|
Post by tathagata on Aug 18, 2011 19:31:26 GMT -5
If anyone is getting stuck on something, or having some difficulty in their search, I may be able to help...post your question or issue here.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2011 8:33:33 GMT -5
hi tathagata,
that’s a nice invitation. thanks and welcome!
i have a really hard time asking questions or stating issues clearly. i practiced vipassana and zen for a long time and had the same issue whenever the opportunity arose to discuss something with a teacher. The answers to my questions are out their already, spelled out in the 4 noble truths etc. It’s like asking a question always seemed like playing a part.
Mostly because of a paradigm shift in life (i became a parent), i stopped practicing. But the hunger remained. At one point a few years ago, while on commute and listening to a local radio show, i heard a couple of incredulous buddhists trying to make sense of Jed Mckenna’s Blues for Buddha essay. JM in his inimitable way really got on under their skin with his challenge of ‘western buddhism’ (if i remember correctly, he was saying that western buddhism was peddling compassionitism and not awakening. stuff to make you feel better, go to retreats and buy books). This appealed to some of my own frustrations with buddhism.
Anyhoo, I read Mckenna’s three books and that was sort of a gateway drug to all sorts of other drugs in the advaita world, which i’ve been consuming voraciously for a couple years now. For the last half year or so I’ve been kind of bopping back and forth between ‘attending the actual’ which is sort of like a focused zen practice or vipassana (see this forum’s zendancer for more on that) and a typical ‘who am i’ type of inquiry (shifting the focus onto that which is aware, that vast emptiness). i haven’t found time to just sit and do these and tend to do them throughout the day.
So as for an issue or question. Hmm, this morning i had a little kerfuffle with my partner having to do with a homemade pinata (fitting, eh -- whack!). Anger came up. I noticed that all sorts of storyline was being layered over the anger. So i just tried to attend to the anger emotion. Just soak it up, feel it. It went away, as usual. Generally life is pretty pleasant. I’d say equanimity and peace is the primary state. But there’s still bouts of anxiety, anger, fear etc. One fear that comes up is this sort of enlightenment pursuit could really destroy all my relationships. Hey it’s a fear. These negative emotions are so easy to see/feel. It all comes and goes.
But I read and listen to this stuff and think jeez these folks really seem to be speaking from a place that says there is more peace or more light or more wakefulness so here i am trying to ask someone like this, “is there more?”
The separateness is still there but maybe because of all the equanimity training, the suffering that results from that is dealt with (by not dealing with it). Don't know. And here are these fingers tapping away at these keys hoping for tathagata to shoot the silver bullet.
|
|
|
Post by popee on Aug 19, 2011 11:49:51 GMT -5
Sorry for the pm tathagata, I didn't see this thread beforehand
Stuck? Hell, its all sticky. lol
Intellectually, I get the gist of the matter. But I suspect my intellect ain't gonna lead me to the promised land. My vision is askew, just that millionth of a degree, which is keeping the Real just out of focus. (maybe)
Or perhaps it is the ego which offends me. Like a parasite attacking its host. But also like one of those symbiotic relationships, where if one party dies, both die.
I want my ego dead. But apparently "I" am afraid of dying.
Did you kill your ego? Did it need killing? How did you do it?
