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Post by silence on Feb 18, 2014 20:13:14 GMT -5
perking up ears. I don't think this convo survived the weekend in my teeny little head so I'm sorta starting fresh, so to speak. I assume self deception is happening right now for both of us on many different levels. Seems like a safe bet. The thing I don't get is about 'wanting' self deception. Methinks self-deception happens mostly unconsciously, without any real knowledge of it happening. To say that someone 'wants' to deceive themselves is proposing that there is some greater someone that wants to deceive some lesser someone and that both the greater and the lesser are the same person.
further: I think self deception probably occurs intentionally and non-intentionally. When you speak of 'wanting' some sort of self deception you're talking about intentional self-deception. But what I'm proposing is that the fabric of one's conditioning creates self-deception. Some kinds of self deception happen unknowingly and some don't. Thanks for getting to the heart of the issue. All self deception happens knowingly, which is what makes it self deception. The process by which self deception occurs is an inherent part of effective mental functioning, but it has been misapplied in the case of self deception. What we call the unconscious or subconscious is often erroneously seen as a 'place' we can put information so as to forget it or lose it, at least temporarily, but it's more accurately a process of ignoring. There's nowhere to put information in mind where mind does not have immediate access to it. There is just mind as a function, and no compartments in which information can be hidden. Examples of appropriate use of this function would be walking, talking, playing the piano and not attending to all the billboards along the road on the way to work. If you had to consciously attend to every muscular movement or visual perception, you would quickly become overwhelmed and dysfunctional, and so you learn to ignore much of what you yourself are doing and perceiving. This is not programming, as you can see in the case of ignoring details that are considered insignificant. It is literally a process of purposeful ignoring. As such, what is purposely ignored has to be recognized as unworthy of acknowledging before it can be ignored. In the context of either psychological denial or spiritual truth, this means that we already know that which we are in denial of, and we already know spiritual truth. You've heard teachers say you are already enlightened or that there is nothing to learn. This is what they are referring to, and it's also why there is no path and why all practices are a sham. Finally, it's also why self realization is as rare as hen's teeth. It means you are in complete control of whether or not you awaken, and you choose not to because it would collapse your inner world, and you already know this. Because it would collapse your inner world is precisely it. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2014 1:53:42 GMT -5
SDP: Let's say that you imagined that your body was operated by invisible strings dangling down from the sky. You imagine that you are a puppet on strings being manipulated by God or some superhuman entity. This idea is erroneous, but you imagine it so strongly that it feels like your legs and arms are being raised and lowered by such strings. At some point you realize that the idea of imaginary strings is an imaginary idea, and you become free of that idea. Would it then be correct to say, "During the time that I thought I was a puppet my body was manipulated by strings?" No, because you would realize that you had been entertaining an illusion at that time and that no such strings ever existed. It is the same situation with the idea that effort has to be made to shift attention or DO anything in order to MAKE something happen regarding self-realization. After the see-er is seen through, it becomes obvious that the entire idea of effort involved a fundamental misunderstanding. Consequently, people talk about this from two different perspectives. Sometimes Niz told seekers that enormous effort was required for him to keep his concentration focused upon the I AM, and he encouraged them to do likewise. At other times he told seekers that no effort was ever involved. In both cases he was pointing to the same thing in different ways. I guess I'm always asking, here, in some manner, when somebody new comes to you, new but very sincere, hungry, desperate, what do you say or do to help them? It seems that everything (here, E, zd, empty..even Tzu, although he seems to think he's saying something different) boils down to, sorry kid, you're on your own....nobody can really help you.......and here it is again.......... Change your example just a little, and, IM vhO, you show a real, actual problem. We are puppets, but the strings are not tied to God or some superhuman entity. The strings are tied to past influences, mostly people you encountered who formed your personality, stuff copied in your brain, recordings you play back and think they are a genuine independent you. Somebody just said that 'we' are not data, we are a moving process (laughter, page 3). Ego is constituted of stored information, it's a dead, non-living thing. We are like characters in a novel, they seem very real when we are reading, but they're just squiggles on a page. We are just gazillions of synaptic-off & on-switches. Events in life activate the stored data which constitutes ego, tugs on our strings, pushes our buttons. For me, seeing that ego is an illusion doesn't cut the strings. That was my point, my reason for putting it in brain/neural-network terms. To change ego you have to change the neural structure of the brain. That's not done just by seeing that "I" am not real. That is not done until someone pushes your buttons and you don't react in the same manner you used to. This is what I mean by disengaging the gears. Now, if all of you people here are there, I'm all for you, well and good. But I also think that if you get to that point you can offer real help to *new* people. But I don't see that here........I see people on the shore watching drowning people and saying....hey dude.....you'd better learn to swim pretty quick or you've had it....... I might be wrong, but that's what I see......here....... All I hear here is, dude, you're not really drowning...... And from everybody else (here) I get (by default if nothing else), yea......you must be right........even though it really feels like I'm drowning....I must really be OK........ sdp Drowning is cool....makes ya feel alive...wakes ya up...alertness is good....use it....use the anger, the frustration...stoke the fire until its roaring...make it a white hot flame that consumes everything, but don't let it come to rest anywhere....just use it to be piercingly alert and alive in this moment....that is the Way. Have you ever really looked at Niz's eye's in those youtube video's....now THAT was a man on fire! |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 19, 2014 8:19:55 GMT -5
