming comes to the surface. There is less deception and delusion. The biggest gain is humility as contradictory as that sounds. Peace isn't a thought. No one ever believes they are at peace. Ask yourself this question. When you feel calm and at peace do you ever find it necessary to say to yourself I think I'm at peace. It doesn't happen. Correct. In non-duality circles we often refer to three kinds of peace; two of which are transient and one of which is permanent. The most inconsequential form refers to people who live in a good dream. They're healthy and wealthy and life is good. They can travel and play and have few problems. Things are good until they get sick, or lose all of their money, or encounter other kinds of catastrophes. Then, their life turns into a bad dream, and they lose the peace of mind they once had. The second kind of peace--"the peace that passes understanding"-- occurs after people encounter oneness (sometimes through a CC). This kind of peace is the real deal, but it usually fades away over time, and is therefore transient. Nevertheless, people who have experienced the real deal never forget what happened and what is possible, so they often become serious seekers in an effort to regain what they think they've lost. In some cases people report multiple experiences of the real deal, but each time they lose it. Only after SR does the real deal become permanent (sahaja samadhi), and after that happens, they never have to think about peace again because it's a fundamental aspect of their ordinary everyday life. For those people it doesn't matter what life brings, and even in a war zone, they will be at peace. Here's a quote by Ramana that is pointing to this in a strange way: "The peace often gained must be remembered at other times. That peace is your natural and permanent state. By continuous practice, it will become natural. It is called the 'current.' That is your true nature." I think this is probably a poor translation of something he said because the word "remembered" does not strike true and sounds more like an intellectual endeavor. You can't get to permanent peace by remembering a past experience of peace. AAR, it's an interesting quote and I wasn't aware that Ramana used the term "the current" fairly often in his talks. I wonder if by "current" he is referring to the felt sense of chi? Or to what some people call "the sense of flow" or to "alignment with Tao?" Thoughts? |
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Post by zendancer on Jun 20, 2022 7:01:40 GMT -5
Great stuff. I've found it fun to contemplate how every conversation that ever happens is a continuation of past conversations, since you had to originally learn language from someone else, and you originally hear about an idea like the one those scriptures express for the first time from someone else. So it's like the past is always talking to and through us, every time we speak and listen. Just like we don't have to be aware of the blood in our veins, we can take all that past culture for granted as it plays out, in the moment. Hi Laughter, How long it takes for you to lose your body consciousness when you meditate? Four types of no-body consciousness--sleep, being knocked unconscious or coma, nirvikalpa samadhi, and sahaja samadhi. In SS there is awareness of a body, but it's not the same kind of body consciousness as prior to SR (it's impersonal rather than personal). Laughter, Satch, Reefs, and others can expand upon this. I don't formally meditate any more, but when I did, NS was not predictable. Sometimes it happened after ten or twenty minutes, at other times only after an hour or so, and at other times not at all. Satch says that he fell into deep samadhi at an early age (even though he didn't know what it was) and as an adult he could fall into that state easily. That doesn't seem to be true for most meditators I've met. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2022 7:12:26 GMT -5
Peace isn't a thought. No one ever believes they are at peace. Ask yourself this question. When you feel calm and at peace do you ever find it necessary to say to yourself I think I'm at peace. It doesn't happen. Correct. In non-duality circles we often refer to three kinds of peace; two of which are transient and one of which is permanent. The most inconsequential form refers to people who live in a good dream. They're healthy and wealthy and life is good. They can travel and play and have few problems. Things are good until they get sick, or lose all of their money, or encounter other kinds of catastrophes. Then, their life turns into a bad dream, and they lose the peace of mind they once had. The second kind of peace--"the peace that passes understanding"-- occurs after people encounter oneness (sometimes through a CC). This kind of peace is the real deal, but it usually fades away over time, and is therefore transient. Nevertheless, people who have experienced the real deal never forget what happened and what is possible, so they often become serious seekers in an effort to regain what they think they've lost. In some cases people report