|
Post by andrew on Sept 5, 2011 16:05:29 GMT -5
If you go with the idea that you already are enlightened maxdprophet, what would that mean to you? Im just wondering if maybe you pretty much are enlightened, but you might have a slightly unreasonable expectation as to what being enlightened is like...? Andrew that is maybe one of the most accurate and useful statements I've seen in this forum...but the issue is that until a person is ready through the exhuastiin or surrender of the ego they can never experience it and really know it to be true...no matter how many times you say it there will be no experience if this until there is a direct experience of it...intellectual understanding is not enough to lift the illusion. I do agree that intellectual understanding is not enough to lift the illusion, but at the same time I dont think that understandings are totally irrelevant. What I have also noticed is that those who have more intellectual understanding than direct experience tend to have identified with a very abstract idea of who they are. To complicate matters, that which has been abstractly identified with tends to have a whole bunch of names! The ego gets extremely well hidden, buried beneath a whole load of circular abstraction. I think though that those with more intellectual understanding than direct experience do give themselves away in the end. I dont know maxdprophet very well at all, the only reason I posted on this thread is because of something he said on another thread which I could very much relate to, but I got the feeling that there isnt a whole lot of devious ego going on, and not a whole lot of abstract identification. I got a sense of clear insight. Which makes me think that he is basically 'there' and maybe there is just a bit of unreasonable expectation happening. Sorry for talking ABOUT you here maxdprophet. If you actually do have a whole lot of devious ego and abstract identification going on, I apologize for misinterpreting hehe
|
|
|
Post by ivory on Sept 5, 2011 16:17:34 GMT -5
Devious ego? What would recognize something as devious? Aaaah... ego. No offense, hehe. I wonder if this has anything to do with the hamster wheel that Enigma speaks of.
Ego says, "Look at that gosh durn ego over there! I must get rid of it!!!"
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Sept 5, 2011 16:24:38 GMT -5
Devious ego? What would recognize something as devious? Aaaah... ego. No offense, hehe. I wonder if this has anything to do with the hamster wheel that Enigma speaks of. Ego says, "Look at that gosh durn ego over there! I must get rid of it!!!" Thats cool. I really wouldnt say that I have totally transcended ego but I dont care enough about the ego that is left to do anything about it hehe. I agree that if I had transcended ego completely I wouldnt be spotting it in anyone else. I actually think that if humans were to transcend ego altogether there would be no discussion about it at all because there would be no reference left for it. So I come from a place in which I think we are all walking hand in hand, though some may be further down the pathless path than others, pointing the way, much like the slightly less blind guiding the totally blind! I would also add though that when we spot ego patterns in others, just because its projection, doesnt mean that its a necessarily inaccurate assumption.
|
|
|
Post by ivory on Sept 5, 2011 16:37:33 GMT -5
I agree with the last part actually. I'm in a similar place. I guess you can say that the desire to battle ego has run it's course (or is close to that I suspect).
I was poking at was the word "devious" but I wasn't necessarily calling you out on anything. I was really verbalizing the recognition of that hamster wheel on this end.
Peace my brother!
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Sept 5, 2011 16:46:53 GMT -5
I agree with the last part actually. I'm in a similar place. I guess you can say that the desire to battle ego has run it's course (or is close to that I suspect). I was poking at was the word "devious" but I wasn't necessarily calling you out on anything. I was really verbalizing the recognition of that hamster wheel on this end. Peace my brother! Hi Ivory, Thats cool. Just want to add that the word 'devious' isnt one I would often use to describe ego, and actually in some conversations I might be telling someone to stop being mean to the ego! It all depends on the conversation and who Im talking to. In a way, I try and talk the language of the person Im talking to and I felt that tathagata might understand and relate to what I meant there. The difficulty with forums is that we are all reading the same messages! Its all part of the fun though isnt it Peace to you too. Andrew
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 19:22:32 GMT -5
well i take it as a given that the ego is devious and that self deception can run so deep and so subtle that it can be imperceptible. one thing i like about RT (and i say this reluctantly), is that they put on airs of being able to call out the devious ego and self-deception. that part can be helpful in the beginning. but their quality control on the subtle levels just isn't there, and they're too quick to smack the free/liberated label on folks -- like me, for example. they're a one-trick pony. but it's not especially a fancy trick in retrospect.
the idea of being already enlightened is totally an idea to me -- purely conceptual -- despite claims by enlightened folks to the contrary -- a la everyone is already enlightened.
what i'm looking for is a looking that is non-conceptual in essence, not something that is tasted when i remember to do it.
