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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 7, 2014 20:09:36 GMT -5
This is partly a response to a current thread.
Take a clean white piece of typing paper. This essentially represents our primordial nature, pure, clean, unconditioned, attentive, aware. Everything that enters the brain/body through the five senses is recorded in the neural structure of the brain. For each impression that enters, each sound, each touch, each taste, each image and each smell, draw a line on that clean paper. Eventually that clean paper gets completely covered over, no white showing. This represents our ego. Now, the clean white paper still exists under all that ink and lead, in and of itself, it's unobstructed. That clean white paper represents our true self, variously called Buddha-Mind, no-mind, no-self, Self, the unborn or who you were before your parents were born.
So, what happens between birth and about six years of age? We forget our real nature and tie our identity to the contents of our neural structure, we become our ego. Thomas Merton called this mistaken identity, false self. Most people live the remainder of their lives through this false sense of self. What happens to all the energy that enters the organism after ego is formed? It goes into keeping ego alive, ego takes everything, ego takes all our attention, all of our awareness.
The question on the table is, Is there a way to get back to living through our uncorrupted nature?
sdp
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Post by silence on Feb 7, 2014 20:57:05 GMT -5
This is partly a response to a current thread. Take a clean white piece of typing paper. This essentially represents our primordial nature, pure, clean, unconditioned, attentive, aware. Everything that enters the brain/body through the five senses is recorded in the neural structure of the brain. For each impression that enters, each sound, each touch, each taste, each image and each smell, draw a line on that clean paper. Eventually that clean paper gets completely covered over, no white showing. This represents our ego. Now, the clean white paper still exists under all that ink and lead, in and of itself, it's unobstructed. That clean white paper represents our true self, variously called Buddha-Mind, no-mind, no-self, Self, the unborn or who you were before your parents were born. So, what happens between birth and about six years of age? We forget our real nature and tie our identity to the contents of our neural structure, we become our ego. Thomas Merton called this mistaken identity, false self. Most people live the remainder of their lives through this false sense of self. What happens to all the energy that enters the organism after ego is formed? It goes into keeping ego alive, ego takes everything, ego takes all our attention, all of our awareness. The question on the table is, Is there a way to get back to living through our uncorrupted nature? sdp Have someone hit you in the head with a really big pan. |
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 7, 2014 23:26:47 GMT -5
This is partly a response to a current thread. Take a clean white piece of typing paper. This essentially represents our primordial nature, pure, clean, unconditioned, attentive, aware. Everything that enters the brain/body through the five senses is recorded in the neural structure of the brain. For each impression that enters, each sound, each touch, each taste, each image and each smell, draw a line on that clean paper. Eventually that clean paper gets completely covered over, no white showing. This represents our ego. Now, the clean white paper still exists under all that ink and lead, in and of itself, it's unobstructed. That clean white paper represents our true self, variously called Buddha-Mind, no-mind, no-self, Self, the unborn or who you were before your parents were born. So, what happens between birth and about six years of age? We forget our real nature and tie our identity to the contents of our neural structure, we become our ego. Thomas Merton called this mistaken identity, false self. Most people live the remainder of their lives through this false sense of self. What happens to all the energy that enters the organism after ego is formed? It goes into keeping ego alive, ego takes everything, ego takes all our attention, all of our awareness. The question on the table is, Is there a way to get back to living through our uncorrupted nature? sdp Pay attention, unconditionally.. be genuinely curious about what is actually happening. Let go of attachments, all of them.. if they are real, you don't need to be attached, real is always present.. if you think you know the answer, you don't, let it go.. you never have to 'think' about what 'is', it is self-evident.. it is realized in the experience 'with' it, not in the mind's thinking 'about' it.. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2014 5:01:13 GMT -5
This is partly a response to a current thread. Take a clean white piece of typing paper. This essentially represents our primordial nature, pure, clean, unconditioned, attentive, aware. Everything that enters the brain/body through the five senses is recorded in the neural structure of the brain. For each impression that enters, each sound, each touch, each taste, each image and each smell, draw a line on that clean paper. Eventually that clean paper gets completely covered over, no white showing. This represents our ego. Now, the clean white paper still exists under all that ink and lead, in and of itself, it's unobstructed. That clean white paper represents our true self, variously called Buddha-Mind, no-mind, no-self, Self, the unborn or who you were before your parents were born. So, what happens between birth and about six years of age? We forget our real nature and tie our identity to the contents of our neural structure, we become our ego. Thomas Merton called this mistaken identity, false self. Most people live the remainder of their lives through this false sense of self. What happens to all the energy that enters the organism after ego is formed? It goes into keeping ego alive, ego takes everything, ego takes all our attention, all of our awareness. The question on the table is, Is there a way to get back to living through our uncorrupted nature? sdp Pay attention, unconditionally.. be genuinely curious about what is actually happening. Let go of attachments, all of them.. if they are real, you don't need to be attached, real is always present.. if you think you know the answer, you don't, let it go.. you never have to 'think' about what 'is', it is self-evident.. it is realized in the experience 'with' it, not in the mind's thinking 'about' it..
