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Post by unveilable on Aug 28, 2011 14:16:30 GMT -5
I think that confused me more. Im pretty sure what you are saying is what I am doing intuitively but let me see if we can nail this down. Another way of saying observe the observer is to say be awareness watching awareness yes? So here are some examples taken from www.albigen.com/uarelove/awa_instructions.aspxThe Practice Instructions Description A Shut your eyes. Notice your awareness. Observe that awareness. Turn your attention away from the world, body and thought, and towards awareness watching awareness. If you notice you are thinking, turn your attention away from thought and back towards awareness watching awareness. Description B Look out at the room, notice your awareness looking out through your eyes. Now shut your eyes and notice that same awareness is still there, that a moment ago was looking outward at the room. Observe that awareness. If you are not having many thoughts, just ignore them and continue with awareness observing awareness. If you seem to be having a lot of thoughts, then just turn your attention away from the thoughts and towards awareness observing awareness. Description C Shut your eyes. Notice that you are conscious. Watch that consciousness. If you notice thoughts, just ignore them and continue watching your consciousness. Do not watch your thoughts, watch your consciousness. Consciousness watching consciousness. Consciousness conscious of consciousness. If this is what you are talking about then yes I can and do do that just for fun but wasn't sure if it was really something that would benefit me.
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Post by tathagata on Aug 28, 2011 17:09:16 GMT -5
that is a wonderfully concise explanation of the technique....there is nothing that will benefit you more...or rather, this is one of many techniques that will take you to samadhi...and samadhi and enlightenment are one and the same, and nothing will benefit you more than samadhi...this technique helps you reach samadhi, or the silent stillness formless conciousness that is your true nature.
when you are in Samadhi you are in stillness, and of stillness, and in this state you are sobered up from maya...this is a wonderful technique to achieve this.
Here is another for you to try so you can see that the state of still unbeing being is there at the center no matter what you do...all techniques for sobering up take away the veil of maya that covers the still formless eternal conciousness that is you....the Sufi's use the expression clearing the rust from your heart...
Another technique:
Stand or lay quitly and imagine a fire that burns with such intensity that it leaves only ash where it has burned.
Now imagine that fire burning away your body to nothing but ash starting from your toes and moving up your body to the top of your head until you are all burned away.
Another Technique: Imagine your body to be an empty shell of skin...inside every part of your body is nothing but emptyness.
Another: imagine your mind to be limitless black space and your thoughts are clouds moving through....your mind is limitless black empty space
the more time you spend in the state of unbeing being that these kind of techniques open up for you, the more free and less mired in maya you will be....there is nothing more useful if freedom, and clarity, and enlightenment is what you want.
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Post by ivory on Aug 28, 2011 17:23:09 GMT -5
"samadhi and enlightenment are one and the same"
No, they are not the same. Samadhi is a state (albeit a very pleasant one). Samadhi may be experienced through meditation techniques, but one shouldn't make it a goal.
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Post by tathagata on Aug 28, 2011 17:25:15 GMT -5
what is your definition of Samadhi ivory?
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Post by unveilable on Aug 28, 2011 18:13:02 GMT -5
Ok I am now confident that I understand where you are pointing so will work on this for a while. I had some reservations about this sort of meditation in the past and I want to see if they persist before I check back here. Mainly I feared I was shutting out the 'real' world. that is a wonderfully concise explanation of the technique....there is nothing that will benefit you more...or rather, this is one of many techniques that will take you to samadhi...and samadhi and enlightenment are one and the same, and nothing will benefit you more than samadhi...this technique helps you reach samadhi, or the silent stillness formless conciousness that is your true nature. when you are in Samadhi you are in stillness, and of stillness, and in this state you are sobered up from maya...this is a wonderful technique to achieve this. Here is another for you to try so you can see that the state of still unbeing being is there at the center no matter what you do...all techniques for sobering up take away the veil of maya that covers the still formless eternal conciousness that is you....the Sufi's use the expression clearing the rust from your heart... Another technique: Stand or lay quitly and imagine a fire that burns with such intensity that it leaves only ash where it has burned. Now imagine that fire burning away your body to nothing but ash starting from your toes and moving up your body to the top of your head until you are all burned away. Another Technique: Imagine your body to be an empty shell of skin...inside every part of your body is nothing but emptyness. Another: imagine your mind to be limitless black space and your thoughts are clouds moving through....your mind is limitless black empty space the more time you spend in the state of unbeing being that these kind of techniques open up for you, the more free and less mired in maya you will be....there is nothing more useful if freedom, and clarity, and enlightenment is what you want.