|
|
|
Post by vacant on Aug 19, 2011 14:58:56 GMT -5
hi tathagata, that’s a nice invitation. thanks and welcome! i have a really hard time asking questions or stating issues clearly. i practiced vipassana and zen for a long time and had the same issue whenever the opportunity arose to discuss something with a teacher. The answers to my questions are out their already, spelled out in the 4 noble truths etc. It’s like asking a question always seemed like playing a part. Mostly because of a paradigm shift in life (i became a parent), i stopped practicing. But the hunger remained. At one point a few years ago, while on commute and listening to a local radio show, i heard a couple of incredulous buddhists trying to make sense of Jed Mckenna’s Blues for Buddha essay. JM in his inimitable way really got on under their skin with his challenge of ‘western buddhism’ (if i remember correctly, he was saying that western buddhism was peddling compassionitism and not awakening. stuff to make you feel better, go to retreats and buy books). This appealed to some of my own frustrations with buddhism. Anyhoo, I read Mckenna’s three books and that was sort of a gateway drug to all sorts of other drugs in the advaita world, which i’ve been consuming voraciously for a couple years now. For the last half year or so I’ve been kind of bopping back and forth between ‘attending the actual’ which is sort of like a focused zen practice or vipassana (see this forum’s zendancer for more on that) and a typical ‘who am i’ type of inquiry (shifting the focus onto that which is aware, that vast emptiness). i haven’t found time to just sit and do these and tend to do them throughout the day. So as for an issue or question. Hmm, this morning i had a little kerfuffle with my partner having to do with a homemade pinata (fitting, eh -- whack!). Anger came up. I noticed that all sorts of storyline was being layered over the anger. So i just tried to attend to the anger emotion. Just soak it up, feel it. It went away, as usual. Generally life is pretty pleasant. I’d say equanimity and peace is the primary state. But there’s still bouts of anxiety, anger, fear etc. One fear that comes up is this sort of enlightenment pursuit could really destroy all my relationships. Hey it’s a fear. These negative emotions are so easy to see/feel. It all comes and goes. But I read and listen to this stuff and think jeez these folks really seem to be speaking from a place that says there is more peace or more light or more wakefulness so here i am trying to ask someone like this, “is there more?” The separateness is still there but maybe because of all the equanimity training, the suffering that results from that is dealt with (by not dealing with it). Don't know. And here are these fingers tapping away at these keys hoping for tathagata to shoot the silver bullet. Max, you rule. absolute respect for honesty and openness to what comes. You speak the voice I could have if I was more articulate and clearer on the inside weather! Refreshing.
|
|
|
Post by tathagata on Aug 19, 2011 18:56:17 GMT -5
A seeker sent me the following PM, I have redacted a few personal sentences but left the rest in its entirety…it is followed by the response…please feel free to contact me in this thread or in PM, whichever you prefer…but I may post parts of the PM in the open thread so others may benefit from the questions and answers too…I will remove sentences of a sensitive or personal nature, and the senders name or ID for their privacy when it is originated in PM form.
The PM:
“I seek Truth. Desperately longing for Truth. Its the first thing on my mind upon waking, the last before sleep, and all day in-between. Obsessive-compulsive I suppose. Even my health is being neglected.
That doesn't mean I'm some religious zombie. I do my work, interact with friends and family, watch TV; everything I've always done. Except, now, while I'm doing those things, I'm observing myself do them, and trying to discern which is real, and which is false. (Difficult to explain)
I am extremely solitary. I don't think there's a single person around me who knows how intently "spiritual" I am. Nearly everyone I know is deeply entrenched in "the insanity" (not that I seek to be a judge (even though I find myself failing at that constantly)).
This "longing" started a long time ago. About 15 years ago, the Universe sent me a message, "Admit ignorance before your next step". That little sentence affected me, I started to see how I was always believing myself to be "right". About everything. Once I acknowledged that I wasn't 'right', my perceptions started to shift. I became more flexible, like putty.
About a year or two ago, "this thing" went into overdrive. I knew I was incomplete, and sought to regain whatever had been lost. Being an internet junkie, and having lots of free time due to my job, I started seeking information which might assist me. I read about Blavatsky, Gurdieff, and others. Then a hermetic book called the Kyballion, which seemed like important, but forgotten wisdom. I kept plodding along, finally latching on to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle. I spent several months listening to his audiobooks, and I began to better understand my ego, and the voice in my head.
Eventually I was done with him, and moved on to Ramana and Nisargadatta. Those teachings seemed the best pointers to Truth I'd ever seen, but honestly they're likely "above my pay grade" at this point. But I believe that truth recognizes truth when it sees it, and I know those two men saw truth quite well.
More internet, and I found the TAT foundation. I'm not exactly "a member" but it feels like a group I'd like to be a part of. I sent out some emails, and ended up having some nice exchanges with Bart Marshall and Art Ticknor.
I just recently bought their books, Art's On Solid Ground of Being, and Bart's The Perennial Way, both quite nice. Inside of Bart's is his translation of the Ashtavakra Gita, and not having read that before, I was blown away by its simplicity and truthfulness.
