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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2014 7:00:35 GMT -5
the usual evasive tactics--
now i suddenly have to ´´understand the process´´---i recall you saying that obsession with how things work doesnt get you anywhere
the hallmark of a great teacher : contradict yourself every step of the way---way to go Tzu...
you stated that my beliefs (and healing) werent worth commenting on because they were coming from a guru (which isnt true, but that is your projection onto me-- they actually come from experience.)Talk about it then....i never said i didnt want to talk about it, you began attacking me...when i proved beyond a sred of doubt that my life radically improved thanks to a ´´so called guru)(they actually say this worship thing is silly--but BIG in india---and one always must go for the experience) but i see now this is the little childish game ( a 5 year old, jed mckenna would say--nowhere near adulthood)you play here with everybody.2nd chakra..chakra´s dont lie.
tell me something---what is your purpose in being here on the forum?
You didn't prove anything, you told a story about what you believe happened. At least E is willing to describe his understanding of the process, and there is merit to his description.. you're just worshiping a guru, and it's your "game"..
now i suddenly have to ´´understand the process´´---i recall you saying that obsession with how things work doesnt get you anywhere
i have no problem with trying to understand a process. i have a problem when you first state it is futile to try that, and in the next thread you blame me for not doing it.
you believe maybe you went out for groceries the other day
but that was only your interpretation of what happened, GURUDZJI
it was just some atoms swirling around
i am not indian and i do not worship
what is your purpose in being here on the forum?
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Post by quinn on Feb 13, 2014 8:22:22 GMT -5
 I've read this over a couple of times and can't make heads or tails of it. I'm assuming the "you" in there is a general 'you', eh? Cause I don't know someone like that. If volition is seen through, then 'you' aren't concluding volition anymore. If you understand the structure and content of identity, you're no longer building on it. So I don't see where something that's known is hidden. If it's known, it's known. You're messing with my use of the word 'innocence'.  Not that I remember. Seeking is effort-ful. So you're saying that seekers can be sincere, they're just all headed in the wrong (efforting) direction? Sorry to have bothered you. Huh?  Did I say something to offend you? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 13, 2014 9:07:21 GMT -5
You didn't prove anything, you told a story about what you believe happened. At least E is willing to describe his understanding of the process, and there is merit to his description.. you're just worshiping a guru, and it's your "game"..
now i suddenly have to ´´understand the process´´---i recall you saying that obsession with how things work doesnt get you anywhere
i have no problem with trying to understand a process. i have a problem when you first state it is futile to try that, and in the next thread you blame me for not doing it.
you believe maybe you went out for groceries the other day
but that was only your interpretation of what happened, GURUDZJI
it was just some atoms swirling around
i am not indian and i do not worship
what is your purpose in being here on the forum?
