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Post by tathagata on Sept 21, 2011 9:39:05 GMT -5
I know what you're asking but really everybody is seeking from about age 2. All that changes is the object of the seeking. 'Sweet dreams are made of these. Everybody's looking for something Last night I had the most startling, intense realization that nearly had on me on my knees crying. I think it was you, E, that made me look at this. You're always blabbering on about "noticing the game" (lol @ blabbering) or whatever, and last night I decided to look at this whole seeking business because, quite frankly, I'm sick of it. I'm in the process of driving across country for a move, and this whole time this mind was just running around in circles thinking about truth. I couldn't stop the thoughts, and I was exhausted with them. So I decided to look at my whole life just to get my mind on something else... childhood, past girlfriends, my current desires. In each of them it was just blatantly clear, I've always been looking for something. I began to notice even in those moments of contemplation that I was looking for something other than that moment... Keeping track of how many miles I had driven, how long it would take to get somewhere else, and other weird subtle forms of seeking. But then I realized, not only am I seeking, I haven no idea what I'm looking for. I mean, I can say that I want truth, but I have no idea what truth is so it's not true that I want it. Then I looked at those other forms of seeking, and it was the same thing. So, I get there, but then what? Look for something else. I've heard that desire is the cause of our suffering, and I finally got what that meant. Life frickin' sucks. How has nobody noticed this? I am fearful for myself, and feel sorry for humanity. At one point I thought, I am done with this. I don't want this anymore, then the mind kicked in and said, "well, I'll just blah blah blah instead (forget what crap the mind spewed out)". What frightens me is that I can't go back, and I can't stop going forward. All I'm doing is running, and I have no idea where I'm going. I realized that I had always been completely out of control and there's nothing I can do about it. The phrase, "Nowhere to go" came to mind and I just lost it. I was afraid for my life at that point. No words to describe how I felt. I just sat there in bed unable to sleep. After four hours or so I finally felt dream thoughts kicking in and was just relieved to be falling asleep. Now I may be jumping the gun by saying this, but it seems to me that this ain't a search for something... this is about realizing there is nothing to find. Many shallows wells bare no water brother.....pick one well and drill deep, otherwise you may be digging one shallow well after another forever.....be without judgement on and in all things inside and out, this includes the judgment of judgement...this will dry up the "fuel" of the movement and seeking of the mind....there is nothing to find, only parts to focus in on and become absorbed in, one can go from one thing to the next being absorbed in things...Zendancer beuatifully said that its a cosmic dance of emptiness moving sand around in emptyness, there is no need to shift through the sand looking for "the right" grain, this can make you crazy LOL....one can seek and be disturbed, or one can simply observe what is and be at peace...judgment makes us seek, Becuase somewhere deep down inside we have a belief structure that something is better than this....be without judgment, simply observe...when you do this and are finally in a simple state of observing without seeking, let go of the observer too, and then you will truelly see Without seeing my friend. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 21, 2011 19:30:43 GMT -5
I know what you're asking but really everybody is seeking from about age 2. All that changes is the object of the seeking. 'Sweet dreams are made of these. Everybody's looking for something Last night I had the most startling, intense realization that nearly had on me on my knees crying. I think it was you, E, that made me look at this. You're always blabbering on about "noticing the game" (lol @ blabbering) or whatever, and last night I decided to look at this whole seeking business because, quite frankly, I'm sick of it. I'm in the process of driving across country for a move, and this whole time this mind was just running around in circles thinking about truth. I couldn't stop the thoughts, and I was exhausted with them. So I decided to look at my whole life just to get my mind on something else... childhood, past girlfriends, my current desires. In each of them it was just blatantly clear, I've always been looking for something. I began to notice even in those moments of contemplation that I was looking for something other than that moment... Keeping track of how many miles I had driven, how long it would take to get somewhere else, and other weird subtle forms of seeking. But then I realized, not only am I seeking, I haven no idea what I'm looking for. I mean, I can say that I want truth, but I have no idea what truth is so it's not true that I want it. Then I looked at those other forms of seeking, and it was the same thing. So, I get there, but then what? Look