sometimes i wonder if the difference is just confidence. right now i'm particularly attached to the concept that self deception runs imperceptibly deep. this causes me to question whether what seems like non-conceptual awareness is just more fancy mind-play. but i'm open to the possibility that there is no self to be deceptive and that the attachment to ideas of self-deception is just reflexive mind-play itself. anyhoo, when folks say you have to trust yourself 100%, it resonates, because i am far from that. however, i've seen lots of folks overflowing with self-trust while also spouting off what-seems-to-me-like unenlightened ego-strokes in the name of being free, liberated, awake, enlightened, what-have-you-cool-sounding state. not surprising that there are lots of visitors here at spiritualteachers of that type.
|
|
|
Post by ivory on Sept 5, 2011 19:42:50 GMT -5
If you think about the word devious, it can only be defined by other concepts. The word devious to me draws up images or things that I perceive as bad, evil, or things that "shouldn't be". And you most likely have different definitions of those things than I do because we have different conditioning.
So here is ego trying to get rid of things that it thinks shouldn't be there. Well, how the heck would it know what shouldn't be there? Based on what evidence?
Yeah, those RT'ers are a trip. I think I was one of the first that came and left. I'm baffled at the fact that they still think they've got it. I see that as major self-deception. Thinking they know something. I especially find it interesting that they quote Jed McKenna left and right, but have failed to grasp when he meant when he said, "further."
Speaking of self-deception, what you are referring to, and what do you mean by "runs deep?"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 19:51:40 GMT -5
If you think about the word devious, it can only be defined by other concepts. The word devious to me draws up images or things that I perceive as bad, evil, or things that "shouldn't be". And you most likely have different definitions of those things than I do because we have different conditioning. So here is ego trying to get rid of things that it thinks shouldn't be there. Well, how the heck would it know what shouldn't be there? Based on what evidence? Yeah, those RT'ers are a trip. I think I was one of the first that came and left. I'm baffled at the fact that they still think they've got it. I see that as major self-deception. Thinking they know something. I especially find it interesting that they quote Jed McKenna left and right, but have failed to grasp when he meant when he said, "further." Speaking of self-deception, what you are referring to, and what do you mean by "runs deep?" i use devious to mean basically 'based on lies,' a variation of dishonesty. not what is. for example, when one thinks they are tuned into what is, they aren't. 'yep, got it.' -- wrong! so self-deception running deep is just saying the same thing. for instance, the claim of being enlightened is fundamentally suspect. one could be thinking they are enlightened and it's ultimately just another self-deception. the funny thing is that i'm using the term self-deception. it's deception or delusion meant to uphold self.
|
|
|
Post by tathagata on Sept 5, 2011 20:40:27 GMT -5
ego is the means, the mechanism by which creation is made manifest out of the stillness of conciousness...so its hard to say ego is bad becuase if all ego everyplace in every sentient being was elimanated creation would would cease to exist and fall back into nonbeing being.
having said that...if you want to be in intimate direct experience of your whole being and you are not already...then you have to let go of the attachment to self, ideas, and things....becuase that attachment is really a limiting of, or a focusing of your vision to a specific part or parts of you....think of it like removing your focus from part of the bowl to the whole bowl at once..(good technique by the way lol)
a note on saying you are enlightened or not saying you are enlightened...attachment is a coin with two sides, rejection and approval, like and dislike etc...attachment is by nature polar and polarizing...if you hate something you are just as attached to it as you are when you like something...often more so becuase the feeling is more palpable...I have said I was enlightened here in part becuase the ratings page of this site spoke negatively of people who said they were enlightened...this is an attachment to an idea, it may be the opposite side of the attachment coin as acceptance, but rejection or disapproval is attachment too...if you are enlightened and not attached to anything then whether are saying you are enlightened or not enlightened, it doesnt matter...and your ego/attachment, or lack there of is not going to be moved or created in any way by saying you are enlightened or not saying you are enlightened...its also not going to be created or moved by other people saying whether you are enlightened or not...becuase there is no attachment to it, there is no attachment "for" or "against" it. I will quote bodhidharma here though, or parphrase him..."there is no mind but mind, and enlightenment only exists in your mind."