sunshine......a short film clip I tucked back in my mind, multipurpose, good place to use here, almost as good as "This too will pass"......."I never bother about the little things". (twb Tzu) ..........(Point of No Return, American incarnation of the French film La Femm Nikita, advice of Bridget Fonda (assassin in training)'s mentor which she later had to use to save her own life)..... sdp |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2014 11:21:14 GMT -5
I've read this over a couple of times and can't make heads or tails of it. I'm assuming the "you" in there is a general 'you', eh? Cause I don't know someone like that. If volition is seen through, then 'you' aren't concluding volition anymore. If you understand the structure and content of identity, you're no longer building on it. So I don't see where something that's known is hidden. If it's known, it's known. You're messing with my use of the word 'innocence'. Not that I remember. Seeking is effort-ful. So you're saying that seekers can be sincere, they're just all headed in the wrong (efforting) direction? Sorry to have bothered you. Now, for the life of me E, I don't get why you'd just shut Quinn down like that. The conversation that was happening there between the two of you, was really interesting....and lord, knows, there's not a whole lot of action on the forum these days. She makes some really sound points (and I might add, made all of them with civility........could even say, even demonstrating that 'sincerity' you are so fond of too!) Her last point in particular, imo, deserves a sincere, direct and honest answer. This is a good example in my estimation, of how you become dismissive of someone when pressed to elaborate upon and explain points where you seem to have contradicted yourself. When you simply cannot answer back without admitting the contradiction, you resort to the likes of, "Sorry to have bothered you,"....or claims of insanity or lack of sincerity in the one asking. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 14, 2014 1:25:21 GMT -5
It's one thing to be good at hiding stuff, and quite another to be good at hiding stuff from yourself. Hehe. It's not really possible to hide something from yourself or not know what you know. In order to believe that it is possible, you have to imagine there are two of you; one that hid something and one that's trying to find it. There's just one mind in the individual, and when that's accepted it also has to be accepted that you can't lie to yourself or hide anything from yourself. Once that's clear, it's also clear that all attempts to find it are really a game of pretending to not know what you clearly do know. This is the significance of "To thine own self be true." All of this searching and efforting is a game of pretend. You already know you are not separate, not a mind/body, not volitional, not unenlightened (shorry bout that one), because you know you made all that stuff up. Sincerity is important because all seekers lack sincerity by virtue of their seeking that which is not hidden. Hehe - I saw in the other thread you're interested in a response. I was waiting for my initial flip answer to settle down... [flip answer] I hide things from myself all the time, keys being the prime example[/flip answer]. So don't call it hiding. Call it forgetting. Either way, there's an innocence to it that gets lost with saying it's a game or you're not really sincere. Split mind, in this case, doesn't really describe the situation. If I forget something, yes - there is a part of me that actually does remember but I have no access to it right now. Doesn't mean I'm playing a game of forgetting and that I'm imagining two of myself. It's an innocent forgetting. An innocent confusion. All this is to say that efforting and seeking can be absolutely necessary - depends on the person. Maybe throwing cold water on the face (WAKE UP! YOU'RE JUST PRETENDING TO BE ASLEEP!) is also necessary, but I think in most cases it just engages all sorts of ego responses that are already in place - like defensiveness or a sense of unworthiness - and solidifies them. As can be seen every day on Spiritual Teachers Forum. Sincerity and efforting are not mutually exclusive. There's a time for seeking, there's a time for effort and there's a time to relax. What you seem to be saying is that we can innocently and/or absent mindedly forget what we know. That forgetting is the basis of declaring innocence, like the example you gave of forgetting where you put your keys. Without "messing with" your declaration of innocence, I can't say that it's not about forgetting, because to say that is to deny that innocence that depends upon that forgetting. To say there is a part of you that does remember the illusions you create continuously (not the keys you lost), and to say you just don't happen to have access to that part at the moment, is to posit the reality of a split mind, and I insist mind is not split until you purposely split it. I understood your 'drift' just fine, and addressed all of your points in my first response to this. I'm waiting for you to do the same for mine. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 14, 2014 1:39:50 GMT -5