perking up ears. I don't think this convo survived the weekend in my teeny little head so I'm sorta starting fresh, so to speak. I assume self deception is happening right now for both of us on many different levels. Seems like a safe bet. The thing I don't get is about 'wanting' self deception. Methinks self-deception happens mostly unconsciously, without any real knowledge of it happening. To say that someone 'wants' to deceive themselves is proposing that there is some greater someone that wants to deceive some lesser someone and that both the greater and the lesser are the same person.
further: I think self deception probably occurs intentionally and non-intentionally. When you speak of 'wanting' some sort of self deception you're talking about intentional self-deception. But what I'm proposing is that the fabric of one's conditioning creates self-deception. Some kinds of self deception happen unknowingly and some don't. Thanks for getting to the heart of the issue. All self deception happens knowingly, which is what makes it self deception. The process by which self deception occurs is an inherent part of effective mental functioning, but it has been misapplied in the case of self deception. What we call the unconscious or subconscious is often erroneously seen as a 'place' we can put information so as to forget it or lose it, at least temporarily, but it's more accurately a process of ignoring. There's nowhere to put information in mind where mind does not have immediate access to it. There is just mind as a function, and no compartments in which information can be hidden. Examples of appropriate use of this function would be walking, talking, playing the piano and not attending to all the billboards along the road on the way to work. If you had to consciously attend to every muscular movement or visual perception, you would quickly become overwhelmed and dysfunctional, and so you learn to ignore much of what you yourself are doing and perceiving. This is not programming, as you can see in the case of ignoring details that are considered insignificant. It is literally a process of purposeful ignoring. As such, what is purposely ignored has to be recognized as unworthy of acknowledging before it can be ignored. In the context of either psychological denial or spiritual truth, this means that we already know that which we are in denial of, and we already know spiritual truth. You've heard teachers say you are already enlightened or that there is nothing to learn. This is what they are referring to, and it's also why there is no path and why all practices are a sham. Finally, it's also why self realization is as rare as hen's teeth. It means you are in complete control of whether or not you awaken, and you choose not to because it would collapse your inner world, and you already know this. Yup. Seeing clearly is effortless. Seeing things that aren't there requires a lot of effort. |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 19, 2014 8:28:01 GMT -5
Calling it purposeful ignoring seems a little severe,I think there's a lot of conditioning involved in the ignoring and this conditioning might be an area that is easier to get at ? It's very easy to 'get at' purposeful ignoring. It's just that folks don't want to because the ignoring has a purpose. In fact, there's no need for a process of 'getting at' something that's being purposely ignored. All that's needed is self honesty. The 'truth' is already known. Look at the cases of denial here on the forum. There is no process they need to go through to remove the denial. It's just a matter of not doing that anymore, which is the meaning of effortlessness in a spiritual context. No amount of pointing to WIBIGO is effective because what is pointed out was never hidden in the first place. The ignore-ance continues because the intention is to ignore.Excellent observation. Seeing clearly is effortless. Denial is efforting. Therefore giraffing his efforting. And the larger the herd of giraffes, the more hard work and effort has been applied. That's why giraffers insist on paths and practices to awakening/enlightenment. They think they have to earn it too.  |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 19, 2014 8:46:14 GMT -5
That deserves to be written in purple  Ahh,.. that's very very interesting. I've been having these little "flicks" of experience when things get quieter that usual. It's like things get slower and slower and almost come to a complete stop, and then just on that edge there is a little flick back into movement. There is a sense that things wouldn't start up again if the complete stop happened, an "edge of the precipice" type feeling, but its very subtle. Stay away from those funny mushrooms, Earnest!  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2014 11:04:38 GMT -5