the usual nonsense from GURU TZU, and his greatest admirer, the perfect Mr Tzu here you can all read how evasive mr Tzu is , a thing he repeatedly accuses everybody else of Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/user/1235/recent#ixzz2sitvBwXgTzu rehearse this song in your mind before you make any posting and then go somewhere where i am not |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 8, 2014 7:37:35 GMT -5
SDP: Yes, there is a way to recover the innocence you describe, and to become psychologically unified with "what is." If attention is shifted away from thoughts to direct sensory perception (what can be seen, heard, felt, etc), freedom from thoughts can be attained. The lines to which you refer will remain, but they will become transparent. The lines will then be seen as simply another function of the primordial. What you are is the Infinite momentarily manifesting as a human being. When the body dies, You will still be here, and it is possible for this to be directly realized. Look around. If the intellect is quiescent, where can a boundary be found? If the intellect is quiescent, "here" and "there" no longer have meaning. If the intellect is quiescent, the white paper and the lines both disappear, and there is only silent awareness with no inside or outside.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2014 8:00:47 GMT -5
SDP: Yes, there is a way to recover the innocence you describe, and to become psychologically unified with "what is." If attention is shifted away from thoughts to direct sensory perception (what can be seen, heard, felt, etc), freedom from thoughts can be attained. The lines to which you refer will remain, but they will become transparent. The lines will then be seen as simply another function of the primordial. What you are is the Infinite momentarily manifesting as a human being. When the body dies, You will still be here, and it is possible for this to be directly realized. Look around. If the intellect is quiescent, where can a boundary be found? If the intellect is quiescent, "here" and "there" no longer have meaning. If the intellect is quiescent, the white paper and the lines both disappear, and there is only silent awareness with no inside or outside. I'm beginning to wonder if the history of Western philosophy is one of "unquiescent" intellects.  |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 8, 2014 10:42:52 GMT -5
SDP: Yes, there is a way to recover the innocence you describe, and to become psychologically unified with "what is." If attention is shifted away from thoughts to direct sensory perception (what can be seen, heard, felt, etc), freedom from thoughts can be attained. The lines to which you refer will remain, but they will become transparent. The lines will then be seen as simply another function of the primordial. What you are is the Infinite momentarily manifesting as a human being. When the body dies, You will still be here, and it is possible for this to be directly realized. Look around. If the intellect is quiescent, where can a boundary be found? If the intellect is quiescent, "here" and "there" no longer have meaning. If the intellect is quiescent, the white paper and the lines both disappear, and there is only silent awareness with no inside or outside. I'm beginning to wonder if the history of Western philosophy is one of "unquiescent" intellects. Bingo! |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 8, 2014 10:53:03 GMT -5
SDP: Yes, there is a way to recover the innocence you describe, and to become psychologically unified with "what is." If attention is shifted away from thoughts to direct sensory perception (what can be seen, heard, felt, etc), freedom from thoughts can be attained. The lines to which you refer will remain, but they will become transparent. The lines will then be seen as simply another function of the primordial. What you are is the Infinite momentarily manifesting as a human being. When the body dies, You will still be here, and it is possible for this to be directly realized. Look around. If the intellect is quiescent, where can a boundary be found? If the intellect is quiescent, "here" and "there" no longer have meaning. If the intellect is quiescent, the white paper and the lines both disappear, and there is only silent awareness with no inside or outside. Thanks ZD, that's better than a big pan up-side-the-head.... I have no problem with what you have said. I'm feeling my way to a response to E on the Life is no assignment thread.....needed a fresh start. Over there he again (for the gazillionth time) says, nothing can be done, there is no path to realization, no how, it is effortless. What I find to be effortless is mind wandering aimlessly, daydreaming...watching the clock until quitting time, what