I generally say, "I don't have any beliefs", which is mostly true, but obviously not entirely. It seems like beliefs are anchors which hold you back from exploring further. I don't align myself with any "faith", I suppose I like Tao and Zen the best, even though really I don't know much about either. I never meditate as an assigned practice, but I frequently turn off the thinker in my head, and reside in the silence within. While looking out the front window, I can feel the perfection coming through the back door (assuming you know what I mean).
I know in my gut "I" don't exist. It’s an illusion. That my ego is responsible for the fears and desires, the false sense of separation. But, I don't know exactly how to rid myself of that bastard.”
The Response:
No worries of intrusion....I can no more be intruded upon by you than the air is intruded upon by the wind as the air moves from one place to another within itself...it’s just a movement, that is all. It’s just a movement within our self.
A note on ego...much has been said about it being the problem....this is only true if you believe this is true. There is some value in this thought but only in the very beginning of your exploration of yourself, when you are at that basic or beginner stage, and then again at the very last stage. Enlightened ones of the past have said the ego is bad not because it is really bad, they have said this because they are tricking you into looking inward. If you say something is bad and hurting you then you become focused on looking at it. In reality ego is just the hand of creation, the tools by which creation in moved forward. It is neither good nor bad, it is just a perspective, or vantage point of observation.
Imagine you are locked in a large cell with one window. There or curtains on the window and they are only opened a few inches in the center. That gap in the curtains is your ego. If you open the curtains the rest of the way and expand your view the original view is still there, but it is a part of the more larger view now. Is it good or bad, or just a small part of the larger view available to you?
The only benefits to looking at the ego as bad are that:
1. Our minds have a tendency to focus on things that are bad to try and eliminate the "badness", so it helps to create a “turning inward” of your attention, and...
2. If you want to leave the cell you are in, looking out the window at what’s going on outside will likely not help. All you can really do by looking out the window is learn to enjoy the view and be comfortable, content, blissful in your cell, but if you want to be outside the cell then you have to stop looking out the window and enjoying the view and start looking inside the cell to find a means of escape.
How would you do this if the way out was not immediately obvious?
You would start looking at how the cell is constructed, where are the places I can start to take it apart or open it up? What are the tools I can use to tunnel through the wall? What are the walls really made of? If the walls are really just a construct of my mind how can I stop minding them into being, or how can I get through them in a way I can come and go as I please?
This is the essence or purpose of meditation. Because each person's cell is unique to their own mind, the tools used to get free are going to need to be appropriate for them. Or rather you can think of it as grouping tools into general classifications. What particular classification of tools are right for you? Once you find the right classification of tools you need to learn how to adapt those tools for your unique needs.
These various classifications of tools are the various schools of spiritual practice. They are all of equal merit if they get you looking inside the cell for means of escape, but they are not all of equal merit for you specifically. This is why it can be useful for enlightened ones or even seekers within a particular tradition to transmit that their method is the best....because it is actually true. From the seeker, saying this is the best method when they have found the right one for themselves, they are only saying what is absolutely true for them, and possibly for you if you are drawn to them. Coming from the enlightened teacher you have to understand that they are talking for their students sake, because a man digging many shallow wells may not reach the water hidden deep underground.
To the core point of your inquiry: Ego is neither good nor bad, it is a part of the greater whole. You will never get rid of “that bastard”. You can become comfortable with it...you can see it for its true nature, how it is just a part of the continuous whole, and how it is not separated from anyone else’s ego...but while you live in this body/mind it will not disappear, it will only become a smaller part of your greater perspective.
Think of it like this: Your skin cannot look at your skin and understand it's nature, but your mind can look at your skin and "understand its nature, it's makeup, and it's purpose, how it functions and interacts with the other parts of your body". It is true that your eyes are looking at your skin, i.e. one part of the body is looking at the other, but it is your mind that fits it all together and understands it, sees it. Your skin is your body, your eyes are your body, your mind is the point of larger perspective.
Now to your mind. Ego IS your mind and mind IS your ego. You can look at your mind/ego with your mind but you can never "understand its nature, it's makeup, and it's purpose, how it functions and interacts with the other parts of your mind/body". For this you need a larger perspective.