|
|
|
Post by onehandclapping on Sept 5, 2011 21:19:05 GMT -5
This is getting entertaining. I am excited to read more posts with this person who claims to be a teacher or claims abilities to answer questions. Who claims to have backed out the cell. Or whatever else he talks of. I believe you've clearly seen it, at least a glimpse. I too came on this site shortly after and thought I had a "far back out of the cell" perspective. I was pleasantly surprised to find a month later that my sneaky ego had built another imagined self. A teacher self. I wonder if something similar is going on here? I guess we'll find out. I'm sure you will have some wonderful insight on this comment as well. This is interesting...no where he have I said that i am or want to be a teacher...this a storyline that has developed in people though...is it better to view me as someone who thinks he is a teacher or to look inside and see where this idea came from? As an aside...a big part of the row in the other thread was me saying that the ego needs to be exhuasted not just stopped, and that effort is needed until the ego cannot go on and surrenders to death...if you don't do this you will experience many periods of be enlightened mixed with periods where the ego creaps back in...and the more this happens the sneakier and more devious the ego gets in hiding itself....enigmas ego is very well hidden...zendancers is hanging on by a thread and is very very well hidden...acewalls is gone dead and buried LOL. much if the back and forth in the other thread is that dharma dual zendancer was talking about with the loans...the reason masters do this is partly for fun...but its also to uncover any ego that is sneaking around...enigma lost when he started thinking that he wasn't being listened to...and that some sanity was needed...zendancer lost and ego was revealed when he got into the idea that there was a cigereete man that could or could not be tuaght and that expectations placed by anyone could affect him in some way...me and acewall came to a draw of no ego in a very brief encounter and now we are in a dharma dance in the other thread not a dharma dual...as an aside the confusing nature of the whole thing is to illustrate a point...and that is the futility of categorizing and philosophizing this topic for any other outcome than mire ego and more illusion...undoing helps and not much undoing is happening here. Hahaha. Enigma and ZD lost! That is funny. I didnt know there was something to win. You could be the funniest person on here Tath. It's funny that you say you are not a teacher but yet you seem to align yourself with masters in your words above. One would draw the conclusion that you have answers to questions. After all isn't that what you said?
|
|
|
Post by tathagata on Sept 5, 2011 21:22:00 GMT -5
This is interesting...no where he have I said that i am or want to be a teacher...this a storyline that has developed in people though...is it better to view me as someone who thinks he is a teacher or to look inside and see where this idea came from? As an aside...a big part of the row in the other thread was me saying that the ego needs to be exhuasted not just stopped, and that effort is needed until the ego cannot go on and surrenders to death...if you don't do this you will experience many periods of be enlightened mixed with periods where the ego creaps back in...and the more this happens the sneakier and more devious the ego gets in hiding itself....enigmas ego is very well hidden...zendancers is hanging on by a thread and is very very well hidden...acewalls is gone dead and buried LOL. much if the back and forth in the other thread is that dharma dual zendancer was talking about with the loans...the reason masters do this is partly for fun...but its also to uncover any ego that is sneaking around...enigma lost when he started thinking that he wasn't being listened to...and that some sanity was needed...zendancer lost and ego was revealed when he got into the idea that there was a cigereete man that could or could not be tuaght and that expectations placed by anyone could affect him in some way...me and acewall came to a draw of no ego in a very brief encounter and now we are in a dharma dance in the other thread not a dharma dual...as an aside the confusing nature of the whole thing is to illustrate a point...and that is the futility of categorizing and philosophizing this topic for any other outcome than mire ego and more illusion...undoing helps and not much undoing is happening here. Hahaha. Enigma and ZD lost! That is funny. I didnt know there was something to win. You could be the funniest person on here Tath. It's funny that you say you are not a teacher but yet you seem to align yourself with masters in your words above. One would draw the conclusion that you have answers to questions. After all isn't that what you said? lol...look at zendancers post regarding zen monks engaging in dharma duals for context... also...why is it of all the things I have said this one is the one that stands out to you most...where does the attachment to this sentence chain versus another sentence chain come from?
|
|
|
Post by tathagata on Sept 6, 2011 0:33:28 GMT -5
the ego needs to be exhuasted not just stopped, and that effort is needed until the ego cannot go on and surrenders to death...if you don't do this you will experience many periods of being enlightened mixed with periods where the ego creaps back in...and the more this happens the sneakier and more devious the ego gets in hiding itself....quote] I've narrowed that down a bit so its a little more difficult to run away from lol On another note about teaching and the dream you have invented for yourself about Tathagata....Do you think those masters claimed to be teachers?...do you think they were teachers?...how can a mindless egoless unattached being be a teacher? that would be a neat trick...if you know this trick can you teach it to me, I will willingly be your student?....on another note as to questions and answers...is the last person you asked what time it was your teacher?, Were you his student?...and if you take the philosophical view and say in a way yes he was teaching you what time it was and that you were learning what time it was, then the question remains: Was he claiming to be a teacher and were you claiming to be a student?...better yet...claim or not...was anyone wanting to be a teacher or a student?