Sorry to have bothered you. Now, for the life of me E, I don't get why you'd just shut Quinn down like that. The conversation that was happening there between the two of you, was really interesting....and lord, knows, there's not a whole lot of action on the forum these days. She makes some really sound points (and I might add, made all of them with civility........could even say, even demonstrating that 'sincerity' you are so fond of too!) Her last point in particular, imo, deserves a sincere, direct and honest answer. This is a good example in my estimation, of how you become dismissive of someone when pressed to elaborate upon and explain points where you seem to have contradicted yourself. When you simply cannot answer back without admitting the contradiction, you resort to the likes of, "Sorry to have bothered you,"....or claims of insanity or lack of sincerity in the one asking. No, that's just your painting. Has nothing to do with me. The only response I could have given to Quinn's post would be to say what I said all over again in hopes that she would respond to it the second time, and that would also surely have made some peeps mad. |
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Post by freejoy on Feb 14, 2014 3:49:26 GMT -5
What about effort to see what exactly the nature of these strings is?The other way I can stretch this analogy is to say that - even when the strings are recognized to have never existed, I'll bet it's still hard to walk at first. Might involve a lot of falling and flailing around. How can there be effort in noticing the nature of something that you imagined to begin with? How can it be hidden? Your saying it was "imagined to begin with" ...as if were a given. The way it seems to me is it was giving to us, like a program without our consent. Not like we freely chose to imagine something. The "effort" comes from finding the programs and and then somehow seeing they are not true. I guess. Edit: Also, the program can be quite a tangled mess. |
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Post by freejoy on Feb 14, 2014 3:56:06 GMT -5
Well, that first is a good question and I see why you ask it. It's helpful to notice that we're running this whole ego-show. But we're extremely expert at it - so expert that there can be important knowledge hidden right there in the middle of the show and we don't even see it. That is, in effect, hidden. Maybe not in actuality, but it may as well be. It's one thing to be good at hiding stuff, and quite another to be good at hiding stuff from yourself. Hehe. It's not really possible to hide something from yourself or not know what you know. In order to believe that it is possible, you have to imagine there are two of you; one that hid something and one that's trying to find it. There's just one mind in the individual, and when that's accepted it also has to be accepted that you can't lie to yourself or hide anything from yourself. Once that's clear, it's also clear that all attempts to find it are really a game of pretending to not know what you clearly do know. This is the significance of "To thine own self be true." All of this searching and efforting is a game of pretend. You already know you are not separate, not a mind/body, not volitional, not unenlightened (shorry bout that one), because you know you made all that stuff up. Sincerity is important because all seekers lack sincerity by virtue of their seeking that which is not hidden.Okay I've heard it call "lost" (you know as in save the lost people) ...if something is lost isn't that basically the same as hidden? |
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Post by quinn on Feb 14, 2014 8:08:37 GMT -5
Hehe - I saw in the other thread you're interested in a response. I was waiting for my initial flip answer to settle down... [flip answer] I hide things from myself all the time, keys being the prime example[/flip answer]. So don't call it hiding. Call it forgetting. Either way, there's an innocence to it that gets lost with saying it's a game or you're not really sincere. Split mind, in this case, doesn't really describe the situation. If I forget something, yes - there is a part of me that actually does remember but I have no access to it right now. Doesn't mean I'm playing a game of forgetting and that I'm imagining two of myself. It's an innocent forgetting. An innocent confusion. All this is to say that efforting and seeking can be absolutely necessary - depends on the person. Maybe throwing cold water on the face (WAKE UP! YOU'RE JUST PRETENDING TO BE ASLEEP!) is also necessary, but I think in most cases it just engages all sorts of ego responses that are already in place - like defensiveness or a sense of unworthiness - and solidifies them. As can be seen every day on Spiritual Teachers Forum. Sincerity and efforting are not mutually exclusive. There's a time for seeking, there's a time for effort and there's a time to relax. What you seem to be saying is that we can innocently and/or absent mindedly forget what we know. That forgetting is the basis of declaring innocence, like the example you gave of forgetting where you put your keys. Not quite what I meant. Forgetting isn't the basis - it's just that the whole illusion/distortion thingy happens innocently. It's fed to us and we munch it down. I like how DeMello puts it:
