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Post by klaus on Sept 22, 2011 17:21:14 GMT -5
I gave up seeking at birth.
I saw it was a done deal.
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Post by ivory on Sept 22, 2011 17:28:59 GMT -5
I thought the motivation of the seeker was supposed to collapse. It is. I'm saying mind turns away at that threshold and recovers the motivation instead of a full stop. What do you mean by "the mind turns away?" Attention is turned back toward what needs to be done to accomplish the next goal, which usually involves some kind of practice. Hehe. The night I had this realization it was clear to me that there was nothing more to do. No more purification, no more practice. Nada. I figured that the seeking thoughts would have some momentum for a while, but that if I continued to ignore them they would eventually fall away. The next day, I continued to drive in a state of bliss. I literally felt like I was NOBODY while I was driving. Thoughts would arise and subside but there wasn't any interest in them. I was just resting in this space (I don't know if that's understood, but that's what I call it). Then today, the seeking thoughts kicked into full gear again, and I began to believe them again. Self-conscious thoughts would kick in and I'd think, "Gawsh, I have so much work to do on this ego". Now I'm believing these thoughts and I don't know what to do. Sigh. You talk about this purification process, E. And I wonder, how much purification is actually needed. I was almost CERTAIN, that only just enough of ego actually had to fall away so that there was enough clarity to realize what I had realized. That night, I knew that even seeking to purify ego was just more seeking mind. Ego WANTS to be free of ego, which is ultimately just another form of desire. I remember thinking, "How absurd is it to attempt to clear up these egoic thoughts after this realization. If these thoughts do arise in the future, don't believe them." |
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Post by ivory on Sept 22, 2011 17:42:37 GMT -5
Hey Jason, good to see you. I don't find desire to be the source of suffering at all, but it does "open the gateway for self seeking", which implicates emotional thought patterns and desiring in the name of avoidance as opposed to creation and meaningful dreaming. I wouldn't say that it's desire in itself that creates suffering, it's the clinging or obsession with desire that creates suffering. This is what they teach in Buddhism, and that's what I find to be true in my own experienced. This particular mind is obsessed with Truth. Only recently did I realize that this obsession was turning into a burden. I have always been one pointed and obsessive about things. What I find is that my obsessions take over my life in such a way that I can't enjoy the little things. A lot of times I can't even enjoy a conversation because my mind is somewhere else. |
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Post by vacant on Sept 22, 2011 17:43:23 GMT -5
In almost every situation in life, the calmest person succeeds...be calm, and look Ivory....if you are finding that this is not so easy try the no judgment technique...it will help. I'm not concerned with giving advice to enlightened people, they don't have any use for it really, they don't need advice....to me ATA and noticing are very good modes to be in if you are an enlightened person, in fact I would say its the natural state of an enlightened person....but if we just tell earnest seekers like ivory to just notice or ATA it is really saying " just be like me, it works great" , but if they were like you in their self awareness they wouldn't be seeking, suffering.g and feeling confused lol....so I try to focus on advice that works from their current state...being fullfilled, at peace, and wonderfully alive in simple noticing is where you end up along your journey, but not everyone is there, and its not easy for them in their persrption....so i try to focus on giving advice that opens the door to simple noticing...observing the observer is the gate that will take you to simple noticing...but some people are not in a state that they can even get to this gate...Becuase the mind is too disturbed, too much in the habit of moving and running...when this is the case I give a technique that will slow or stop the moving so that observe the observer can be done...its easy for an enlightened person to in affect say "just be like me, and you will be much happier and there will be no need for all this frantic searching" and this is very true...but then the situation on the ground is that if the person was in a state of mind for doing that he'd already be doing that....so sometimes a little technique can help to ripen the fruit and create fertile ground to observe the observer, and observing the observer can ripen the fruit to enter true nature and simply notice or ATA in the fullness of their self. In short, focus on where the person is at, not on where you are at lol....enigma you did that with a recent post to ivory in this thread...but you focused on creating a reasoning that would help him see something from where he is at right now...I do it by providing a technique that will allow him to see for himself...my career was being a