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Post by tathagata on Aug 28, 2011 18:21:54 GMT -5
"Mainly I feared I was shutting out the 'real' world. "
thats just your ego/addiction-to-maya talking to you trying to defend itself ;-)
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Post by tathagata on Aug 28, 2011 21:42:17 GMT -5
If it helps ease your fears.. think of yourself as in the world but not of it unveilable.
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Post by ivory on Aug 28, 2011 23:12:43 GMT -5
what is your definition of Samadhi ivory? I actually had to look it up when I was told that what I've been experiencing in meditation was called samadhi. I told one teacher about some weird shit happening in meditation and she told me, "Don't seek states." I already knew this, but I think she's used to people seeking states so she figured I was doing the same. Anyways, what I've been experiencing, whether it fits your definition of samadhi or not, is a sense of thin/blurriness of the senses. When I sit in meditation these days, it feels like my body is going to completely disappear. The boundaries that appear to separate inner from outer almost dissolve completely. Something like pure consciousness. @ Ivory If you define samadhi as a state of open blissfullness that sometimes happens in meditation then you are right, it is a thing that happens but is not a goal that is useful...but the problem is that the blissful "state" that people can experience in some forms of meditation (like sitting Zazen), is sometimes mistaken for samadhi...it is not samadhi...Samadhi is the open state of unbeing being, or rather it is the thing that is undescribable and is the same as enlightenment. So are you saying that enlightenment can be achieved over and over again? In most of your writings in this blog you display a keen and contemplative mind. This tells me that you do more than just think unconciously, that instead you contemplate conciously at least some of the time...several posts ago I talked to unveilable about contemplation (COncious thinking), and how it can provide a very high level of clarity and accuracy in thought...you clearly have this down, your writings are almost all accurate, concise, and informed as only a truelly intelligent and contemplative mind can be....but I can only urge you in the most strong way to shift your priorities from contemplation to practice, only through practice will know the nature of samadhi/enlightenment/being/unbeing...contemplative conciously thinking intellect can understand something clearly...but only experience can know it. I try to speak from experience. Not from belief. Nor do I accept what any one else says no matter how "enlightened" they claim to be. I am curious as to why you think I'm not practicing. Do you realize that you are telling yourself stories? What do you know to be true?
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Post by tathagata on Aug 29, 2011 5:32:56 GMT -5
@ Ivory
Saying the words "shift your priorities from contemplation to practice" is not saying that you are not practicing...
Samadhi is not a blurring/thinning of any senses, but this is very close to entering, look inside the thinned out senses at what IS there and enter that isness/stillness and you are in samadhi....when I see I see so accutely that I can see beyond the temperary form of a thing and can see the actual, what is real and permanent, I can see that which is beyond words...stillness, permanency, isness, suchness, conciousness, the formless form...that which is being and unbeing and not being and not unbeing...the formless eternal still isness that all forms are in and that all forms are pervaded by. When I smell it is there inside every smell and every smell is inside it...when the part of the continuas fabric of mind that is steven thinks a thought that thought is within and is pervaded by and is witnessed without witnessing by stillness....sounds are the same, touch the same, emotions the same, minding the same...when you are IN and OF the isness, the actual, the stillness, you are in samadhi....you are enlightened...and yes...this happens many times in life...when you sneeze there is a flash of samadhi in a moment just before and just after the sneeze ( in fact this is a useful practice, just as you are entering a sneeze be alert and aware in that moment and you can enter samadhi) if you have ever had a great shock that stunned you silent on inside and out and that silence penetrated and transcended you, you had a flash of samadhi, in that moment you were a budha. lol, the entire country of Brasil has a moment of samadhi everytime the brasilian National soccer team kicks a ball at the goal in the world cup. Almost the whole country is in a moment of enlightnement at once lol.
