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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2022 9:38:03 GMT -5
This is what "I" think and "believe" I am. Though it is fleeting. I feel it when I practice zazen, or mindfulness or kin hin. If I read Baghavan's words I'm assured that I am peace when the mind rests and that eventually it will be put to rest permanently. As he said you can't "know" God or as you call it "Awareness." But you can be God, when the mind rests. Even if it takes effort, savikalpa samadhi. Eventually, like a bird first learning to fly, flight is effortless, sahaja samadhi. There are many who are told that we are already "free" in satsang and misconstrue this, still reacting, use it as a cudgel. if you feel peace then you are peace. There is no difference between feeling it and being it regardless of whether it is permanent or not. There are not two kinds of peace. Feeling of being peacefulness brings the opposite. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2022 9:40:44 GMT -5
if you feel peace then you are peace. There is no difference between feeling it and being it regardless of whether it is permanent or not. There are not two kinds of peace. Feeling of being peacefulness brings the opposite. Feeling peace doesn't cause the opposite. It's just that it may be replaced by the opposite eventually because we are continually experiencing opposites. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2022 9:50:14 GMT -5
Feeling of being peacefulness brings the opposite. Feeling peace doesn't cause the opposite. It's just that it may be replaced by the opposite eventually because we are continually experiencing opposites. Yes, so in that case(while Peace is a kind of feeling), Its not permanent. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2022 9:53:15 GMT -5
Feeling peace doesn't cause the opposite. It's just that it may be replaced by the opposite eventually because we are continually experiencing opposites. Yes, so in that case(while Peace is a kind of feeling), Its not permanent. Permanent peace is a kind of permanent feeling of peace. What else would it be? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2022 9:59:48 GMT -5
Yes, so in that case(while Peace is a kind of feeling), Its not permanent. Permanent peace is a kind of permanent feeling of peace. What else would it be? Peace is not having certain feeling like feel of peace, feel of happiness, If certain feeling like anger doesn't rise, you are obviously in peace. So I must say that Peace is the absence not presence of some kind of feeling. |
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Post by zazeniac on Jun 20, 2022 10:42:31 GMT -5
This is what "I" think and "believe" I am. Though it is fleeting. I feel it when I practice zazen, or mindfulness or kin hin. If I read Baghavan's words I'm assured that I am peace when the mind rests and that eventually it will be put to rest permanently. As he said you can't "know" God or as you call it "Awareness." But you can be God, when the mind rests. Even if it takes effort, savikalpa samadhi. Eventually, like a bird first learning to fly, flight is effortless, sahaja samadhi. There are many who are told that we are already "free" in satsang and misconstrue this, still reacting, use it as a cudgel. if you feel peace then you are peace. There is no difference between feeling it and being it regardless of whether it is permanent or not. There are not two kinds of peace. My point is that recognizing your true nature occasionally is different than freedom, sahaja samadhi, therefore you should keep practicing. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2022 11:01:43 GMT -5
if you feel peace then you are peace. There is no difference between feeling it and being it regardless of whether it is permanent or not. There are not two kinds of peace. My point is that recognizing your true nature occasionally is different than freedom, sahaja samadhi, therefore you should keep practicing. yes of course because it's not permanent. Only sahaja is permanent and irreversible. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2022 11:03:26 GMT -5
Permanent peace is a kind of permanent feeling of peace. What else would it be? Peace is not having certain feeling like feel of peace, feel of happiness, If certain feeling like anger doesn't rise, you are obviously in peace. So I must say that Peace is the absence not presence of some kind of feeling. I know what peace is and it's not an absence, it's a fullness. It's fully present. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2022 12:06:56 GMT -5
Peace is not having certain feeling like feel of peace, feel of happiness, If certain feeling like anger doesn't rise, you are obviously in peace. So I must say that Peace is the absence not presence of some kind of feeling. I know what peace is and it's not an absence, it's a fullness. It's fully present. You are describing peace as some kind of feeling which comes and goes. That's where I am finding the problem. |
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Post by zazeniac on Jun 20, 2022 12:31:16 GMT -5
From "Be As You Are" by Godman.
RM dialog
"Q: While making japa for an hour or more I fall into a state like sleep. On waking up I recollect that my japa has been
interrupted. So I try again.