And this is where “the Perfection coming through the back door” comes into play.
“While looking out the front window, I can feel the perfection coming through the back door (assuming you know what I mean).”
The back door is the place where you have made a tunnel out of your cell, now you just need to go out and look back in from the “Perfection” there. Since the tunnel is a back door for you…walk backward into it….move yourself backward through the backdoor into that perfection while facing forward and looking back into your mind and you will have done the thing. There is nothing more than this. When you can see your mind from the perspective of this perfection, or silent, still, endless, purity, you have achieved the thing. Now walk back into the cell….or go back into your mind and ego but carry this stillness, this perfection with you…look at everything from this vantage point from now on and wherever you alight your attention you will see the true nature… "understand its nature, it's makeup, and it's purpose, how it functions and interacts with the other parts of your mind/body". You will see the continuity of your mind and body with the continuity of all the other minds and bodies. You will see the means of the continuity, the oneness. A continuity you know is there already much as you know the neighborhood you live in is a continual flow of land to the next neighborhood…you have seen maps drawn by other people showing the area, and you have driven from one place to another…but now you will be at a higher vantage point, on a mountain looking down at the view directly. You will see it for yourself.
Back into your backdoor…let your mind go…let go of the attachments, judgments, assessments, opinions, and back into that backdoor and look without these things, or rather with objectivity at your own mind…look at both the world within and the world without from the perspective of the “perfection” (not in your imagination but in reality, meaning don't look back at youself from how you would imagine that perfection would see you...drop into and be that perfection...it is you already, just drop back into and change your vantage point from here to there) and you will see clearly how it all fits together. Your ego will be affected, but it while not disappear while you live and breathe on this earth. It will however, be placed in its proper perspective.
But don’t take my word for it, cause it’s just a map of the area, it’s better for you to go to a better vantage point and see the terrain for yourself.
A final note for today…”seeking truth desperately” is a good thing up to a point…but that "evil ego" of yours can use that desperate seeking against you at that crucial phase where you have found the still perfection but have not entered it…that still silent perfection that seems outside of your mind is the vantage point from which you can see the truth…but the truth is not some mystical nirvana like experience that your ego may have built it up to be…it is the most ordinary simple thing…in the very last phases, when you have found that still perfection but have not entered into it, the desperate searching for some great mystical awakening can be the last obstacle to enlightenment. The thing is right near you…it always was.
Please make note that the words I use in a given response are tailored to fit the mind of the person asking from within their own thought paradigm…while you will find that I am really saying the same thing to everyone, please understand that if the words don’t seem right to you it is because I was talking to a specific mindset at a specific point in their self-awareness. I encourage you to make your own inquiry as you feel drawn to do it.
|
|
|
Post by tathagata on Aug 19, 2011 18:57:12 GMT -5
Max I will respond to your post this evening.
|
|
|
Post by popee on Aug 19, 2011 19:37:17 GMT -5
Thank you tathagata for that comprehensive post I'm going to let it percolate for a few days before replying
|
|
|
Post by tathagata on Aug 20, 2011 5:36:58 GMT -5
For Maxdprophet,
Are you happy?...do you really want enlightenment, or more happiness. Generally speaking, as far as the universe is concerned both are of equal merit. None better or of more value than the other. The difference in merit is only for the individual and what they want.
There are basically three kinds of "seekers" out there in the world today.
1. Those that are looking at their minds to learn how to use it as a tool to create an environment of wealth love and abundance for themselves. These are all "The Secret" and "Law of Attraction" people.
2. Spiritual seekers that are looking at their minds to uncover bliss, nirvana, happiness, and a feeling of oneness (which is really just a desire to escape their loneliness and be happier).
3. Those that are looking inward for ultimate truth, ultimate self realization, ultimate enlightenment, and that want to get at it at any cost...happiness...bliss...etc...are all secondary to this seeker...they want truth, or enlightenment much like a scientist wants truth, they want to get to the root of things, the only difference is that they are looking inward for that truth.
