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Post by tzujanli on Feb 12, 2014 7:12:11 GMT -5
Can't see past your beliefs... really after that 'Tzu' illusion, aren't you?.. you're stuck, let it go..
that is actually where the power to create comes from in the first place
tzu is a fraid to move in a world where everything is constantly moving
 I'm sorry you are attached to that illusion, your belief about 'Tzu' is not accurate.. but, you seem to enjoy your 'aim' at 'Tzu', so continue the illusion, until it stops serving you.. what do you think you want from this 'aim' at Tzu? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2014 7:28:18 GMT -5
Silence is great, stillness is great...but you need an aim...life is dynamic..it moves..move along with it ...dream dreams, create myhts and miracles..that is all possible and I can still get to that quiet place whenever I want...
that is actually where the power to create comes from in the first place
tzu is a fraid to move in a world where everything is constantly moving
I'm sorry you are attached to that illusion, your belief about 'Tzu' is not accurate.. but, you seem to enjoy your 'aim' at 'Tzu', so continue the illusion, until it stops serving you.. what do you think you want from this 'aim' at Tzu?
it falls outside your belief system, you sit in the doldrums, enjoying exactly what your guru said you would, good for you, just dont feed others with your distorted view of ´´reality´´, as the sole truth
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Post by quinn on Feb 12, 2014 7:38:20 GMT -5
Well, that first is a good question and I see why you ask it. It's helpful to notice that we're running this whole ego-show. But we're extremely expert at it - so expert that there can be important knowledge hidden right there in the middle of the show and we don't even see it. That is, in effect, hidden. Maybe not in actuality, but it may as well be. It's one thing to be good at hiding stuff, and quite another to be good at hiding stuff from yourself. Hehe. It's not really possible to hide something from yourself or not know what you know. In order to believe that it is possible, you have to imagine there are two of you; one that hid something and one that's trying to find it. There's just one mind in the individual, and when that's accepted it also has to be accepted that you can't lie to yourself or hide anything from yourself. Once that's clear, it's also clear that all attempts to find it are really a game of pretending to not know what you clearly do know. This is the significance of "To thine own self be true." All of this searching and efforting is a game of pretend. You already know you are not separate, not a mind/body, not volitional, not unenlightened (shorry bout that one), because you know you made all that stuff up. Sincerity is important because all seekers lack sincerity by virtue of their seeking that which is not hidden. Hehe - I saw in the other thread you're interested in a response. I was waiting for my initial flip answer to settle down... [flip answer] I hide things from myself all the time, keys being the prime example[/flip answer]. So don't call it hiding. Call it forgetting. Either way, there's an innocence to it that gets lost with saying it's a game or you're not really sincere. Split mind, in this case, doesn't really describe the situation. If I forget something, yes - there is a part of me that actually does remember but I have no access to it right now. Doesn't mean I'm playing a game of forgetting and that I'm imagining two of myself. It's an innocent forgetting. An innocent confusion. All this is to say that efforting and seeking can be absolutely necessary - depends on the person. Maybe throwing cold water on the face (WAKE UP! YOU'RE JUST PRETENDING TO BE ASLEEP!) is also necessary, but I think in most cases it just engages all sorts of ego responses that are already in place - like defensiveness or a sense of unworthiness - and solidifies them. As can be seen every day on Spiritual Teachers Forum. Sincerity and efforting are not mutually exclusive. There's a time for seeking, there's a time for effort and there's a time to relax. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2014 7:45:03 GMT -5
Hi SDP: are you suggesting that blanket generality should be immune from scrutiny? There is clarity, born of a still mind's awareness, and there is the Spiritual Circus of story-tellers and hawkers.. the still-minded awareness is alert, alive, and authentic.. the Circus is bright lights and noise, illusion and confusion..