A: ‘Like sleep’, that is right. It is the natural state. Because you are now associated with the ego, you consider that the natural state is something which interrupts your work. So you must have the experience repeated until you realize that it is your natural state.
You will then find that japa is extraneous but still it will go on automatically. Your present doubt is due to that false identity, namely of identifying yourself with the mind that does the japa. Japa means clinging to one thought to the exclusion of all other thoughts. That is its purpose. It leads to dhyana which ends in Self-realization or jnana."
Even while following the breath there comes a point where the breath is no longer the breath where all orientation disappears, all labels. This is what the questioner describes as "like sleep."
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Post by laughter on Jun 20, 2022 17:39:17 GMT -5
Great stuff. I've found it fun to contemplate how every conversation that ever happens is a continuation of past conversations, since you had to originally learn language from someone else, and you originally hear about an idea like the one those scriptures express for the first time from someone else. So it's like the past is always talking to and through us, every time we speak and listen. Just like we don't have to be aware of the blood in our veins, we can take all that past culture for granted as it plays out, in the moment. Hi Laughter, How long it takes for you to lose your body consciousness when you meditate? Well, I've never gotten to that ultimate state of pure objectless awareness. For me it's always been a matter of degree. But I do go pretty deep. The feeling of contact of my feet on the ground and of my body with the bench become quite remote, and sounds and the feeling of the breeze seem oddly both accentuated, but as if they're coming from down a long hallway. The time for that varies but can be as fast as half a minute. |
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Post by zazeniac on Jun 20, 2022 18:33:50 GMT -5
Peace isn't a thought. No one ever believes they are at peace. Ask yourself this question. When you feel calm and at peace do you ever find it necessary to say to yourself I think I'm at peace. It doesn't happen. Correct. In non-duality circles we often refer to three kinds of peace; two of which are transient and one of which is permanent. The most inconsequential form refers to people who live in a good dream. They're healthy and wealthy and life is good. They can travel and play and have few problems. Things are good until they get sick, or lose all of their money, or encounter other kinds of catastrophes. Then, their life turns into a bad dream, and they lose the peace of mind they once had. The second kind of peace--"the peace that passes understanding"-- occurs after people encounter oneness (sometimes through a CC). This kind of peace is the real deal, but it usually fades away over time, and is therefore transient. Nevertheless, people who have experienced the real deal never forget what happened and what is possible, so they often become serious seekers in an effort to regain what they think they've lost. In some cases people report multiple experiences of the real deal, but each time they lose it. Only after SR does the real deal become permanent (sahaja samadhi), and after that happens, they never have to think about peace again because it's a fundamental aspect of their ordinary everyday life. For those people it doesn't matter what life brings, and even in a war zone, they will be at peace. Here's a quote by Ramana that is pointing to this in a strange way: "The peace often gained must be remembered at other times. That peace is your natural and permanent state. By continuous practice, it will become natural. It is called the 'current.' That is your true nature." I think this is probably a poor translation of something he said because the word "remembered" does not strike true and sounds more like an intellectual endeavor. You can't get to permanent peace by remembering a past experience of peace. AAR, it's an interesting quote and I wasn't aware that Ramana used the term "the current" fairly often in his talks. I wonder if by "current" he is referring to the felt sense of chi? Or to what some people call "the sense of flow" or to "alignment with Tao?" Thoughts? This quote might shed more light on RM's use of the word "current". "Q: How can my mind be still if I have to use it more than other people? I want to go into solitude and renounce my headmaster’s work. A: No. You may remain where you are and go on with the work. What is the undercurrent which vivifies the mind, enables it to do all this work? It is the Self. So that is the real source of your activity. Simply be aware of it during your work and do not forget it. Contemplate in the background of your mind even whilst working. To do that, do not hurry, take your own time. Keep the remembrance of your real nature alive, even while working, and avoid haste which causes you to forget. Be deliberate. Practise meditation to still the mind and cause it to become aware of its true relationship to the Self which supports it. Do not imagine it is you who are doing the work. Think that it is the underlying current which is doing it. Identify yourself with the current. If you work unhurriedly, recollectedly, your work or service need not be a hindrance." |