Stare so intently at an object that nothing exists but that object, your staring at the object, and your observing yourself staring at the object, and then withdraw your awareness from the object so that only the staring and the observing of the staring exists, then withdraw the staring so only the observing of the staring exists, then withdraw the observing so it doesnt exists....if you do this and stay alert you will have a flash of samadhi, with practice the flash can be made longer...with other practices you can spend more and more of your life in samadhi/enlightenment....in samadhi/enlightenment you see hear feel smell taste and mind what IS, you see through the veil of maya to the actual and are unattached to form or the actual, the forms and thoughts flow, the conciousness is eternal and unmoving unshaping...you and everyone else has had flashes of this throughout their life...in meditation these flashes become more than a flash, they gradually become more sustained...but you will move back into maya from even more sustained samadhi...you will move back and forth from maya to enlightenment/samadhi until you are tired of it, and are no longer afraid to go without maya, i.e. until you are no longer afraid to let go of the ego for good...the more time you spend in samadhi the more your mind will be prepared to surrender itself permanently to it. This is becuase the mind is addicted to maya and samadhi breaks the addiction...samadhi is you being sober from maya and seeing your true full self as a continual unfolding of nonbeing being that is happening in, and is pervaded by the stillness, the actual, the eternal..
If its easier to come to terms with it think of it in the terms of drug addiction...addicts arent high all the time, neither is anyone attached in maya all the time, sometimes you are enlightened, sometimes you are in maya, this is true even if the enlightenment has only been in momentary flashes before...the spiritual "seeker" is one that thinks that being in maya or being high all the time is bad for them, and they are seeking a way out into soberness (which is enlightenment/samadhi)...but just becuase an addict knows he needs to quit getting high (absorbed in maya) and needs to stay sober(stay in samadhi/enlightenmet) doesnt mean they are REALLY ready to do it...so they go on and on going back and forth between maya and samadhi until they have finally had enough and hit rock bottom....then it can happen...you can have ultimate enlightenment where you never get attached to anything in maya again, the addiction is no more...you may not like the words ultimate enlightenment...but they are just words meaning that the person hit rock bottom and are not going to break there sobriety ever again...so enlightenment in this vernacular is being free from maya attachment in that particular moment...while ultimate enlightenment in this vernacular is breaking the cycle of going back and forth and staying sober.
Over and over in your life you have had samadhi and been enlightened...but it was only a flash of your true self shining thru, the glimpse does not last long enough for you to recognize it, but once you do recognize it, and give up searching for something more than what IS, you can see that it was there all along.
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Post by onehandclapping on Sept 5, 2011 9:16:38 GMT -5
This is getting entertaining. I am excited to read more posts with this person who claims to be a teacher or claims abilities to answer questions. Who claims to have backed out the cell. Or whatever else he talks of. I believe you've clearly seen it, at least a glimpse. I too came on this site shortly after and thought I had a "far back out of the cell" perspective. I was pleasantly surprised to find a month later that my sneaky ego had built another imagined self. A teacher self. I wonder if something similar is going on here? I guess we'll find out. I'm sure you will have some wonderful insight on this comment as well.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2011 10:08:37 GMT -5
Tathagata is an encyclopedia/reference of practices and tricks. Why not try some of 'em out is sort of my perspective. Why not? Can it hurt?
Of course I'm looking for the Big Hurt -- as in annihilation of the sense of separation. So one of these tricks pulls that trigger, so be it.