is that Columbus is back already with stories and treasures, while TZU is still discussing wether the boat is seaworthy, floating in his own dingy in the doldrums, getting upset everytime somebody makes waves, endlessly exclaiming that ´´the ocean is big, the sky is blue and water is wet´´---how profound,
TZU i KNOW that place where you are, (or where you once were) I met you there several times on my journeys across the infinite,remember? at first i thought ´´hey a fellow traveler´´--´´he sits in the doldrums enjoying the blue skies--good for him´´, but then i discovered that he isnt going anywhere at all, and actually is afraid of the water, the wind and the sky changing the slightest hue or ripple...brrrr
tzu thinks that his ´´one size fits all´´ approach will actually make SDP get an answer to his question..that is rather pathetic, and typical of fake , spiritually impotent Guru types like Brother Tzu, who are afraid to get out onto the real sea, stormy weather and all, and have some fun and adventure, to actually LIVE LIFE, and --or create something--in line with what is happening all the time---CREATION
there are many ways SDP can get an answer, tzu´s ´´way´´ may take him 25 years of steady practice, he´ll end up in the doldrums with tzu.Silence is great, stillness is great...but you need an aim...life is dynamic..it moves..move along with it ...dream dreams, create myhts and miracles..that is all possible and you can still get to that quiet place whenever you want...
SDP ,´(i havent read the whole thread) maybe try asking this deep sincere question before you go to sleep for a week or two or three---you will be astounded, life will present you with an answer in a way i cannot, nobody can, predict.
if india had kept following TZU´s (and ZD,E, Empty and some others here i gather) (shankara, buddha) advice it would still be as lethargic as it was 100 years ago, and all the beautiful and ugly creations you use, like cars and computers, would never even have been invented, because it is all an illusion anyways---
have a nice
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 12, 2014 8:37:03 GMT -5
Silence is great, stillness is great...but you need an aim...life is dynamic..it moves..move along with it ...dream dreams, create myhts and miracles..that is all possible and I can still get to that quiet place whenever I want...
that is actually where the power to create comes from in the first place
Great point sunshine, that one needs an aim. Now most non-dual teachers are going to tell you that an aim is going to come from within the boundary of ego so that still merely perpetuates the illusion, whatever your aim is. I don't agree. You pursue your aim to the end. Maybe it changes, maybe you see that it was an ego-aim, but you move on, find another aim. It's like burning a candle. Eventually you may have an aim that comes from outside the boundary of ego.....and this can be the flame that burns the candle down to nothing.....and you find yourself outside the box, free......
.......and just while I'm here.......I think a lot of what Tzu points out is what I call conceptual non-dualism (the language without the experience, or non-experience, to back it up).......I think it's pretty difficult to make this call......difficult to be accurate with merely little squiggles on the page to go by...........
sdp
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Post by enigma on Feb 12, 2014 12:24:52 GMT -5
Your interpretation of what you're hearing on this forum seems far more pessimistic than is justified. From my POV, the entire universe, which is the real you, is conspiring to help you find the truth. If you resonate with the ATA pointer, then stop indulging in self pity, stop telling "your personal story," and shift attention to what can be seen, heard, or felt. If you resonate with the traditional meditation pointer, then sit down and watch the breathing process. If you resonate with the koan-approach pointer, stop thinking and deeply contemplate whatever questions are bothering you. If you resonate with the "nothing to do" pointer, then contemplate what that phrase is pointing to. Here's a hint. At one time in my life I was consumed by dozens of existential questions, and I got into a deep state of angst while thinking about what appeared to be the meaninglessness of life. In the midst of that angst I entered the military, and during basic training I was kept on a dead run from one activity to the next. I had no time for reflecting about existential issues. Guess what? All of the angst that I had been feeling totally disappeared! It had been caused by incessant thought--by living in my head. All of this only became obvious much later. At the time I only knew that when I entered the military I was feeling depressed and nihilistic, but after several weeks of non-stop physical action and no time for reflective thought, I felt great! This is what Tolle is talking about when he discusses "freedom from the compulsion of incessant thought." If you continue to endlessly indulge in self-centered "poor little me" type thinking, then I guarantee that you'll remain depressed and clueless concerning the big picture, existentially. I suggest getting some regular exercise and going for some long walks while looking at the world around you without imagining anything. Whether its informal ATA, or formal breath awareness, or mantra recitation, or koan contemplation, break the habit of spinning endlessly in reflective thought. Hell, if nothing else, go join the military! They will definitely get you out of your head. In all seriousness, I