turn around specialist fixing failing businesses, small business owners are a lot like seekers....they are very independent, scheptical of outside advice, and need to see and figure things out for themselves....with this kind of person It's often true that no amount of reasoning will move them...they have to see and figure it out for themselves....the best you can do is give them the right tools to do this....and the right tools for them to do this has to match the level of understanding, and awareness they have, not what you have....it also has to match with their current state of mind...if someone is running 100 miles per hour and doesn't know how to STOP it doesn't help them much to keep saying stop, even if they could suddenly stop a sudden stop from 100 per hour might not be a good thing lol...in this case It's best to help them slow down the car by giving them a means to do so. Yes but yes but no but yes… How much help can the guide offer when talking to the dreamer within the dream? Some advisers make sense within my dream but it feels like the quick sands are swallowing me more, advise well intended or not. Guidance from the sage is often beyond grasp and disturbing because it is not concerned with the seeker’s dream, it talks past reasonable dialectics to the source. On the receiving end of this I can tell (sometimes  )that there is such communication as direct pointing. Thank goodness! |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 22, 2011 18:01:16 GMT -5
In almost every situation in life, the calmest person succeeds...be calm, and look Ivory....if you are finding that this is not so easy try the no judgment technique...it will help. I'm not concerned with giving advice to enlightened people, they don't have any use for it really, they don't need advice....to me ATA and noticing are very good modes to be in if you are an enlightened person, in fact I would say its the natural state of an enlightened person....but if we just tell earnest seekers like ivory to just notice or ATA it is really saying " just be like me, it works great" , but if they were like you in their self awareness they wouldn't be seeking, suffering.g and feeling confused lol....so I try to focus on advice that works from their current state...being fullfilled, at peace, and wonderfully alive in simple noticing is where you end up along your journey, but not everyone is there, and its not easy for them in their persrption....so i try to focus on giving advice that opens the door to simple noticing...observing the observer is the gate that will take you to simple noticing...but some people are not in a state that they can even get to this gate...Becuase the mind is too disturbed, too much in the habit of moving and running...when this is the case I give a technique that will slow or stop the moving so that observe the observer can be done...its easy for an enlightened person to in affect say "just be like me, and you will be much happier and there will be no need for all this frantic searching" and this is very true...but then the situation on the ground is that if the person was in a state of mind for doing that he'd already be doing that....so sometimes a little technique can help to ripen the fruit and create fertile ground to observe the observer, and observing the observer can ripen the fruit to enter true nature and simply notice or ATA in the fullness of their self. In short, focus on where the person is at, not on where you are at lol....enigma you did that with a recent post to ivory in this thread...but you focused on creating a reasoning that would help him see something from where he is at right now...I do it by providing a technique that will allow him to see for himself...my career was being a turn around specialist fixing failing businesses, small business owners are a lot like seekers....they are very independent, scheptical of outside advice, and need to see and figure things out for themselves....with this kind of person It's often true that no amount of reasoning will move them...they have to see and figure it out for themselves....the best you can do is give them the right tools to do this....and the right tools for them to do this has to match the level of understanding, and awareness they have, not what you have....it also has to match with their current state of mind...if someone is running 100 miles per hour and doesn't know how to STOP it doesn't help them much to keep saying stop, even if they could suddenly stop a sudden stop from 100 per hour might not be a good thing lol...in this case It's best to help them slow down the car by giving them a means to do so. Just out of curiosity, Mr. T., what advice would you give to Tony Parsons, who refuses to meet people at the level of the dream? He has been spectacularly effective at waking people up, and all he does is steadfastly deny the existence of the individual. Here are some typical dialogues from one of his satsangs: Woman: Yesterday, when I went out to buy a pair of red shoes....... Tony (interrupting her): No one has ever bought a pair of red shoes! Woman: Well, Rumi said....... Tony (again interrupting her): There is no Rumi! There is only THIS! Many people find Tony extremely frustrating because he refuses to acknowledge that there is anyone who can do anything, but his approach is very effective at stopping peoples' minds and triggering huge realizations. From what I've read I suspect that he is one of the most effective teachers of non-duality on the planet (from the standpoint of how many people he has awakened), but he categorically refuses to suggest any practices or techniques because he refuses to accept that there are any entities who could use them. Do you think he is wrong to use the approach he uses? If a survey of non-duality students showed that Tony is waking up ten times as many people as other teachers, would that cause you to give up your present teaching methodology and adopt his? If not, why not? |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 22, 2011 18:33:46 GMT -5