Now here is a controversial part...all three are of equal merit in the grand scheme of things...they are all of equal value really....and they are all very closely related to each other. All of them without exception are on a path of inward self-discovery of equal value. You might say they are all on different places of the same circular path. They are all on the same path but because it is a circle, no one is farther along the path than the other, just in different places. None is in a higher state of being or searching than the others, you are all searching, and you are all looking inward and becoming more aware of yourself in your search.
Why am I saying this, because its useful for you to make an honest judgment-free appraisal of what you really want, not what other people have told you that you should want, because whatever it is that you really want you can have it, as long as you know what it is.
Jed McKenna was accurate when he said most of western Buddhism is really just happyism, but what he didn’t say was that this was alright. Most people don't really want the ultimate truth of reality, they just want to be happy and be in control of their own happy making. Most enlightened people recognize this. It's why so much emphasis is placed on unattachment and compassion. Unattachment does not lead to enlightenment, neither does compassion...or rather they will lead you to enlightenment but in no more effective or preferable of a way than staring at a vase in the right way. Unattachment WILL remove suffering though, and compassion, true deep abiding compassion, will lead you to the highest levels of bliss. That is part of the inside secret of enlightened people, they know that most people don’t really want the experience of ultimate reality, they really just want more happiness and that this has just as much value as ultimate reality, and another secret is that being compassionate is paradoxically the most wonderfully selfish thing you can do, because feeling compassion and commiting acts of true, abiding, selfless compassion creates the most sustainably blissful states you can achieve as a human being without experiencing the little death of self that is needed for enlightenment. Illusion isn't bad, being a slave to a bad or painful illusion is. And this is coming from a guy who was always the third type of seeker...I was literally willing to die, to surrender myself completely unto death to get to my true nature, but having gotten there I will tell you that as far as the universe is concerned, awareness of ultimate reality is no more valuable than just being happy. Being happy outside the prison cell is no better than being happy inside the prison cell, happiness for a Buddha is the same happiness of any other person....happiness is happiness.
Here is another controversial statement: Every Person is just as close to manifesting wealth, as they are experiencing nirvana, as they are changing their perspective to ultimate reality, and you can achieve all three by roughly the same means. Turn inward, unravel what is there using non-judgmental self-observation in an ever deepening way like peeling away the layers of an onion, and replace it with what you want. So you can divide it into two categories...the what’s and the how’s...the "what" you need to do does not change no matter what the seeker is actually seeking...1. turn your attention inward, 2. unravel what is there that is creating the unwanted condition or lack of a wanted condition, and 3. replace it with what you want....those "what’s" don’t change, but the hows...the application...the means of doing those three things are your own individual process based on what you really want, and who you are right now.
So back to what I believe to be your two core questions Max:
1. Is there more peace, more light, more wakefulness, is there "more"? The short answer is yes. But the real question is do you need "more" to be happy, or are you happy right now….?
The longer answer is: as long as you are looking-at/creating your life from the limited perspective of your mind/ego, there will always be "more" out there, because you are a creator and a determinator of self. Whatever bliss your mind/ego creates for yourself will eventually become something you are used to, and eventually you will imagine a greater level of bliss and happiness. This may seem like a bad thing, or a risk, because most people want happiness that lasts and will always be satisfying, and they think that only by enlightenment or a heaven can they have this, but the reality is that you can achieve a kind of continual chain of ever increasing successes and triumphs and additional layers of happiness in your physical, intellectual, and spiritual life. You can build your life to a point of sustained ecstasy without ever reaching enlightenment or experiencing ultimate reality or seeing your true nature. You will live an inspiring life, and you will be happy, and you will make others around you happy, and there will be nothing wrong with this, nothing that you "should have done differently". You may not be a Buddha, but you will be a very happy you.
2. Your second Question seems to me to be about fear. Will you lose your relationships, way of life etc.?
This one is more complicated and is the reason why it’s very important to know if you really just want to be happier or if you want enlightenment. You kinda need to split this one into two parts… 1. Will the pursuit of enlightenment cost me my relationships, and 2. will being enlightened cost me my relationships?
I can relate my own experience but I cannot guarantee it will be yours.