"You were not allowed to enjoy the solid, nutritious food of life; work and play and the company of people and the pleasures of the senses and the mind. You were given a taste for the drug called Approval, Appreciation, Attention, the drug called Success, Prestige, Power. Having got a taste for these things you became addicted and began to dread their loss. You felt the criticism of others. So you became cravenly dependent on people and lost your freedom. Others now have the power to make you happy or miserable."It seems we disagree about this, but I feel that the undoing of what's described here is something that takes effort. Noticing is important, of course, and takes a radical honesty. And also effort, which is part of the seeker's journey. Is this you sort of agreeing with a point while at the same time punishing me with a double negative? (joke) Where is the 'purposely'? Who would purposely do that? That it's done by us, I have no quibble with - it's the purposely part. I believe I get your drift just fine, too - I welcome a correction if I have it wrong. You seem to be saying that it's impossible to forget the illusion (or have it be hidden) because we're expending effort to create it all the time. All that needs to be done is to see that and stop. And my point is that it's not that simple, that we are exceedingly confused, through innocent conditioning, and there is effort necessary to untangle the confusion before any serious noticing can happen. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 14, 2014 12:00:42 GMT -5
How can there be effort in noticing the nature of something that you imagined to begin with? How can it be hidden? Your saying it was "imagined to begin with" ...as if were a given. The way it seems to me is it was giving to us, like a program without our consent. Not like we freely chose to imagine something. The "effort" comes from finding the programs and and then somehow seeing they are not true. I guess. Edit: Also, the program can be quite a tangled mess. But you weren't programmed without your consent. You were told things that weren't true and for which you never had actual evidence. It's understandable that you believed these things as a child, but you're not a child anymore, and the misunderstanding is being pointed out to you, and you still won't stop believing what you have no evidence for because you want to keep believing. You pretend to believe it's very difficult to realize what's really going on because that way you can keep your beliefs as long as you want while pretending to look for the truth. You enjoy the seeking and the idea that you might find something that gives you what you want without taking away your self created illusions, which of course is impossible. This is why self realization is so rare. It's not because the truth is hard to find, it's because you aren't looking for it. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 14, 2014 12:05:11 GMT -5
It's one thing to be good at hiding stuff, and quite another to be good at hiding stuff from yourself. Hehe. It's not really possible to hide something from yourself or not know what you know. In order to believe that it is possible, you have to imagine there are two of you; one that hid something and one that's trying to find it. There's just one mind in the individual, and when that's accepted it also has to be accepted that you can't lie to yourself or hide anything from yourself. Once that's clear, it's also clear that all attempts to find it are really a game of pretending to not know what you clearly do know. This is the significance of "To thine own self be true." All of this searching and efforting is a game of pretend. You already know you are not separate, not a mind/body, not volitional, not unenlightened (shorry bout that one), because you know you made all that stuff up. Sincerity is important because all seekers lack sincerity by virtue of their seeking that which is not hidden.Okay I've heard it call "lost" (you know as in save the lost people) ...if something is lost isn't that basically the same as hidden? You don't need to be saved. You're not lost, you're hiding. "Amazing Grace How sweet the sound That busted a liar Like me I once was hiding And now I've been caught Was refusing to look But now I see" |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2014 12:20:36 GMT -5
Okay I've heard it call "lost" (you know as in save the lost people) ...if something is lost isn't that basically the same as hidden? You don't need to be saved. You're not lost, you're hiding. "Amazing Grace How sweet the sound That busted a liar Like me I once was hiding And now I've been caught Was refusing to look But now I see" Hey, the guy was a wretch. Don't vaginafoot around by calling him a liar. He was a liar and a wretch perhaps. I don't see why it's so important to distinguish between hiding and lying vs being lost. The guy was lost. Lost in a sea of past conditioning that made the case that captaining slaveships, transporting a cargo of human cattle, was fine. He heard the sweet melody of human voices singing, despite being chained head to toe in eachother's excrement and vomit. The music itself made the case that these were humans worthy of care and respect and love like any other. He had been blind to this fact and ironically it was the sound that gave him his clear seeing. It's one of the beauties, that story. edit: yes, enigma, you are hereby charged with vaginafooting. it's a particular fetish resulting from vulgar programming code. Whatawretch! |