In almost every situation in life, the calmest person succeeds...be calm, and look Ivory....if you are finding that this is not so easy try the no judgment technique...it will help. I'm not concerned with giving advice to enlightened people, they don't have any use for it really, they don't need advice....to me ATA and noticing are very good modes to be in if you are an enlightened person, in fact I would say its the natural state of an enlightened person....but if we just tell earnest seekers like ivory to just notice or ATA it is really saying " just be like me, it works great" , but if they were like you in their self awareness they wouldn't be seeking, suffering.g and feeling confused lol....so I try to focus on advice that works from their current state...being fullfilled, at peace, and wonderfully alive in simple noticing is where you end up along your journey, but not everyone is there, and its not easy for them in their persrption....so i try to focus on giving advice that opens the door to simple noticing...observing the observer is the gate that will take you to simple noticing...but some people are not in a state that they can even get to this gate...Becuase the mind is too disturbed, too much in the habit of moving and running...when this is the case I give a technique that will slow or stop the moving so that observe the observer can be done...its easy for an enlightened person to in affect say "just be like me, and you will be much happier and there will be no need for all this frantic searching" and this is very true...but then the situation on the ground is that if the person was in a state of mind for doing that he'd already be doing that....so sometimes a little technique can help to ripen the fruit and create fertile ground to observe the observer, and observing the observer can ripen the fruit to enter true nature and simply notice or ATA in the fullness of their self. In short, focus on where the person is at, not on where you are at lol....enigma you did that with a recent post to ivory in this thread...but you focused on creating a reasoning that would help him see something from where he is at right now...I do it by providing a technique that will allow him to see for himself...my career was being a turn around specialist fixing failing businesses, small business owners are a lot like seekers....they are very independent, scheptical of outside advice, and need to see and figure things out for themselves....with this kind of person It's often true that no amount of reasoning will move them...they have to see and figure it out for themselves....the best you can do is give them the right tools to do this....and the right tools for them to do this has to match the level of understanding, and awareness they have, not what you have....it also has to match with their current state of mind...if someone is running 100 miles per hour and doesn't know how to STOP it doesn't help them much to keep saying stop, even if they could suddenly stop a sudden stop from 100 per hour might not be a good thing lol...in this case It's best to help them slow down the car by giving them a means to do so. Just out of curiosity, Mr. T., what advice would you give to Tony Parsons, who refuses to meet people at the level of the dream? He has been spectacularly effective at waking people up, and all he does is steadfastly deny the existence of the individual. Here are some typical dialogues from one of his satsangs: Woman: Yesterday, when I went out to buy a pair of red shoes....... Tony (interrupting her): No one has ever bought a pair of red shoes! Woman: Well, Rumi said....... Tony (again interrupting her): There is no Rumi! There is only THIS! Many people find Tony extremely frustrating because he refuses to acknowledge that there is anyone who can do anything, but his approach is very effective at stopping peoples' minds and triggering huge realizations. From what I've read I suspect that he is one of the most effective teachers of non-duality on the planet (from the standpoint of how many people he has awakened), but he categorically refuses to suggest any practices or techniques because he refuses to accept that there are any entities who could use them. Do you think he is wrong to use the approach he uses? If a survey of non-duality students showed that Tony is waking up ten times as many people as other teachers, would that cause you to give up your present teaching methodology and adopt his? If not, why not? Not to be argumentitive, but there is within this the suposition that a teacher