will I do tonight, will my team win the game, I'm hungry, can't wait to eat...bla, bla, bla....ya-da, ya-da, ya-da...... I do not find shifting attention from thoughts to direct sensory perception to be effortless (not that you said it is). I find that attention gets continually sucked back into some thought, emotion, person or thing. One is born with attention and awareness just there, watch any newborn baby. This is the meaning of the analogy of the white paper, the unborn, who you were before your parents were born. Awareness uses the neural structure to function through, the neural structure is not the cause of awareness. So I agree, the ending of the brain/body is not the ending of awareness. My purpose is not to argue with E, my point cannot be argued.....just sharing the case for me.....giving a different view....so that if any particular person buys in-to the conceptual idea that "nothing can be done", they don't have to...... Again, I agree that ego can do nothing, but that does not mean that nothing can be done. I just say what can be done is not effortless......... Non-dualism teachers might say nothing can be done. Zen doesn't. Taoism doesn't. Sufism doesn't. Kabbalists don't. Dzogchen doesn't. sdp |
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 8, 2014 11:20:14 GMT -5
SDP: Yes, there is a way to recover the innocence you describe, and to become psychologically unified with "what is." If attention is shifted away from thoughts to direct sensory perception (what can be seen, heard, felt, etc), freedom from thoughts can be attained. The lines to which you refer will remain, but they will become transparent. The lines will then be seen as simply another function of the primordial. What you are is the Infinite momentarily manifesting as a human being. When the body dies, You will still be here, and it is possible for this to be directly realized. Look around. If the intellect is quiescent, where can a boundary be found? If the intellect is quiescent, "here" and "there" no longer have meaning. If the intellect is quiescent, the white paper and the lines both disappear, and there is only silent awareness with no inside or outside. The white paper and the lines do not disappear, they are integrated into your relationship with them.. they are seen/experienced for what they are, part of the happening in which you are also part, whole and complete due to your included participation.. Be well.. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 8, 2014 11:20:21 GMT -5
SDP: Yes, there is a way to recover the innocence you describe, and to become psychologically unified with "what is." If attention is shifted away from thoughts to direct sensory perception (what can be seen, heard, felt, etc), freedom from thoughts can be attained. The lines to which you refer will remain, but they will become transparent. The lines will then be seen as simply another function of the primordial. What you are is the Infinite momentarily manifesting as a human being. When the body dies, You will still be here, and it is possible for this to be directly realized. Look around. If the intellect is quiescent, where can a boundary be found? If the intellect is quiescent, "here" and "there" no longer have meaning. If the intellect is quiescent, the white paper and the lines both disappear, and there is only silent awareness with no inside or outside. Thanks ZD, that's better than a big pan up-side-the-head.... I have no problem with what you have said. I'm feeling my way to a response to E on the Life is no assignment thread.....needed a fresh start. Over there he again (for the gazillionth time) says, nothing can be done, there is no path to realization, no how, it is effortless. I don't say nothing can be done, I say nothing needs to be done. There is nothing to do. That's also why it's effortless. |
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 8, 2014 11:28:08 GMT -5
SDP: Yes, there is a way to recover the innocence you describe, and to become psychologically unified with "what is." If attention is shifted away from thoughts to direct sensory perception (what can be seen, heard, felt, etc), freedom from thoughts can be attained. The lines to which you refer will remain, but they will become transparent. The lines will then be seen as simply another function of the primordial. What you are is the Infinite momentarily manifesting as a human being. When the body dies, You will still be here, and it is possible for this to be directly realized. Look around. If the intellect is quiescent, where can a boundary be found? If the intellect is quiescent, "here" and "there" no longer have meaning. If the intellect is quiescent, the white paper and the lines both disappear, and there is only silent awareness with no inside or outside. Thanks