for something else. I've heard that desire is the cause of our suffering, and I finally got what that meant. Life frickin' sucks. How has nobody noticed this? I am fearful for myself, and feel sorry for humanity. At one point I thought, I am done with this. I don't want this anymore, then the mind kicked in and said, "well, I'll just blah blah blah instead (forget what crap the mind spewed out)". What frightens me is that I can't go back, and I can't stop going forward. All I'm doing is running, and I have no idea where I'm going. I realized that I had always been completely out of control and there's nothing I can do about it. The phrase, "Nowhere to go" came to mind and I just lost it. I was afraid for my life at that point. No words to describe how I felt. I just sat there in bed unable to sleep. After four hours or so I finally felt dream thoughts kicking in and was just relieved to be falling asleep. Now I may be jumping the gun by saying this, but it seems to me that this ain't a search for something... this is about realizing there is nothing to find. I'd say there's a whole lot of clarity goin on there in the category of stuff the seeker does NOT want to find, and yet it's important that it be noticed. Yes, always seeking, and with an idea that the goal is important and yet all accomplishments are ultimately unfulfiling, and we struggle to not notice this. Truth becomes one more goal that mind MUST see in a similar way to the way it sees all of it's other goals. It's actually absurd for mind to pursue Truth since all that can result from it for mind is calamity, disaster, so it must imagine what Truth actually is for the person in order to even keep that movement going. It IS freedom, but of course it's not personal freedom so what in blazes does the person think he's doing? He thinks he's chasing something else, and the closer he gets to what Truth actually is, the less interest there is in chasing it, until at the precise threshold of Truth, the motivation of the seeker collapses entirely, and the mind turns away. It's my belief that this exact scenario happens repeatedly to all dedicated seekers, though without their knowing it. The seeker climbs the mountain, knocks on God's door, and just as the door begins to open, he casually turns and walks away. Seriously, what else can he do besides die right there on God's doorstep? (Blabber, blabber, blabber. Hehe) |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 21, 2011 20:55:58 GMT -5
True enigma...most people get to the gate, but only a kind of dieing on God's doorstep will get you through LOL...this being at the doorstep happens many times in peoples life, both seeker and none seeker LOL....anytime someone's been "lost" in the beuaty of a moment or some thing they are at that doorstep ....and the obvious one, in that moment of sexual orgasm where just for a moment your lost in it LOL.
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Post by therealfake on Sept 21, 2011 22:34:46 GMT -5
Well,
It seems like the clarity surrounding this realization of our brother Ivory isn't serving him very well...heh
But fortunately all is not lost.
In fact everything is perfectly OK.
The important thing is the seeing that got him to this realization in the first place.
Ivory has found out that you can't make spiritual concepts 'real'.
But now he's trying to make the concept of 'nothing' real by thinking that it's an abyss, an oblivion, and the most terrifying thing in the universe.
He's trying so hard to make that nothing concept 'real', that he's added the emotion of fear to it, so that the body feels that 'story' of pain and tragedy.
If he knew what the experience of nothing was, he would be running at it with reckless abandon.
He only has to use the same seeing that he used on the concept of truth, to realize that the making of the concept of nothing into 'something' is exactly the same thing.
Sometimes clarity is blind...
Peace
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Post by ivory on Sept 22, 2011 0:04:39 GMT -5
Enigma said…
If I had to guess what "getting close to truth" meant, I'd guess that you were implying giving up. I know that Ivory can't consciously make a decision to give up, I just don't know how that giving up happens.
I thought the motivation of the seeker was supposed to collapse.
What do you mean by "the mind turns away?"
Lastly, is there anything else you think I should look at specifically?
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Post by ivory on Sept 22, 2011 0:07:03 GMT -5
TRF said…
It's all good. Nothing is permanent.
I don't know what you mean. The pain and tragedy was realizing that I always have been running, and I have no control over the seeking mind. I can't enjoy this moment because I'm always looking to the future.
Thank you, there has been a lot of fear on this path thus far. This will serve as some encouragement.
I don't know what you mean by this. I realized that I've been chasing an empty concept of truth. But I didn't realize I had made that …
Oh wait. I think I see what you mean, and if so, it doesn't seem all that profound.
One moment you can think you've had the deepest, most profound realization and the in the next have it washed away by a sea of confusion. Clarity is only moment to moment.