wakes people up...but people wake themselves up as they are ready, I.e. as the fruit becomes ripe. And we all draw to ourselves the means to do so...when the student is ready the teacher or teaching appears...so isn't it more accurate to say that many people who are ready to STOP find Tony? However, within the supposition that Tony is awakening folks, I am most often a stick of insence that moves from stillness in the moment with no plan or goal, so adopting his method seems antithetical to being....however, I am interested in talking to all the students he didn't wake up, and giving them some advice lol. As an aside, fundementally my non approach is the same as his...we both want to help in the stopping of the mind and the realization of no self to "do" anything with....he does it with an interuptive conversation, I often, but not always offer an Interuptive technique. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 22, 2011 18:43:05 GMT -5
I gave up seeking at birth. I saw it was a done deal. You escaped that dark, clammy, cramped dungeon, and that was good enough, eh?  |
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Post by enigma on Sept 22, 2011 18:51:38 GMT -5
It is. I'm saying mind turns away at that threshold and recovers the motivation instead of a full stop. Attention is turned back toward what needs to be done to accomplish the next goal, which usually involves some kind of practice. Hehe. The night I had this realization it was clear to me that there was nothing more to do. No more purification, no more practice. Nada. I figured that the seeking thoughts would have some momentum for a while, but that if I continued to ignore them they would eventually fall away. The next day, I continued to drive in a state of bliss. I literally felt like I was NOBODY while I was driving. Thoughts would arise and subside but there wasn't any interest in them. I was just resting in this space (I don't know if that's understood, but that's what I call it). Then today, the seeking thoughts kicked into full gear again, and I began to believe them again. Self-conscious thoughts would kick in and I'd think, "Gawsh, I have so much work to do on this ego". Now I'm believing these thoughts and I don't know what to do. Sigh. You talk about this purification process, E. And I wonder, how much purification is actually needed. I was almost CERTAIN, that only just enough of ego actually had to fall away so that there was enough clarity to realize what I had realized. That night, I knew that even seeking to purify ego was just more seeking mind. Ego WANTS to be free of ego, which is ultimately just another form of desire. I remember thinking, "How absurd is it to attempt to clear up these egoic thoughts after this realization. If these thoughts do arise in the future, don't believe them." So mind is happy to have had the experience and the insights, but then it's 'Well what about me and my motivation and my goals and my progress toward happiness and enlightenment and such?' It's a very odd thing, but the insights are cool. |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 22, 2011 18:58:42 GMT -5
The night I had this realization it was clear to me that there was nothing more to do. No more purification, no more practice. Nada. I figured that the seeking thoughts would have some momentum for a while, but that if I continued to ignore them they would eventually fall away. The next day, I continued to drive in a state of bliss. I literally felt like I was NOBODY while I was driving. Thoughts would arise and subside but there wasn't any interest in them. I was just resting in this space (I don't know if that's understood, but that's what I call it). Then today, the seeking thoughts kicked into full gear again, and I began to believe them again. Self-conscious thoughts would kick in and I'd think, "Gawsh, I have so much work to do on this ego". Now I'm believing these thoughts and I don't know what to do. Sigh. You talk about this purification process, E. And I wonder, how much purification is actually needed. I was almost CERTAIN, that only just enough of ego actually had to fall away so that there was enough clarity to realize what I had realized. That night, I knew that even seeking to purify ego was just more seeking mind. Ego WANTS to be free of ego, which is ultimately just another form of desire. I remember thinking, "How absurd is it to attempt to clear up these egoic thoughts after this realization. If these thoughts do arise in the future, don't believe them." So mind is happy to have had the experience and the insights, but then it's 'Well what about me and my motivation and my goals and my progress toward happiness and enlightenment and such?' It's a very odd thing, but the insights are cool. There seems to be a convieniant double standard here to enigma ...ivory can think and have insights, but he cannot choose to let it all go lol |
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Post by enigma on Sept 22, 2011 19:02:49 GMT -5