ZD, that's better than a big pan up-side-the-head.... I have no problem with what you have said. I'm feeling my way to a response to E on the Life is no assignment thread.....needed a fresh start. Over there he again (for the gazillionth time) says, nothing can be done, there is no path to realization, no how, it is effortless. What I find to be effortless is mind wandering aimlessly, daydreaming...watching the clock until quitting time, what will I do tonight, will my team win the game, I'm hungry, can't wait to eat...bla, bla, bla....ya-da, ya-da, ya-da...... I do not find shifting attention from thoughts to direct sensory perception to be effortless (not that you said it is). I find that attention gets continually sucked back into some thought, emotion, person or thing. One is born with attention and awareness just there, watch any newborn baby. This is the meaning of the analogy of the white paper, the unborn, who you were before your parents were born. Awareness uses the neural structure to function through, the neural structure is not the cause of awareness. So I agree, the ending of the brain/body is not the ending of awareness. My purpose is not to argue with E, my point cannot be argued.....just sharing the case for me.....giving a different view....so that if any particular person buys in-to the conceptual idea that "nothing can be done", they don't have to...... Again, I agree that ego can do nothing, but that does not mean that nothing can be done. I just say what can be done is not effortless......... Non-dualism teachers might say nothing can be done. Zen doesn't. Taoism doesn't. Sufism doesn't. Kabbalists don't. Dzogchen doesn't. sdp Hi SDP: if you have the inclination, consider the understanding that has evolved for 'me', relative to the bolded question: look into the eyes of those you encounter, that is who i am before my parents are born, Life happening, and i am still that happening.. |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 8, 2014 11:34:06 GMT -5
SDP: Yes, there is a way to recover the innocence you describe, and to become psychologically unified with "what is." If attention is shifted away from thoughts to direct sensory perception (what can be seen, heard, felt, etc), freedom from thoughts can be attained. The lines to which you refer will remain, but they will become transparent. The lines will then be seen as simply another function of the primordial. What you are is the Infinite momentarily manifesting as a human being. When the body dies, You will still be here, and it is possible for this to be directly realized. Look around. If the intellect is quiescent, where can a boundary be found? If the intellect is quiescent, "here" and "there" no longer have meaning. If the intellect is quiescent, the white paper and the lines both disappear, and there is only silent awareness with no inside or outside. Thanks ZD, that's better than a big pan up-side-the-head.... I have no problem with what you have said. I'm feeling my way to a response to E on the Life is no assignment thread.....needed a fresh start. Over there he again (for the gazillionth time) says, nothing can be done, there is no path to realization, no how, it is effortless. What I find to be effortless is mind wandering aimlessly, daydreaming...watching the clock until quitting time, what will I do tonight, will my team win the game, I'm hungry, can't wait to eat...bla, bla, bla....ya-da, ya-da, ya-da...... I do not find shifting attention from thoughts to direct sensory perception to be effortless (not that you said it is). I find that attention gets continually sucked back into some thought, emotion, person or thing. One is born with attention and awareness just there, watch any newborn baby. This is the meaning of the analogy of the white paper, the unborn, who you were before your parents were born. Awareness uses the neural structure to function through, the neural structure is not the cause of awareness. So I agree, the ending of the brain/body is not the ending of awareness. My purpose is not to argue with E, my point cannot be argued.....just sharing the case for me.....giving a different view....so that if any particular person buys in-to the conceptual idea that "nothing can be done", they don't have to...... Again, I agree that ego can do nothing, but that does not mean that nothing can be done. I just say what can be done is not effortless......... Non-dualism teachers might say nothing can be done. Zen doesn't. Taoism doesn't. Sufism doesn't. Kabbalists don't. Dzogchen doesn't. sdp Understood, but E. is simply talking about this issue in a different way. Thirty years ago when this body/mind began shifting attention away from thoughts, again and again, day after day, it SEEMED as if enormous effort was being expended (by a person--"me") and that such effort was necessary for such shifting of attention to occur. It felt as if "I" was an entity "in here" making an effort to see the world ("out there") non-conceptually. As various existential questions were seen through, it felt as if "I" was an entity who was seeing through those questions. Only when Source saw through the illusion of selfhood did it become obvious that there was never a person doing anything and that all apparent past effort was an illusion. When E. writes that "nothing can be done," he is saying, in essence, that who you THINK you are cannot do anything because who you THINK you are is imaginary. Source, or Being, is the only actor on the stage. The cosmos, and that which witnesses the cosmos, is an undivided Whole. Non-dualism teachers do not encourage the idea of effort because it usually reinforces the idea that there is someone who can make an effort, and there isn't. IMO it is more efficacious to simply remind people that shifting attention away from thoughts is sufficient. If a thought arises, such as, "I must make a greater effort," the recognition of that thought is a reminder to shift attention away from either the thought of "I" or the thought of "effort" to what can be seen or heard here and now. Looking without touching is key. |
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Post by silence on Feb 8, 2014 11:52:04 GMT -5
Thanks ZD, that's better than a big pan up-side-the-head.... I thought you wanted doing suggestions? Don't worry, it's from an ancient sufi text, I think. I do not find shifting attention from thoughts to direct sensory perception to be effortless (not that you said it is). I find that attention gets continually sucked back into some thought, emotion, person or thing. The answer is simple. You're interested in those things you keep getting sucked back into. You're also interested in trying to escape them. What now? |
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Post by laughter on Feb 8, 2014 12:05:45 GMT -5
SDP: Yes, there is a way to recover the innocence you describe, and to become psychologically unified with "what is." If attention is shifted away from thoughts to direct sensory perception (what can be seen, heard, felt, etc), freedom from thoughts can be attained. The lines to which you refer will remain, but they will become transparent. The lines will then be seen as simply another function of the primordial. What you are is the Infinite momentarily manifesting as a human being. When the body dies, You will still be here, and it is possible for this to be directly realized. Look around. If the intellect is quiescent, where can a boundary be found? If the intellect is quiescent, "here" and "there" no longer have meaning. If the intellect is quiescent, the white paper and the lines both disappear, and there is only silent awareness with no inside or outside. I'm beginning to wonder if the history of Western philosophy is one of "unquiescent" intellects.  Western Philosophers:  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 8, 2014 15:33:07 GMT -5
Thanks ZD, that's better than a big pan up-side-the-head.... I have no problem with what you have said. I'm feeling my way to a response to E on the Life is no assignment thread.....needed a fresh start. Over there he again (for the gazillionth time) says, nothing can be done, there is no path to realization, no how, it is effortless. What I find to be effortless is mind wandering aimlessly, daydreaming...watching the clock until quitting time, what will I do tonight, will my team win the game, I'm hungry, can't wait to eat...bla, bla, bla....ya-da, ya-da, ya-da...... I do not find shifting attention from thoughts to direct sensory perception to be effortless (not that you said it is). I find that attention gets continually sucked back into some thought, emotion, person or thing. One is born with attention and awareness just there, watch any newborn baby. This is the meaning of the analogy of the white paper, the unborn, who you were before your parents were born. Awareness uses the neural structure to function through, the neural structure is not the cause of awareness. So I agree, the ending of the brain/body is not the ending of awareness. My purpose is not to argue with E, my point cannot be argued.....just sharing the case for me.....giving a different view....so that if any particular person buys in-to the conceptual idea that "nothing can be done", they don't have to...... Again, I agree that ego can do nothing, but that does not mean that nothing can be done. I just say what can be done is not effortless......... Non-dualism teachers might say nothing can be done. Zen doesn't. Taoism doesn't. Sufism doesn't. Kabbalists don't. Dzogchen doesn't. sdp Understood, but