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Post by jasonl on Sept 22, 2011 8:46:03 GMT -5
Yo ivory what up kid?!?! I don't think that's jumping the gun. Nothing is actually noticing the mind, and you are never not that nothingness. The person, the outer aspect, the dream character that is witnessed, still has his role to play and song to sing. Nobody can actually realize truth, and no body is going to escape the dream. That's a good thing for the relative aspect to understand. Liberation results from understanding fear, which requires that it be looked at on a conscious level. Seeking truth is an interesting phenomena. I think most people seek enlightenment for the exact same reasons they seek happiness. If a mind state is found giving the individual enough relative dualistic peace and happiness, then there's really no reason to go any further(understanding-wise). If that mind state hasn't been found, well then lucky you. You might actually find the real thing  (nobody does) If you are not content in your relative mind state, then forces are in place to drive you forward, into nobodyness, which isn't a bad thing, just not necessarily a good thing, otherwise why would somebody go that way?  A point in time may come when the mind or person gives up trying to be enlightened, or trying to be awareness, or whatever. THis isn't actually when someone becomes enlightened, the search is simply called off because it is understood through trial, era, and everything in between that nothing can actually be found. Its already here, and its looking right at you. You dont find anything when you stop looking, which is precisely why it doesnt interest anybody. Movement is what interests mind, and moving without seeking would be freedom for anybody. Look at where your interests are, your relative personal interests. You mention you are moving across the country. Your experience is here to teach you. You can trust in that. What is the human experience if not a learning experience? Its never not the case. Learn from what you are seeing and experiencing. Allow your desires to guide you forward, and notice how self seeking has a lot more to do with fear than anything else. I don't find desire to be the source of suffering at all, but it does "open the gateway for self seeking", which implicates emotional thought patterns and desiring in the name of avoidance as opposed to creation and meaningful dreaming. Meaning, its a lot easier to desire enlightenment than happiness because on the emotional level, mind is "trying to be nothing" rather than acknowledging that it, mind, actually thinks as if its someone. Its ok to think as if youre someone. Just because you stick feathers up your butt doesnt make you a chicken, you just happen to play one on TV. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 9:22:18 GMT -5
One moment you can think you've had the deepest, most profound realization and the in the next have it washed away by a sea of confusion. Clarity is only moment to moment. I've had a lot of that goin' on recently. It's been fruitful to watch. One realization is that this perception of clarity has been given unquestioned higher status. That status is in contrast to some other state (with lower status) like being 'lost in thought' or confusion -- usually, for some unknown reason, all of a sudden, i'll be feeling more clear, more mindful, more able to attend the actual, and I'll be groovin along and then there's more lost in thought and then suddenly back to this 'higher' state. But the thing is both of those states are just playing out with everything else. good luck with the movin' in the movin'! |
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Post by enigma on Sept 22, 2011 9:49:28 GMT -5
Enigma said… If I had to guess what "getting close to truth" meant, I'd guess that you were implying giving up. I know that Ivory can't consciously make a decision to give up, I just don't know how that giving up happens. Giving up is the effect of realization. Haven't you ever given up on something because you realized the futility of the endeavor? Truth isn't giving up so much as the clarity that results in giving up. It is. I'm saying mind turns away at that threshold and recovers the motivation instead of a full stop. Attention is turned back toward what needs to be done to accomplish the next goal, which usually involves some kind of practice. Hehe. Whatever you're looking at has to be the thing you should be looking at. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 22, 2011 10:35:06 GMT -5
Lastly, is there anything else you think I should look at specifically? Okay, lets try this. The idea that life sucks is the search for motivation that I've been talking about. Life only sucks AS a movement of mind projecting into past and future, which is not to suggest that life might really suck and we're playing a game of not thinking about it. It means that there literally is no problem until mind invents one. I suspect that you've noticed how when things are going well, there are subtle thoughts about what might be wrong, what needs to be done or what can be improved and the like. Ironically, these thoughts are most likely to occur in the background of your happiest times. We often justify those thoughts with the idea that we don't want to crash too hard when things start going wrong (hehe) but these thoughts are, themselves, the 'going wrong'. This is why we oscillate between good times and bad times. Fundamental to the movement of dualistic experience itself is this need for motivation. Notice that experience is a movement only, and so we seek something, and when we find it, the movement stops and we invent another movement, which requires imagining what is needed or what is wrong. Imagining this is what leads to the experience of lack and unhappiness, but at least we have a new movement toward something, which we hope will lead to our goal and some more happiness, and so on. So what I'm suggesting is that Truth realization is the collapse of all motivation. No place to go, no goal to accomplish, no dualistic happiness to be found, which mind interprets as no movement. Now life sucks and it's pointless and we're on the verge of depression, all because the happy/unhappy roller coaster has slowed to a crawl and is threatening to stop. This stopping, or emptiness, is of course very auspicious, but what I've been suggesting is that mind wants to escape this stopping at all cost, and so it takes one glance at the open expanse of effortless beingness, and looks for some kind of movement. In this case, it finds it in the idea that life sucks and something has to be done about it, like maybe finding effortless beingness that mind just now turned away from. ;D |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 22, 2011 14:32:38 GMT -5
Enigma said… If I had to guess what "getting close to truth" meant, I'd guess that you were implying giving up. I know that Ivory can't consciously make a decision to give up, I just don't know how that giving up happens. I thought the motivation of the seeker was supposed to collapse. What do you mean by "the mind turns away?" Lastly, is there anything else you think I should look at specifically? Where did you get this idea that Ivory couldn't conciously give up? |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 22, 2011 15:07:17 GMT -5
In almost every situation in life, the calmest person succeeds...be calm, and look Ivory....if you are finding that this is not so easy try the no judgment technique...it will help.