In almost every situation in life, the calmest person succeeds...be calm, and look Ivory....if you are finding that this is not so easy try the no judgment technique...it will help. I'm not concerned with giving advice to enlightened people, they don't have any use for it really, they don't need advice....to me ATA and noticing are very good modes to be in if you are an enlightened person, in fact I would say its the natural state of an enlightened person....but if we just tell earnest seekers like ivory to just notice or ATA it is really saying " just be like me, it works great" , but if they were like you in their self awareness they wouldn't be seeking, suffering.g and feeling confused lol....so I try to focus on advice that works from their current state...being fullfilled, at peace, and wonderfully alive in simple noticing is where you end up along your journey, but not everyone is there, and its not easy for them in their persrption....so i try to focus on giving advice that opens the door to simple noticing...observing the observer is the gate that will take you to simple noticing...but some people are not in a state that they can even get to this gate...Becuase the mind is too disturbed, too much in the habit of moving and running...when this is the case I give a technique that will slow or stop the moving so that observe the observer can be done...its easy for an enlightened person to in affect say "just be like me, and you will be much happier and there will be no need for all this frantic searching" and this is very true...but then the situation on the ground is that if the person was in a state of mind for doing that he'd already be doing that....so sometimes a little technique can help to ripen the fruit and create fertile ground to observe the observer, and observing the observer can ripen the fruit to enter true nature and simply notice or ATA in the fullness of their self. In short, focus on where the person is at, not on where you are at lol....enigma you did that with a recent post to ivory in this thread...but you focused on creating a reasoning that would help him see something from where he is at right now...I do it by providing a technique that will allow him to see for himself...my career was being a turn around specialist fixing failing businesses, small business owners are a lot like seekers....they are very independent, scheptical of outside advice, and need to see and figure things out for themselves....with this kind of person It's often true that no amount of reasoning will move them...they have to see and figure it out for themselves....the best you can do is give them the right tools to do this....and the right tools for them to do this has to match the level of understanding, and awareness they have, not what you have....it also has to match with their current state of mind...if someone is running 100 miles per hour and doesn't know how to STOP it doesn't help them much to keep saying stop, even if they could suddenly stop a sudden stop from 100 per hour might not be a good thing lol...in this case It's best to help them slow down the car by giving them a means to do so. Yes but yes but no but yes… How much help can the guide offer when talking to the dreamer within the dream? Some advisers make sense within my dream but it feels like the quick sands are swallowing me more, advise well intended or not. Guidance from the sage is often beyond grasp and disturbing because it is not concerned with the seeker’s dream, it talks past reasonable dialectics to the source. On the receiving end of this I can tell (sometimes )that there is such communication as direct pointing. Thank goodness! Yes, I resonate with that. It really makes little sense to talk to the imaginary person who can't do anything anyway, which only encourages the delusion. 'Something' is listening and noticing, so it makes sense to address what is actually here and point to what's actually going on and away from the delusion. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 22, 2011 19:07:25 GMT -5
In almost every situation in life, the calmest person succeeds...be calm, and look Ivory....if you are finding that this is not so easy try the no judgment technique...it will help. I'm not concerned with giving advice to enlightened people, they don't have any use for it really, they don't need advice....to me ATA and noticing are very good modes to be in if you are an enlightened person, in fact I would say its the natural state of an enlightened person....but if we just tell earnest seekers like ivory to just notice or ATA it is really saying " just be like me, it works great" , but if they were like you in their self awareness they wouldn't be seeking, suffering.g and feeling confused lol....so I try to focus on advice that works from their current state...being fullfilled, at peace, and wonderfully alive in simple noticing is where you end up along your journey, but not everyone is there, and its not easy for them in their persrption....so i try to focus on giving advice that opens the door to simple noticing...observing the observer is the gate that will take you to simple noticing...but some people are not in a state that they can even get to this gate...Becuase the mind is too disturbed, too much in the habit of moving and running...when this is the case I give a technique that will slow or stop the moving so that observe the observer can be done...its easy for an enlightened person to in affect say "just be like me, and you will be much happier and there will be no need for all this frantic searching" and this is