So if we're talking Truth-Realization and the Truth that is being referred to with that is what is being denied for the purposes of maintaining Maxland virtual theme park. The pretenses by which Maxland are founded can not coexist without an ongoing process of self-deception which denies Self (insert label of choice, or no label). But you're saying that this process, the maintenance and polishing of pretenses and simultaneous denial of the Truth, is all out in the open. The out-in-the-open/wanting aspect is not what it seems like from here. But the answer to that would be that there are critical functions of the process of maintaining a person that involve denying the presence of a need for self-deception. In the same way that it is essential to filter out 99% of the stimuli in order to properly drive a car. Denial of self-deception, denial of dishonesty, denial of insincerity -- all these are essential ingredients to maintaining a sense of self. Precisely. You got it. That there is an ongoing process of self deception is an important point. There's no need to dig up past beliefs and find out what went horribly wrong. It's all going horribly wrong right now, and the beliefs are being grasped now because they are preferred illusions. That's why teachers point to the living truth right here and now in this moment and don't send you off to deal with your childhood issues. Yes, it's all out in the open in the same way that typing on the keyboard is all out in the open, and yet you ignore almost all of the complex muscular contractions involved in that process. You wouldn't be able to tell us how you do it, and yet you are doing it, and doing it purposely. Before we get too far along, I should reiterate that the idea that we are required to consciously acknowledge our actions and declare our choices before they can happen is erroneous. That pattern of conscious authorship is just part of the process of maintaining the illusion of volition. Hencely, you do not need to be consciously contemplating what you know and do in order for you to know and do it. At the same time, nothing is happening without your awareness because it is your awareness that drives it. Yes it makes sense that the free will/volition thing is a strong theme in the illusion. I'm not sure why you're bringing it up right now, but it has been on my mind recently. Also, that last line "it is your awareness that drives it" is a little much for me to swallow. That's something it seems best discovered, which I'm open to. It's enough at this point to just observe the mindscape and notice what is contributing to the web of illusion and what isn't. Though discerning the two is nothing I'm an expert on, obviously. Yea, that's what I'm going with right now. The conditioning piece is huge though. It's like "you are a person" is hammered away incessantly since before birth, and the mind just has to adjust to that environment. The existential questions naturally arise because something just ain't right. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 19, 2014 12:35:21 GMT -5
Precisely. You got it. That there is an ongoing process of self deception is an important point. There's no need to dig up past beliefs and find out what went horribly wrong. It's all going horribly wrong right now, and the beliefs are being grasped now because they are preferred illusions. That's why teachers point to the living truth right here and now in this moment and don't send you off to deal with your childhood issues. Yes, it's all out in the open in the same way that typing on the keyboard is all out in the open, and yet you ignore almost all of the complex muscular contractions involved in that process. You wouldn't be able to tell us how you do it, and yet you are doing it, and doing it purposely. Before we get too far along, I should reiterate that the idea that we are required to consciously acknowledge our actions and declare our choices before they can happen is erroneous. That pattern of conscious authorship is just part of the process of maintaining the illusion of volition. Hencely, you do not need to be consciously contemplating what you know and do in order for you to know and do it. At the same time, nothing is happening without your awareness because it is your awareness that drives it. Yes it makes sense that the free will/volition thing is a strong theme in the illusion. I'm not sure why you're bringing it up right now, but it has been on my mind recently. Also, that last line "it is your awareness that drives it" is a little much for me to swallow. That's something it seems best discovered, which I'm open to. It's enough at this point to just observe the mindscape and notice what is contributing to the web of illusion and what isn't. Though discerning the two is nothing I'm an expert on, obviously. Yea, that's what I'm going with right now. The conditioning piece is huge though. It's like "you are a person" is hammered away incessantly since before birth, and the mind just has to adjust to that environment. The existential questions naturally arise because something just ain't right. Yeah, in line with our topic, the questions arise because the game doesn't work so well anymore. The reason conceptual understanding never really changes anything is that mind has no faith in it's own ideas. Mind knows it's deceiving itself at every turn, and so there's this sense that although ideas can be useful, and we're always looking for ones that make us feel better, they can't really be trusted. Of course, we pretend that we know some stuff for certain, but it's just part of the game. So we go through life attaching ourselves to ideas that make us feel good and safe and powerful, but we don't really believe we know what's going on, and so those ideas don't really serve their purpose after a while. I think for many this manifests as a sense of being tired of living a lie. |
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Post by earnest on Feb 19, 2014 18:03:13 GMT -5
Ahh,.. that's very very interesting. I've been having these little "flicks" of experience when things get quieter that usual. It's like things get slower and slower and almost come to a complete stop, and then just on that edge there is a little flick back into movement. There is a sense that things wouldn't start up again if the complete stop happened, an "edge of the precipice" type feeling, but its very subtle. Stay away from those funny mushrooms, Earnest! I tried,.. but the elves won't take no for an answer,... |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 19, 2014 20:22:54 GMT -5
Stay away from those funny mushrooms, Earnest! I tried,.. but the elves won't take no for an answer,... You hafta nlpee them.  |
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Post by freejoy on Feb 21, 2014 2:15:39 GMT -5
I watch this new video. I'm not sure about all the talk here as this video we might have to condition our brains before we can get enlightened.