I'm not concerned with giving advice to enlightened people, they don't have any use for it really, they don't need advice....to me ATA and noticing are very good modes to be in if you are an enlightened person, in fact I would say its the natural state of an enlightened person....but if we just tell earnest seekers like ivory to just notice or ATA it is really saying " just be like me, it works great" , but if they were like you in their self awareness they wouldn't be seeking, suffering.g and feeling confused lol....so I try to focus on advice that works from their current state...being fullfilled, at peace, and wonderfully alive in simple noticing is where you end up along your journey, but not everyone is there, and its not easy for them in their persrption....so i try to focus on giving advice that opens the door to simple noticing...observing the observer is the gate that will take you to simple noticing...but some people are not in a state that they can even get to this gate...Becuase the mind is too disturbed, too much in the habit of moving and running...when this is the case I give a technique that will slow or stop the moving so that observe the observer can be done...its easy for an enlightened person to in affect say "just be like me, and you will be much happier and there will be no need for all this frantic searching" and this is very true...but then the situation on the ground is that if the person was in a state of mind for doing that he'd already be doing that....so sometimes a little technique can help to ripen the fruit and create fertile ground to observe the observer, and observing the observer can ripen the fruit to enter true nature and simply notice or ATA in the fullness of their self.
In short, focus on where the person is at, not on where you are at lol....enigma you did that with a recent post to ivory in this thread...but you focused on creating a reasoning that would help him see something from where he is at right now...I do it by providing a technique that will allow him to see for himself...my career was being a turn around specialist fixing failing businesses, small business owners are a lot like seekers....they are very independent, scheptical of outside advice, and need to see and figure things out for themselves....with this kind of person It's often true that no amount of reasoning will move them...they have to see and figure it out for themselves....the best you can do is give them the right tools to do this....and the right tools for them to do this has to match the level of understanding, and awareness they have, not what you have....it also has to match with their current state of mind...if someone is running 100 miles per hour and doesn't know how to STOP it doesn't help them much to keep saying stop, even if they could suddenly stop a sudden stop from 100 per hour might not be a good thing lol...in this case It's best to help them slow down the car by giving them a means to do so.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 22, 2011 15:43:15 GMT -5
A monk asked Nansen: `Is there a teaching no master ever preached before?'
Nansen said: `Yes, there is.'
`What is it?' asked the monk.
Nansen replied: `It is not mind, it is not Buddha, it is not things.'
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Post by andrew on Sept 22, 2011 15:52:09 GMT -5
The advice I give can vary wildly too. Meditations of different kinds, Ho'oponopono, EFT, yoga, Sedona Method, Byron Katie's work, self-enquiry, energy work, healing work, NLP, a practice of forgiveness, a practice of gratitude and appreciation, hynotherapy, neurofeedback, shadow self work....to name but a few. It all depends on the person's interests, their goals, their mindset. On this forum I get the feeling that some manifestation work would be a good thing to do for some, but it just aint very non-dualistically 'correct'.
Just to be clear, I dont consider myself to be finished with any of those tools I might offer. There are some I might not use very much anymore, but most of them still get used somewhat at different times. And yet I use them without any interest in achieving a 'final point'.
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Post by ivory on Sept 22, 2011 17:13:03 GMT -5
Enigma said… If I had to guess what "getting close to truth" meant, I'd guess that you were implying giving up. I know that Ivory can't consciously make a decision to give up, I just don't know how that giving up happens. I thought the motivation of the seeker was supposed to collapse. What do you mean by "the mind turns away?" Lastly, is there anything else you think I should look at specifically? Where did you get this idea that Ivory couldn't conciously give up? Well, I can't say this for certain, but it's pretty clear that there isn't an Ivory. So who would give up? |
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(nobody does) If you are not content in your relative mind state, then forces are in place to drive you forward, into nobodyness, which isn't a bad thing, just not necessarily a good thing, otherwise why would somebody go that way? 