On the latter half of the question I asked my wife while I was writing this, “Hun do you feel like our relationship is any better or any worse now than it was six months ago or three months ago?” (The thing only happened for me about two months ago) her answer was “I don’t know, I don’t even remember last week”. I took this to mean there was no noticeable difference in the overall quality of our life together ;-). I then asked her “Do you think I am treating you better or worse lately, am I being a better husband now or before?” and without hesitation she said yes that I was treating her better. One thing that has changed is that now when I do something, I completely do it without reservation or judgment or desire for an advantageous outcome, I just do it. So when I interact with my wife, which I am not doing any more often or less often than I used to, I interact in a way that she has the complete attention of my mind body. I am not doing, planning, or thinking about anything else other than her while I am talking to, listening to, or looking at her, and I am much more compassionate with her on every level in every situation. Point being, unless she chooses to leave at some point for some reason of her own, I don’t see enlightenment negatively impacting our relationship, not so far anyway.
On the first half of the question: Will the PURSUIT of enlightenment cause you to lose your relationships. Well if you decide to go into a monastery and sit and meditate for the next several years probably yes. If you try and get your partner to change their perspectives and priorities like a fanatic every time your perspectives and priorities change during this up and down ride then the answer is probably yes. The answer really lays in your method of practice, and your willingness to let your partner evolve how they want to at their own pace.
Here I hope my own experience can give some guidance. In my early twenties I was playing at being an artist (painting murals), I was also reading and learning about Zen and other eastern philosophies and practices. Someone asked me one day if I was an artist. I thought about it for a minute and realized that in certain moments I was an artist…In those few moments where the brush was moving across the medium and I was in a pure Zen moment of pure doing I was an artist, the rest of the day I was not, because nothing was being created or flowing in the moment. I said this without thinking much, I just blurted it out. But being young and believing my own hype I let that one offhand comment guide the next twenty years or so of my life. I resolved that I wanted to be an artist in every breath, and at the time I thought that meant being a Buddha. So I started to study intensely…first I looked for and studied about as many “Buddha’s” as I thought I could find. I studied Gurdjief, Paramhamsa Yogananda, Guatama, Krishnamurti, DT Suzuki, Shri Aurobindo, Osho, Bodhidharma…the Vedas, the Buddhist sutras, etc…so many…One thing became clear to me early on, and that was that all these teachers, and their writings and methods, did not seem to be coming from a place that would work in western culture. Right or wrong that was my perception. So I had a choice, I was either going to go to a monastery or ashram and drop out of society until I became a Buddha, or I was going to find a different way. I decided on the monastic life option, sold my stuff, quit my job, and was ready to go, but a girl talked me out of it lol. So now stuck I decided that I was going to be the first Buddha to achieve it living and working within a normal American life….grandiose thinking but I was young and didn’t know much about what was out there. I decided I would find a way while living an utterly normal life. I would get a job where I wore a suite every day, I would have a family etc. And by being the first I could blaze a new path for others to follow in this culture and time….again, young and grandiose.
So I looked to find a way that I could achieve Buddhahood without dropping out of society, without losing a business job, and without losing relationships. I also had a predilection for only wanting the techniques and not the philosophies or doctrines of various schools or teachers. So I eventually found Osho’s Book of Secrets, which is really only a list of 112 techniques of realizing enlightenment called the Vigyan Bharav Tantra….written 5000 years ago it is the oldest known religious discourse, but it is really not a religious discourse or a philosophical discourse, it is just a list of meditation techniques…as I studied it more and more I realized that within those 112 techniques and the variations of each, there was a method that fit every activity of the day that could fit any personality type in any culture. There were techniques in there that had spawned entire religions and there were techniques that had been the foundation of entire spiritual and mystical traditions. I looked and I did not find a single school or lineage of spiritual thought where the core part of their practice was not one or more of the techniques in the 112 sutras. It fit the bill for me in a few ways, it was not doctrine, it was only techniques, and the breadth of the techniques could be used in any activity….there were techniques you could use while you were driving a car, having a conversation, going to sleep, waking up, using the bathroom, reading, breathing, eating, listening to music, watching TV, making love, walking, exercising, playing sports, playing with the baby….every activity in a normal western life could be made into a meditation...so that’s what I did…I lived a secret double life…on the outside I was watching TV with my wife, on the inside I was meditating. I got to the point where almost every waking hour I was in a meditation practice no matter what activity I was doing.