sometimes feel like a musician who once said, "I practiced playing my musical instrument for 10,000 hours over 20 years, and now people call me a natural genius." I did heavy-duty ATA and contemplation, and went on countless silent retreats for 15 years, and miraculously (ha ha) all of my existential questions were resolved. This is just a story, but it points to something beyond the story. You seem to think that no one cares about your situation and understanding, but why do you think this body/mind, among others, is compelled to ceaselessly write about these existential issues? It is YOU writing to YOU for YOU! There is no one else here. Thanks zd. That's something I could have used 37 years 10 & 1/2 months ago. I have always respected what you post here more than that of anybody else here, nothing has changed that. I got my metaphorical ass kicked just that many years ago.......to the tune of....sort of, "You are a worthless nothing....nothing you think or feel or do is of any ultimate value.....but you can drop that, cease to be identified with that, and find what is of supreme value".......that over a period of some months, then....... I just post stuff.....here. Most of it is hypothetical......in the post above I wasn't speaking about myself.....sorry I got you worked up....although I figure it as compassion...not malice. When I say hypothetical I don't mean insincere, what I post is how I see things, people and their relationship to the universe. I would consider it a waste of time to do otherwise. When I said "new people" I meant new people....not me.... I think non-dual "teaching", in general, is pessimistic, so you are probably dead-on in what you write.....have picked up...pessimistic in the sense of not offering....more.......real.......guidance.....training wheels....?......but anyone else who just happened to drop by would have answer that.......what kind of help they get here.......I keep pushing, here, because a lot of what gets posted by others doesn't fit my experience.....that's mostly the kind of stuff I try to point to........ I didn't think I was exuding so much existential angst.....but I do remember what it was like.....and I have written about it stating it was 38+ years ago.....posting here...on occasion, about that time, always indicating that was then...... One thing I did 38+ years ago to take a break from the incessant mind/emotional-existential-chatter was to just watch my legs while ice skating......it was a nice break...shutting the mind off...a necessary break.....then I learned other stuff....subsequently......... BTW.....I stumbled upon your first book in a used bookstore some years ago...read it...liked it.. catchy title......that was before I encountered you here.....I really seriously considered going to Claymont when you were there for TAT....sorry I didn't go.... sdp I suggest that the nonduality approach seems pessimistic because it essentially says the problem is not that you don't know enough, but that you know too much. Not that you need to find something, but rather lose something. Not that you are too empty, but that you are too full. There are two general directions we can go with our lives. We can work continually toward improving our lives and having better experiences, or we can be free. They aren't, however, mutually exclusive. |
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Post by enigma on Feb 12, 2014 13:04:25 GMT -5
It's one thing to be good at hiding stuff, and quite another to be good at hiding stuff from yourself. Hehe. It's not really possible to hide something from yourself or not know what you know. In order to believe that it is possible, you have to imagine there are two of you; one that hid something and one that's trying to find it. There's just one mind in the individual, and when that's accepted it also has to be accepted that you can't lie to yourself or hide anything from yourself. Once that's clear, it's also clear that all attempts to find it are really a game of pretending to not know what you clearly do know. This is the significance of "To thine own self be true." All of this searching and efforting is a game of pretend. You already know you are not separate, not a mind/body, not volitional, not unenlightened (shorry bout that one), because you know you made all that stuff up. Sincerity is important because all seekers lack sincerity by virtue of their seeking that which is not hidden. Hehe - I saw in the other thread you're interested in a response. I was waiting for my initial flip answer to settle down... [flip answer] I hide things from myself all the time, keys being the prime example[/flip answer]. So don't call it hiding. Call it forgetting. Either way, there's an innocence to it that gets lost with saying it's a game or you're not really sincere. Split mind, in this case, doesn't really describe the situation. Thanks for getting past your initial flipidity. The difference between forgetting something and hiding the truth from yourself is that the latter is not information that you can forget. I'm not talking exclusively about ineffable stuff, I also mean more obvious stuff like the fact that your identity is a set of labels you make up and add to and modify on a continual basis, and that your sense of volition comes from watching what happens and then declaring a choice and taking credit for it. These are things you do every day, and you do them with a purpose in mind: to reinforce a sense of a volitional self that you know full well on some 'level' is completely made up, because you're making it up. So we're talking about an ongoing process of reinforcing an illusion because the illusion is preferred over the actuality. To stand up and declare that's what you're doing is the meaning of self honesty, and is also the end of the illusion, but you already know that. Hehe. Quinn lost her innocence long ago when the first thought about being a separate person in a world of persons occurred, and once lost, that innocence can never be regained. However, it is through Your wonderful innocence, the innocence of God, that you were able to have that thought to begin with. You ARE innocence, and nothing can take that away. Sure. Haven't you heard me talk about sincere seekers? |