multiple experiences of the real deal, but each time they lose it. Only after SR does the real deal become permanent (sahaja samadhi), and after that happens, they never have to think about peace again because it's a fundamental aspect of their ordinary everyday life. For those people it doesn't matter what life brings, and even in a war zone, they will be at peace. Here's a quote by Ramana that is pointing to this in a strange way: "The peace often gained must be remembered at other times. That peace is your natural and permanent state. By continuous practice, it will become natural. It is called the 'current.' That is your true nature." I think this is probably a poor translation of something he said because the word "remembered" does not strike true and sounds more like an intellectual endeavor. You can't get to permanent peace by remembering a past experience of peace. AAR, it's an interesting quote and I wasn't aware that Ramana used the term "the current" fairly often in his talks. I wonder if by "current" he is referring to the felt sense of chi? Or to what some people call "the sense of flow" or to "alignment with Tao?" Thoughts? I found two other interesting quotes from Ramana about current. "If you strengthen the mind, that peace will continue for all time. Its duration is proportional to the strength of mind acquired by repeated practice. And such a mind is able to hold on to the current. In that case, engagement or no engagement in work, the current remains unaffected and uninterrupted." "In the earlier stages the mind reverts to the search at long intervals; with continued practice it reverts at shorter intervals until finally it does not wander at all. It is then that the dormant sakti manifests. The satvic mind is free from thoughts whereas the rajasic mind is full of them. The sattvic mind resolves itself into the Life-current." |
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Post by zazeniac on Jun 20, 2022 9:26:46 GMT -5
You are peace. But there's a difference between knowing/realizing this and thinking/believing it. The former surpasses all understanding, the latter can be a stepping stone to freedom or another obstacle or trap if it is appropriated by the ego. Then it becomes a sort of badge of merit or altar for self worship. The problem here is not the thinking or believing you are peace, the problem is that this thought can become another feature of the mental machinery. Moment by moment, this apparatus, collection of vasanas, attempts to assuage the ego by replacing "what's happening" with "what's not happening." This goes on incessantly and surreptitiously in most cases. The vehicle for this replacement is thought, not all thought, some thoughts are free of ego's pull. But definitely compulsive thinking. What mindfulness does is pull attention away from this barrage of ego reinforcing propaganda. In doing so, the hidden, subtle scheming comes to the surface. There is less deception and delusion. The biggest gain is humility as contradictory as that sounds. Peace isn't a thought. No one ever believes they are at peace. Ask yourself this question. When you feel calm and at peace do you ever find it necessary to say to yourself I think I'm at peace. It doesn't happen. This is what "I" think and "believe" I am. Though it is fleeting. I feel it when I practice zazen, or mindfulness or kin hin. If I read Baghavan's words I'm assured that I am peace when the mind rests and that eventually it will be put to rest permanently. As he said you can't "know" God or as you call it "Awareness." But you can be God, when the mind rests. Even if it takes effort, savikalpa samadhi. Eventually, like a bird first learning to fly, flight is effortless, sahaja samadhi. There are many who are told that we are already "free" in satsang and misconstrue this, still reacting, use it as a cudgel. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2022 9:35:55 GMT -5
Peace isn't a thought. No one ever believes they are at peace. Ask yourself this question. When you feel calm and at peace do you ever find it necessary to say to yourself I think I'm at peace. It doesn't happen. This is what "I" think and "believe" I am. Though it is fleeting. I feel it when I practice zazen, or mindfulness or kin hin. If I read Baghavan's words I'm assured that I am peace when the mind rests and that eventually it will be put to rest permanently. As he said you can't "know" God or as you call it "Awareness." But you can be God, when the mind rests. Even if it takes effort, savikalpa samadhi. Eventually, like a bird first learning to fly, flight is effortless, sahaja samadhi. There are many who are told that we are already "free" in satsang and misconstrue this, still reacting, use it as a cudgel. if you feel peace then you are peace. There is no difference between feeling it and being it regardless of whether it is permanent or not. There are not two kinds of peace. |
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So, I don't disagree with the points you make here, but I can see how some people might find meditation to be hard sometimes.
.. wrong answer. 