very true...but then the situation on the ground is that if the person was in a state of mind for doing that he'd already be doing that....so sometimes a little technique can help to ripen the fruit and create fertile ground to observe the observer, and observing the observer can ripen the fruit to enter true nature and simply notice or ATA in the fullness of their self. In short, focus on where the person is at, not on where you are at lol....enigma you did that with a recent post to ivory in this thread...but you focused on creating a reasoning that would help him see something from where he is at right now...I do it by providing a technique that will allow him to see for himself...my career was being a turn around specialist fixing failing businesses, small business owners are a lot like seekers....they are very independent, scheptical of outside advice, and need to see and figure things out for themselves....with this kind of person It's often true that no amount of reasoning will move them...they have to see and figure it out for themselves....the best you can do is give them the right tools to do this....and the right tools for them to do this has to match the level of understanding, and awareness they have, not what you have....it also has to match with their current state of mind...if someone is running 100 miles per hour and doesn't know how to STOP it doesn't help them much to keep saying stop, even if they could suddenly stop a sudden stop from 100 per hour might not be a good thing lol...in this case It's best to help them slow down the car by giving them a means to do so. Just out of curiosity, Mr. T., what advice would you give to Tony Parsons, who refuses to meet people at the level of the dream? He has been spectacularly effective at waking people up, and all he does is steadfastly deny the existence of the individual. Here are some typical dialogues from one of his satsangs: Woman: Yesterday, when I went out to buy a pair of red shoes....... Tony (interrupting her): No one has ever bought a pair of red shoes! Woman: Well, Rumi said....... Tony (again interrupting her): There is no Rumi! There is only THIS! Many people find Tony extremely frustrating because he refuses to acknowledge that there is anyone who can do anything, but his approach is very effective at stopping peoples' minds and triggering huge realizations. From what I've read I suspect that he is one of the most effective teachers of non-duality on the planet (from the standpoint of how many people he has awakened), but he categorically refuses to suggest any practices or techniques because he refuses to accept that there are any entities who could use them. Do you think he is wrong to use the approach he uses? If a survey of non-duality students showed that Tony is waking up ten times as many people as other teachers, would that cause you to give up your present teaching methodology and adopt his? If not, why not? I've gotten the same impression in the last year or so; that Tony's blunt, frustrating 'neo-advaita' approach is perhaps the most successful of all, though I don't know. I DO know that lots of folks don't like it, which tends to support that theory from my perspective. Hehe. |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 22, 2011 19:11:01 GMT -5
Haha...how can you talk to what's actually there...sounds like prayer to me lol....nothing wrong with that...but my gosh is it fundementally nihilistic....if you are going to speak to what is actually there what do you think is going to actually respond....under that logic you would do just as well talking to a tree as to a person.
Haha...might as well go into seclusion and go and talk to a tree everyday and call it a differant name lol...you would be talking to the same "actual" lol.
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Post by enigma on Sept 22, 2011 19:11:05 GMT -5
So mind is happy to have had the experience and the insights, but then it's 'Well what about me and my motivation and my goals and my progress toward happiness and enlightenment and such?' It's a very odd thing, but the insights are cool. There seems to be a convieniant double standard here to enigma ...ivory can think and have insights, but he cannot choose to let it all go lol Did I imply he chose to have insights, or did you find another straw man argument? |
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Post by enigma on Sept 22, 2011 19:15:13 GMT -5
Haha...how can you talk to what's actually there...sounds like prayer to me lol....nothing wrong with that...but my gosh is it fundementally nihilistic....if you are going to speak to what is actually there what do you think is going to actually respond....under that logic you would do just as well talking to a tree as to a person. Trees don't seem to be burdened with delusions. What is reading this right now? Is it Tath? |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 22, 2011 19:20:32 GMT -5
The mind likes to move from one extreme to the other...from there is a self that's deluded, to there is no self to talk to....no thank you, I'll stay in the middle and give the deluded self a method to see that there is no self Lmao.
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)that there is such communication as direct pointing. Thank goodness!