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Post by quinn on Feb 12, 2014 19:08:53 GMT -5
Hehe - I saw in the other thread you're interested in a response. I was waiting for my initial flip answer to settle down... [flip answer] I hide things from myself all the time, keys being the prime example[/flip answer]. So don't call it hiding. Call it forgetting. Either way, there's an innocence to it that gets lost with saying it's a game or you're not really sincere. Split mind, in this case, doesn't really describe the situation. Thanks for getting past your initial flipidity.  I've read this over a couple of times and can't make heads or tails of it. I'm assuming the "you" in there is a general 'you', eh? Cause I don't know someone like that. If volition is seen through, then 'you' aren't concluding volition anymore. If you understand the structure and content of identity, you're no longer building on it. So I don't see where something that's known is hidden. If it's known, it's known. You're messing with my use of the word 'innocence'.  Not that I remember. Seeking is effort-ful. So you're saying that seekers can be sincere, they're just all headed in the wrong (efforting) direction? |
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 12, 2014 20:43:41 GMT -5
I'm sorry you are attached to that illusion, your belief about 'Tzu' is not accurate.. but, you seem to enjoy your 'aim' at 'Tzu', so continue the illusion, until it stops serving you.. what do you think you want from this 'aim' at Tzu?
it falls outside your belief system, you sit in the doldrums, enjoying exactly what your guru said you would, good for you, just dont feed others with your distorted view of ´´reality´´, as the sole truth
You don't even understand the process, so yes, i posted stuff that you 'think' means i dismissed it.. you don't want to talk about it, you want to attack the messenger, cool.. do your thing.. What do you think you know about my view of reality? Seriously, what can you tell me about my view of reality that isn't your aggravation about my perspective of your beliefs about your healing? |
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Post by enigma on Feb 12, 2014 20:59:41 GMT -5
Thanks for getting past your initial flipidity. I've read this over a couple of times and can't make heads or tails of it. I'm assuming the "you" in there is a general 'you', eh? Cause I don't know someone like that. If volition is seen through, then 'you' aren't concluding volition anymore. If you understand the structure and content of identity, you're no longer building on it. So I don't see where something that's known is hidden. If it's known, it's known. You're messing with my use of the word 'innocence'. Not that I remember. Seeking is effort-ful. So you're saying that seekers can be sincere, they're just all headed in the wrong (efforting) direction? Sorry to have bothered you. |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 12, 2014 22:46:24 GMT -5
SDP: Let's say that you imagined that your body was operated by invisible strings dangling down from the sky. You imagine that you are a puppet on strings being manipulated by God or some superhuman entity. This idea is erroneous, but you imagine it so strongly that it feels like your legs and arms are being raised and lowered by such strings. At some point you realize that the idea of imaginary strings is an imaginary idea, and you become free of that idea. Would it then be correct to say, "During the time that I thought I was a puppet my body was manipulated by strings?" No, because you would realize that you had been entertaining an illusion at that time and that no such strings ever existed. It is the same situation with the idea that effort has to be made to shift attention or DO anything in order to MAKE something happen regarding self-realization. After the see-er is seen through, it becomes obvious that the entire idea of effort involved a fundamental misunderstanding. Consequently, people talk about this from two different perspectives. Sometimes Niz told seekers that enormous effort was required for him to keep his concentration focused upon the I AM, and he encouraged them to do likewise. At other times he told seekers that no effort was ever involved. In both cases he was pointing to the same thing in different ways. I guess I'm always asking, here, in some manner, when somebody new comes to you, new but very sincere, hungry, desperate, what do you say or do to help them? It seems that everything (here, E, zd, empty..even Tzu, although he seems to think he's saying something different) boils down to, sorry kid, you're on your own....nobody can really help you.......and here it is again.......... Change your example just a little, and, IM vhO, you show a real, actual problem. We are puppets, but the strings are not tied to God or some superhuman entity. The strings are tied to past influences, mostly people you