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Sept 6, 2011 5:05:04 GMT -5
well i take it as a given that the ego is devious and that self deception can run so deep and so subtle that it can be imperceptible. one thing i like about RT (and i say this reluctantly), is that they put on airs of being able to call out the devious ego and self-deception. that part can be helpful in the beginning. but their quality control on the subtle levels just isn't there, and they're too quick to smack the free/liberated label on folks -- like me, for example. they're a one-trick pony. but it's not especially a fancy trick in retrospect. the idea of being already enlightened is totally an idea to me -- purely conceptual -- despite claims by enlightened folks to the contrary -- a la everyone is already enlightened. what i'm looking for is a looking that is non-conceptual in essence, not something that is tasted when i remember to do it. sometimes i wonder if the difference is just confidence. right now i'm particularly attached to the concept that self deception runs imperceptibly deep. this causes me to question whether what seems like non-conceptual awareness is just more fancy mind-play. but i'm open to the possibility that there is no self to be deceptive and that the attachment to ideas of self-deception is just reflexive mind-play itself. anyhoo, when folks say you have to trust yourself 100%, it resonates, because i am far from that. however, i've seen lots of folks overflowing with self-trust while also spouting off what-seems-to-me-like unenlightened ego-strokes in the name of being free, liberated, awake, enlightened, what-have-you-cool-sounding state. not surprising that there are lots of visitors here at spiritualteachers of that type. Again, based on this, you still sound pretty much enlightened to me hehe. What do you expect from non-conceptual looking? What do you expect the experience of non-conceptual looking to be like? From where I am sat, I reckon you probably already are non-conceptually looking to a relatively high degree already. In my opinion, the non-dual path has taken you as far as it can go. It seems to me that you 'get' it. If there is a big hurt somewhere in the pipeline, it will come to you. And there may be more than one. I still cry sometimes. I quite like it though when crying happens these days. This may sound like a very odd question, but are you familiar with the manifestation body of work? Abraham-Hicks, Joe Vitale, Rhonda Byrne etc? I might be wrong, but I kind of think that rather than use your energy trying to get to 'that final moment' it might be worth investing some energy into some manifesting instead. Even if you are not interested in tangible things (like money) you could always manifest some intangible stuff like joyful relationships. Anyway, its just an idea.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2011 8:55:16 GMT -5
Again, based on this, you still sound pretty much enlightened to me hehe. well i just googled "enlightened" and got: 1. Having or showing a rational, modern, and well-informed outlook. 2. Spiritually aware. so yea, maybe i can put the enlightened badge on. but then i would look like a dope with an enlightened badge on. the whole enlightened thing is just a worn out sock. i'll leave it in the corner for things that can be used to clean my bike chain. i'm fixated on the 'abiding' concept. non-conceptual awareness is something we all have from birth. no biggy. but abiding non-conceptual awareness; that sort of just looking, just sitting, just whatever, is what i'm shooting for. enough with being lost in thought, reacting from defending something, reacting from wanting to prove something. there's a lot more happening here, mr. jones. Lightmystic said "Awakening is coming for you. You're screwed." bring it on! interesting.. will consider.
|
|
|
Post by tathagata on Sept 6, 2011 10:52:45 GMT -5
Be aware of the awareness of doing.
As an aside...I've been having a side conversation with further about why I put a book called "the master key system"in with a recommended reading post in the spiritual teachers section....it is a book along the lines of the Abraham-hicks stuff but has a more practical step by step approach than many other books in category...its by a guy named Charles haanel....
In any case...the first question I asked max here was what he wanted...if he said the first option I listed I would have recomended manifesting techniques...manifesting techniques are wonderful even in the search for self realization as they give you a very visceral experience of the thought based nature of reality...which can be useful...it can also lead down the path of ego wherein you manifest something that you use for pleasure or happiness, but for the ego that level of happiness and pleasure will never be enough...the ego always adjusts to its new circumstance and wants more....its the means and nature of creation...still though...it can be useful to experience directly and conciously your role in the creation process...try it out if you are drawn to it...it won't move you any closer to being without attachment, which is the mechanism of all suffering and discontent...but honestly it doesn't matter if the removal of attachment to everything including yourself takes a million years...Becuase once you've done it time becomes large irrelavent anyway...there is an argument to be made that this life is really just an entertainment...so why not manifest some entertaining stuff for a while LOL.
|
|