It was very lonely at times for the first few years, this secret inner life lived amongst my peers and family, but eventually the loneliness went away and I used those techniques to march right up to the gates of Buddhahood while living a western life and keeping my relationships…I did not become enlightened until I gave up on becoming a Buddha in despair and hopelessness but that is another story for a later post. So at least to this point neither the quest for enlightenment or the being of the thing has cost me my relationship with my wife. In all fairness I did have the EXACT same fears for a long time though, and those fears pointlessly held me back without question.
If you choose a method of seeking that does not take you away from your family, you will not lose your family because of your search. If you are allowing of your family to be their own self and follow their own path then you will not lose your family as a result of your search, and unless being more attentive, more selfless, and more compassionate drives your family away enlightenment itself is not going to cost you your family.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2011 6:40:17 GMT -5
wow! like popee, thanks for your targeted, comprehensive reply.
Are you happy?
yes and no. Yes, it’s really an embarrassment of riches if anything -- relationships, surroundings. Not wealthy, but in good health (for the moment) and in a beautiful place, making a living in the ‘helping field’. No, a nagging sense that there is ‘more’ -- not in a material sense but in an understanding sense.
Of those 3 categories of seeker, I can say, with confidence, the last. However Truth with a capital T is not something that has been in my lexicon. Steeped in ‘don’t know’ mind I suppose. Outside of logic, the Truth concept is just that, and accepted as a target but whether actually attainable or unattainable, don’t know. Lots of folks say it’s attainable, and speak with a confidence of having realized it, and that is extremely attractive and inspiring, but I remain skeptical and figure the proof will be in the pudding, even if there is no Pudding, or proof. Your description of the scientist fits. But I don’t think of the scientist as uncovering the truth as much as uncovering the unTruth. That’s what I’m after -- getting rid of the obfuscation, the misconceptions, the assumptions. Get rid of all of that and let the chips fall where they may. But in number 3, you use “at any cost” and that is fairly common among the realizers and when i think of losing some of my relationships, i just can’t go there. So thank you for spending time on the relationship thing further down. That’s what I suspected too -- that it can be done without jeopardizing relationships -- but it’s kind of rare in the literature (at least my perception of my incomplete reading). I see my relationships as welcome crucibles where i can see my own conditioning and false beliefs manifest. (thank god for having forgiving partner and children!)
what next? that was useful -- i had to honestly look at whether i could be in category 2. but i don't think so -- i don't care about that stuff at least, though it sounds fun. category 1, no way.
thanks again!
|
|
|
Post by popee on Aug 20, 2011 11:00:04 GMT -5
- A re-writing of this earlier post
Giving full attention. To whatever you're doing, as the events of life stream by.
Maybe its what they call non-doing. Yesterday I had to do some shovel work. The blade in and out of the earth, work being performed, sweat oozing from my pores. But I focused only on the movement, there was little to no thoughts disturbing the scene. No thinking about an earlier situation, nor planning for the next. Just doing. It truly was effortless, not the work, but the experience. Its amazing how fluid the strokes were, the utter perfection of a man digging a trench.
I am not special, but I have a talent for keeping my mind still. That state actually feels more natural than the hectic hub bub of thinking about stuff. Its fascinating how many thoughts that are just complete nonsense. Imaginary drivel that can either please you, or make you feel bad. Its funny how one thought can lead to another, then another, until you've built some huge contrived story, none of which is real. And then in an instant, poof its gone. What remains when they fall? Stillness. Its almost like its all there really is.
|
|
|
Post by tathagata on Aug 21, 2011 14:22:32 GMT -5
@ Max....for the next day play the Perfection game. Tie a string on your finger to remind yourself to play all day, your mind will naturally become distracted from the game, this is fine, just wear a little string on your finger to gently remind yourself to come back to the game. Often people approach this kind of pursuit with too much negitivity and self criticism, it should be like a game...like a play game played with playfulness for fun. Watch a child play a game sometime...watch how they are totally engaged, deadly serious, and having fun at the same time, this is how your "inward" practice should be....