E. is simply talking about this issue in a different way. Thirty years ago when this body/mind began shifting attention away from thoughts, again and again, day after day, it SEEMED as if enormous effort was being expended (by a person--"me") and that such effort was necessary for such shifting of attention to occur. It felt as if "I" was an entity "in here" making an effort to see the world ("out there") non-conceptually. As various existential questions were seen through, it felt as if "I" was an entity who was seeing through those questions. Only when Source saw through the illusion of selfhood did it become obvious that there was never a person doing anything and that all apparent past effort was an illusion. When E. writes that "nothing can be done," he is saying, in essence, that who you THINK you are cannot do anything because who you THINK you are is imaginary. Source, or Being, is the only actor on the stage. The cosmos, and that which witnesses the cosmos, is an undivided Whole. Non-dualism teachers do not encourage the idea of effort because it usually reinforces the idea that there is someone who can make an effort, and there isn't. IMO it is more efficacious to simply remind people that shifting attention away from thoughts is sufficient. If a thought arises, such as, "I must make a greater effort," the recognition of that thought is a reminder to shift attention away from either the thought of "I" or the thought of "effort" to what can be seen or heard here and now. Looking without touching is key. Thanks zd, I think what you have said is very clear.....except....maybe......what do you mean that "Source saw through the illusion of selfhood?" .......I'm reminded of "like a mosquito biting an iron bull". Wouldn't it, for Source, be the case that there never was an illusion of selfhood? And, was it not the case that "all apparent past effort" was necessary, for you (but maybe not for everyone)? .........I don't think the "iron bull" gives up so easily......... There is a great novel on Zen called The Ronin by William Dale Jennings, long story short (spoiling a good read...but not really). A very nasty Ronin goes on a rampage of killing and rape. One murder is of a monk, who, after being sliced in two halves tells the Ronin to be here, on this spot, one year from today (speaks to the Ronin before falling dead). Throughout the year the Ronin cannot forget what the monk said, decides to be there, on the appointed day. Another monk is there to meet the Ronin. Eventually, after the encounter, the Ronin becomes a holy man. Eventually, the Ronin finds a chore that simply needs to be done, the now holy (enlightened) Ronin decides to dig a tunnel through a mountain as a passageway to help people from making a long and arduous journey around the mountain. In the meantime, the child of one of the Ronin's rape and murder victims decides to devote his whole life to avenging his mother's rape and death. The son eventually finds a great master swordsman who will teach him, son grows up and becomes a swordsman who would be equal to the Ronin's skill. Son eventually finds the Ronin digging the tunnel, challenging him to a duel. The Ronin says that he will fight the Son, when the tunnel has been finished. The Son awaits patiently, at first. Eventually he begins to help the Ronin dig....as it will hasten the day of the duel. After a rather long period of time (don't recall exactly how long...it's been years since I read the book....but I want to says it's been years)...they break through the mountain, the job has been finished...so it seems. However, they have broken through...to another mountain...the intended passageway is not yet complete.... The novel ends with the Ronin walking away....(he is done, can't dig anymore, will not dig anymore. [Why?]. Son of the raped womam begins to implore him, we must finish to job!!!! Ronin just keeps walking away.......... A very cool little book.....but not for the faint of heart.....pretty violent in places...... ............... If one tries to help a caterpillar to become a butterfly by prying open a chrysalis, the 1/2 caterpillar 1/2 butterfly will simply die. For me, teaching that nothing can be done is prying open a chrysalis......or at least keeping a caterpillar from becoming a chrysalis...... And.....I consider shifting attention away from any manifestation of ego, not happening without effort.......in my experience.....but it's an effort that ego cannot possibly make........but eventually, the effort becomes priceless...... Maybe on the other shore, one could say effortless.........?........... Does the butterfly look back at the caterpillar and say there was an illusion of selfhood? I'd say no....he sees process........ sdp |
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