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Post by zendancer on Jun 20, 2022 18:36:29 GMT -5
Correct. In non-duality circles we often refer to three kinds of peace; two of which are transient and one of which is permanent. The most inconsequential form refers to people who live in a good dream. They're healthy and wealthy and life is good. They can travel and play and have few problems. Things are good until they get sick, or lose all of their money, or encounter other kinds of catastrophes. Then, their life turns into a bad dream, and they lose the peace of mind they once had. The second kind of peace--"the peace that passes understanding"-- occurs after people encounter oneness (sometimes through a CC). This kind of peace is the real deal, but it usually fades away over time, and is therefore transient. Nevertheless, people who have experienced the real deal never forget what happened and what is possible, so they often become serious seekers in an effort to regain what they think they've lost. In some cases people report multiple experiences of the real deal, but each time they lose it. Only after SR does the real deal become permanent (sahaja samadhi), and after that happens, they never have to think about peace again because it's a fundamental aspect of their ordinary everyday life. For those people it doesn't matter what life brings, and even in a war zone, they will be at peace. Here's a quote by Ramana that is pointing to this in a strange way: "The peace often gained must be remembered at other times. That peace is your natural and permanent state. By continuous practice, it will become natural. It is called the 'current.' That is your true nature." I think this is probably a poor translation of something he said because the word "remembered" does not strike true and sounds more like an intellectual endeavor. You can't get to permanent peace by remembering a past experience of peace. AAR, it's an interesting quote and I wasn't aware that Ramana used the term "the current" fairly often in his talks. I wonder if by "current" he is referring to the felt sense of chi? Or to what some people call "the sense of flow" or to "alignment with Tao?" Thoughts? This quote might shed more light on RM's use of the word "current". "Q: How can my mind be still if I have to use it more than other people? I want to go into solitude and renounce my headmaster’s work. A: No. You may remain where you are and go on with the work. What is the undercurrent which vivifies the mind, enables it to do all this work? It is the Self. So that is the real source of your activity. Simply be aware of it during your work and do not forget it. Contemplate in the background of your mind even whilst working. To do that, do not hurry, take your own time. Keep the remembrance of your real nature alive, even while working, and avoid haste which causes you to forget. Be deliberate. Practise meditation to still the mind and cause it to become aware of its true relationship to the Self which supports it. Do not imagine it is you who are doing the work. Think that it is the underlying current which is doing it. Identify yourself with the current. If you work unhurriedly, recollectedly, your work or service need not be a hindrance." Interesting quote. Is that from a Zen teacher? |
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Post by zazeniac on Jun 20, 2022 19:25:46 GMT -5
This quote might shed more light on RM's use of the word "current". "Q: How can my mind be still if I have to use it more than other people? I want to go into solitude and renounce my headmaster’s work. A: No. You may remain where you are and go on with the work. What is the undercurrent which vivifies the mind, enables it to do all this work? It is the Self. So that is the real source of your activity. Simply be aware of it during your work and do not forget it. Contemplate in the background of your mind even whilst working. To do that, do not hurry, take your own time. Keep the remembrance of your real nature alive, even while working, and avoid haste which causes you to forget. Be deliberate. Practise meditation to still the mind and cause it to become aware of its true relationship to the Self which supports it. Do not imagine it is you who are doing the work. Think that it is the underlying current which is doing it. Identify yourself with the current. If you work unhurriedly, recollectedly, your work or service need not be a hindrance." Interesting quote. Is that from a Zen teacher? Yes. Ramana was a Zen Master. Definitely sounds like one. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2022 4:24:46 GMT -5
Hi Laughter, How long it takes for you to lose your body consciousness when you meditate? Well, I've never gotten to that ultimate state of pure objectless awareness. For me it's always been a matter of degree. But I do go pretty deep. The feeling of contact of my feet on the ground and of my body with the bench become quite remote, and sounds and the feeling of the breeze seem oddly both accentuated, but as if they're coming from down a long hallway. The time for that varies but can be as fast as half a minute. That's exactly the state I was asking people. This is the state I was talking about. So can you please tell me how long it will take for you to attain such a state? It looks like you sit in the chair while you meditate so the description that you said makes more sense to me laughter. Thanks. |
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