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Post by enigma on Feb 14, 2014 13:00:03 GMT -5
What you seem to be saying is that we can innocently and/or absent mindedly forget what we know. That forgetting is the basis of declaring innocence, like the example you gave of forgetting where you put your keys. Not quite what I meant. Forgetting isn't the basis - it's just that the whole illusion/distortion thingy happens innocently. It's fed to us and we munch it down. I like how DeMello puts it:
"You were not allowed to enjoy the solid, nutritious food of life; work and play and the company of people and the pleasures of the senses and the mind. You were given a taste for the drug called Approval, Appreciation, Attention, the drug called Success, Prestige, Power. Having got a taste for these things you became addicted and began to dread their loss. You felt the criticism of others. So you became cravenly dependent on people and lost your freedom. Others now have the power to make you happy or miserable."DeMello is being gentle with you and treating you like a 5 year old when he tells you that you were 'not allowed' and 'given a drug' and 'became dependent'. He's also given you permission to declare your innocence and plan a 50 year program of recovery. That's not working so well, so I'm blaming you. I'm accusing you of self deception. I'm saying for God's sake get off the dope and deal with your addiction. But understand that it only takes effort because you make it effortful; because you resist doing what you ostensibly want to do. Please notice the insanity of that plan. The only reason you're in the recovery program is that you know it will fail. You know you're in complete control of the outcome. THAT'S why self realization is rare, not because it's difficult and requires heroic effort and dedication. All it requires is self honesty. Well, it's not outside the realm of impossibility.  The purpose is so that you can avoid the truth and go on being addicted to your drug. The confusion is you looking for a way to accept the truth while still hanging onto the lies. Yes, it's a daunting task to devise such a scheme that doesn't leave you knee deep in contradiction and confusion, but the truth is very simple; the lies are false and only the truth is true. Thanks for the discussion. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 14, 2014 13:11:41 GMT -5
You don't need to be saved. You're not lost, you're hiding. "Amazing Grace How sweet the sound That busted a liar Like me I once was hiding And now I've been caught Was refusing to look But now I see" Hey, the guy was a wretch. Don't vaginafoot around by calling him a liar. He was a liar and a wretch perhaps. I don't see why it's so important to distinguish between hiding and lying vs being lost. The guy was lost. Lost in a sea of past conditioning that made the case that captaining slaveships, transporting a cargo of human cattle, was fine. He heard the sweet melody of human voices singing, despite being chained head to toe in eachother's excrement and vomit. The music itself made the case that these were humans worthy of care and respect and love like any other. He had been blind to this fact and ironically it was the sound that gave him his clear seeing. It's one of the beauties, that story. edit: yes, enigma, you are hereby charged with vaginafooting. it's a particular fetish resulting from vulgar programming code. Whatawretch! The person who is hiding will never arrive at his destination no matter how many maps he reads or how many rescue teams are sent after him, while the one who is simply lost is bound to find his way, or be stumbled upon by a crazed wilderness trapper. If there's one thing I'm innocent of, it's vagina-footing around. Hehe. |
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Post by Beingist on Feb 14, 2014 13:21:53 GMT -5
Hey, the guy was a wretch. Don't vaginafoot around by calling him a liar. He was a liar and a wretch perhaps. I don't see why it's so important to distinguish between hiding and lying vs being lost. The guy was lost. Lost in a sea of past conditioning that made the case that captaining slaveships, transporting a cargo of human cattle, was fine. He heard the sweet melody of human voices singing, despite being chained head to toe in eachother's excrement and vomit. The music itself made the case that these were humans worthy of care and respect and love like any other. He had been blind to this fact and ironically it was the sound that gave him his clear seeing. It's one of the beauties, that story. edit: yes, enigma, you are hereby charged with vaginafooting. it's a particular fetish resulting from vulgar programming code. Whatawretch! The person who is hiding will never arrive at his destination no matter how many maps he reads or how many rescue teams are sent after him, while the one who is simply lost is bound to find his way, or be stumbled upon by a crazed wilderness trapper. If there's one thing I'm innocent of, it's vagina-footing around. Hehe. Can't help but wonder if that's anything like ...  |
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