I was wondering about how being aware of awareness would condition the brain according to this video.
Thanks
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Post by freejoy on Feb 22, 2014 2:51:30 GMT -5
It seems what is being said here on this tread is that us unenlightened ones are lying to ourselves. Some seem to think we are doing this unconsciously and some seem to think we are doing this consciously. I wonder if the enlightened ones here after becoming enlightened did they realize they were lying to themselves and if so did they realize they were knowingly lying to themselves or was it unconscious?
Also if one IS lying to themselves why would they lie?
The guy in the above video seems the think the brain 'sometimes' needs to be conditioned for enlightenment.
It seems to me most of the enlightened people go through much agony before they became enlightened.
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Post by enigma on Feb 22, 2014 3:57:15 GMT -5
It seems what is being said here on this tread is that us unenlightened ones are lying to ourselves. Some seem to think we are doing this unconsciously and some seem to think we are doing this consciously. I wonder if the enlightened ones here after becoming enlightened did they realize they were lying to themselves and if so did they realize they were knowingly lying to themselves or was it unconscious? Also if one IS lying to themselves why would they lie? The guy in the above video seems the think the brain 'sometimes' needs to be conditioned for enlightenment. It seems to me most of the enlightened people go through much agony before they became enlightened. Whether or not one knew of their self deception before acknowledging it is actually irrelevant to the one acknowledging it, and so it may not even be noticed, but it IS relevant to those who have not acknowledged it. Are you serious about this question: "Also if one IS lying to themselves why would they lie?" |
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Post by freejoy on Feb 22, 2014 9:36:02 GMT -5
It seems what is being said here on this tread is that us unenlightened ones are lying to ourselves. Some seem to think we are doing this unconsciously and some seem to think we are doing this consciously. I wonder if the enlightened ones here after becoming enlightened did they realize they were lying to themselves and if so did they realize they were knowingly lying to themselves or was it unconscious? Also if one IS lying to themselves why would they lie? The guy in the above video seems the think the brain 'sometimes' needs to be conditioned for enlightenment. It seems to me most of the enlightened people go through much agony before they became enlightened. Whether or not one knew of their self deception before acknowledging it is actually irrelevant to the one acknowledging it, and so it may not even be noticed, but it IS relevant to those who have not acknowledged it. Are you serious about this question: "Also if one IS lying to themselves why would they lie?" Yes, I'm serious about the question. But I think it would be because of some fear. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 22, 2014 10:47:55 GMT -5
Whether or not one knew of their self deception before acknowledging it is actually irrelevant to the one acknowledging it, and so it may not even be noticed, but it IS relevant to those who have not acknowledged it. Are you serious about this question: "Also if one IS lying to themselves why would they lie?" Yes, I'm serious about the question. But I think it would be because of some fear. Yeah. |
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Post by laughter on Feb 22, 2014 13:35:42 GMT -5
Ahh,.. that's very very interesting. I've been having these little "flicks" of experience when things get quieter that usual. It's like things get slower and slower and almost come to a complete stop, and then just on that edge there is a little flick back into movement. There is a sense that things wouldn't start up again if the complete stop happened, an "edge of the precipice" type feeling, but its very subtle. Stay away from those funny mushrooms, Earnest! That cloud looks comfy 'dash! |
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