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Post by andrew on Sept 5, 2011 15:10:07 GMT -5
Tathagata is an encyclopedia/reference of practices and tricks. Why not try some of 'em out is sort of my perspective. Why not? Can it hurt? Of course I'm looking for the Big Hurt -- as in annihilation of the sense of separation. So one of these tricks pulls that trigger, so be it. If you go with the idea that you already are enlightened maxdprophet, what would that mean to you? Im just wondering if maybe you pretty much are enlightened, but you might have a slightly unreasonable expectation as to what being enlightened is like...?
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Post by tathagata on Sept 5, 2011 15:36:45 GMT -5
This is getting entertaining. I am excited to read more posts with this person who claims to be a teacher or claims abilities to answer questions. Who claims to have backed out the cell. Or whatever else he talks of. I believe you've clearly seen it, at least a glimpse. I too came on this site shortly after and thought I had a "far back out of the cell" perspective. I was pleasantly surprised to find a month later that my sneaky ego had built another imagined self. A teacher self. I wonder if something similar is going on here? I guess we'll find out. I'm sure you will have some wonderful insight on this comment as well. This is interesting...no where he have I said that i am or want to be a teacher...this a storyline that has developed in people though...is it better to view me as someone who thinks he is a teacher or to look inside and see where this idea came from? As an aside...a big part of the row in the other thread was me saying that the ego needs to be exhuasted not just stopped, and that effort is needed until the ego cannot go on and surrenders to death...if you don't do this you will experience many periods of be enlightened mixed with periods where the ego creaps back in...and the more this happens the sneakier and more devious the ego gets in hiding itself....enigmas ego is very well hidden...zendancers is hanging on by a thread and is very very well hidden...acewalls is gone dead and buried LOL. much if the back and forth in the other thread is that dharma dual zendancer was talking about with the loans...the reason masters do this is partly for fun...but its also to uncover any ego that is sneaking around...enigma lost when he started thinking that he wasn't being listened to...and that some sanity was needed...zendancer lost and ego was revealed when he got into the idea that there was a cigereete man that could or could not be tuaght and that expectations placed by anyone could affect him in some way...me and acewall came to a draw of no ego in a very brief encounter and now we are in a dharma dance in the other thread not a dharma dual...as an aside the confusing nature of the whole thing is to illustrate a point...and that is the futility of categorizing and philosophizing this topic for any other outcome than mire ego and more illusion...undoing helps and not much undoing is happening here.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 5, 2011 15:50:09 GMT -5
Tathagata is an encyclopedia/reference of practices and tricks. Why not try some of 'em out is sort of my perspective. Why not? Can it hurt? Of course I'm looking for the Big Hurt -- as in annihilation of the sense of separation. So one of these tricks pulls that trigger, so be it. If you go with the idea that you already are enlightened maxdprophet, what would that mean to you? Im just wondering if maybe you pretty much are enlightened, but you might have a slightly unreasonable expectation as to what being enlightened is like...? Andrew that is maybe one of the most accurate and useful statements I've seen in this forum...but the issue is that until a person is ready through the exhuastiin or surrender of the ego they can never experience it and really know it to be true...no matter how many times you say it there will be no experience of this until there is a direct experience of it...intellectual understanding is not enough to lift the illusion....telling people is not enough, they have to see for themselves...theres no other way really....no matter how smart or talented someone is...ultimately they have to see for themselves...to see for themselves they need to remove the illusions covering the obvious...this is the benefit of an undoing technique.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 5, 2011 15:54:09 GMT -5
Tathagata is an encyclopedia/reference of practices and tricks. Why not try some of 'em out is sort of my perspective. Why not? Can it hurt? Of course I'm looking for the Big Hurt -- as in annihilation of the sense of separation. So one of these tricks pulls that trigger, so be it. :-)...a techniques benefit is in the doing not the talking about it or judging it...and the only techniques that are beneficial in this endeavor are the ones that undo.
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