encountered who formed your personality, stuff copied in your brain, recordings you play back and think they are a genuine independent you. Somebody just said that 'we' are not data, we are a moving process (laughter, page 3). Ego is constituted of stored information, it's a dead, non-living thing. We are like characters in a novel, they seem very real when we are reading, but they're just squiggles on a page. We are just gazillions of synaptic-off & on-switches. Events in life activate the stored data which constitutes ego, tugs on our strings, pushes our buttons. For me, seeing that ego is an illusion doesn't cut the strings. That was my point, my reason for putting it in brain/neural-network terms. To change ego you have to change the neural structure of the brain. That's not done just by seeing that "I" am not real. That is not done until someone pushes your buttons and you don't react in the same manner you used to. This is what I mean by disengaging the gears. Now, if all of you people here are there, I'm all for you, well and good. But I also think that if you get to that point you can offer real help to *new* people. But I don't see that here........I see people on the shore watching drowning people and saying....hey dude.....you'd better learn to swim pretty quick or you've had it....... I might be wrong, but that's what I see......here....... All I hear here is, dude, you're not really drowning...... And from everybody else (here) I get (by default if nothing else), yea......you must be right........even though it really feels like I'm drowning....I must really be OK........ sdp What a pity party! |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 12, 2014 23:02:22 GMT -5
Can't see past your beliefs... really after that 'Tzu' illusion, aren't you?.. you're stuck, let it go..
that is actually where the power to create comes from in the first place
Seems you've missed the point. |
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Post by Beingist on Feb 12, 2014 23:22:38 GMT -5
Cool graphic.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2014 5:41:34 GMT -5
just clarifying some misunderstandings you feed people with---if i get healed from an incurable illness in a matter of minutes by a student of a ´´guru´´---you dismiss it as not even worth commenting on because he was a student of a guru.
it falls outside your belief system, you sit in the doldrums, enjoying exactly what your guru said you would, good for you, just dont feed others with your distorted view of ´´reality´´, as the sole truth
You don't even understand the process, so yes, i posted stuff that you 'think' means i dismissed it.. you don't want to talk about it, you want to attack the messenger, cool.. do your thing.. What do you think you know about my view of reality? Seriously, what can you tell me about my view of reality that isn't your aggravation about my perspective of your beliefs about your healing?
now i suddenly have to ´´understand the process´´---i recall you saying that obsession with how things work doesnt get you anywhere
the hallmark of a great teacher : contradict yourself every step of the way---way to go Tzu...
you stated that my beliefs (and healing) werent worth commenting on because they were coming from a guru (which isnt true, but that is your projection onto me-- they actually come from experience.)Talk about it then....i never said i didnt want to talk about it, you began attacking me...when i proved beyond a sred of doubt that my life radically improved thanks to a ´´so called guru)(they actually say this worship thing is silly--but BIG in india---and one always must go for the experience) but i see now this is the little childish game ( a 5 year old, jed mckenna would say--nowhere near adulthood)you play here with everybody.2nd chakra..chakra´s dont lie.
tell me something---what is your purpose in being here on the forum?
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 13, 2014 6:34:56 GMT -5
You don't even understand the process, so yes, i posted stuff that you 'think' means i dismissed it.. you don't want to talk about it, you want to attack the messenger, cool.. do your thing.. What do you think you know about my view of reality? Seriously, what can you tell me about my view of reality that isn't your aggravation about my perspective of your beliefs about your healing?
now i suddenly have to ´´understand the process´´---i recall you saying that obsession with how things work doesnt get you anywhere
the hallmark of a great teacher : contradict yourself every step of the way---way to go Tzu...
you stated that my beliefs (and healing) werent worth commenting on because they were coming from a guru (which isnt true, but that is your projection onto me-- they actually come from experience.)Talk about it then....i never said i didnt want to talk about it, you began attacking me...when i proved beyond a sred of doubt that my life radically improved thanks to a ´´so called guru)(they actually say this worship thing is silly--but BIG in india---and one always must go for the experience) but i see now this is the little childish game ( a 5 year old, jed mckenna would say--nowhere near adulthood)you play here with everybody.2nd chakra..chakra´s dont lie.
tell me something---what is your purpose in being here on the forum?
You didn't prove anything, you told a story about what you believe happened. At least E is willing to describe his understanding of the process, and there is merit to his description.. you're just worshiping a guru, and it's your "game".. |
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