So here is the perfection game...it is remarkably simple: For the next day until you go to bed tomorrow night keep saying over and over and over to yourself, "I Am Perfect"...let it replace almost all other thoughts...have the thought repeating even when you are playing with your child...once you start to really get the feeling that you are perfect, start the process of thinking that everything/everyone/everysituation you encounter is perfect. Think to yourself: this pillow is perfect...this leaf is perfect, this mess on the floor that little johny made is perfect, this song is perfect, I am perfect, my spouse is perfect, my life is perfect, my thoughts are perfect.....observe everthing and think to yourself that it is perfect, that even it's flaws in the grand scheme of things make it perfect....everthing is perfect....thats your game for the next day....play it earnestly but with fun.
We will send you some questions to answer after your day of perfection, and we'll offer you some suggestions on some living breathing moving meditations you can use in everyday life that will fit your life and personality.
Be Perfection....
|
|
|
Post by tathagata on Aug 21, 2011 14:28:29 GMT -5
@ popee
Keep doing exactly what you are doing. Surrender everything inside you, but observe the surrendering. Observe each part of you while it is being surrendered away, never stop observing while surrendering and you will eventually be looking at yourself from within your ultimate self, because everything else will have been surrendered away.
All methods are beautiful, but this is a particularly beautiful method.
|
|
|
Post by ivory on Aug 22, 2011 2:51:37 GMT -5
Whoa! Wait a cotton pickin' minute here (as Enigma would say).
"ultimate truth, ultimate self realization, ultimate enlightenment"
LOL. Is it just me or does something smell funny?
Thagatha, I can't help wonder if you wandered off that beautiful path that you mention to smell the roses and got lost.
Forgive me if I'm jumping to conclusions. But if "you" have realized the ULTIMATE truth, ULTIMATE self realization, and ULTIMATE enlightenment the "you" then you will not be offended by my skepticism.
|
|
|
Post by tathagata on Aug 22, 2011 6:01:31 GMT -5
lol no offense taken ivory, but a little chuckle was given ;-)
Somewhere up there I think I left a kind of disclosure paragraph saying basically beware reading this....becuase certain words are being used to speak to specific person who is in a specific thought paradigm, and that those same words might be wholly inappropriate for you in your thought paradigm.
Phrases like ultimate truth, ultimate reality etc...are just semantic indicators for having found and entered your true self, and having done so seeing things from a perspective with absolute clarity. If I had been answering a question or addressing a concern from you I may have chosen different words expressed in a different way....that doesn't mean one way is right and the other words are wrong, it just means that they are not right for your starting place in your thought paradigm, or that those words will not take you in the right direction.
On another topic....I have absolutely wandered off the path and got lost lol, sometimes I just spontaneously find myself dancing away. I'm certainly not on any path anymore, nor am I searching for anything anymore lol...haha, another way to say it is that I died and was reborn as exactly the same person, just with a lil bigger view. I still really like turkey sausage fried in butter. It makes me VERY VERY HAPPY....sometimes I dance and eat turkey sausage fried in butter and sing about dancing and singing and eating turkey sausage fried in butter all at the same time...yeah...those are some good times lol
Enlightenment is really nothing more than an increasing of your perspective, or vantage point to a place where there is no more increasing of the vantage point...to the place where vantage points ends.
Depending on who I'm talking to and what they need I will speak from a different place in my being and awareness. To one person in one moment the I that is talking when I say I might be the ultimate reality...pure consciousness etc....to another the I might be this identity that struggled so hard for enlightenment, and to another the I that is speaking might be the totality of interwoven mind/thought/observation that is the weave of all of us in an unbroken whole.
There is a lot of conversation in this forum about whether the mind and thoughts and the illusion of self or the activity of self etc stop permanently at some point...the answer is no it does not, in this life you will never be at a point where you will never think thoughts again....enlightenment is not a cessation of yourself and your identity, rather it is a transcendence of the awareness of your self and your identity. Your identity and thoughts do not end, they just fall into their proper perspective as a part of the greater whole that is you.
People think that if you are enlightened you end...not true, you just become directly aware of the whole-you in a way that you know from direct experience that there is nothing more to add or remove or search for.
For some people it's best to use words like ultimate truth to describe this if their search has been described as the search for truth...if another says their search has been for enlightenment then ultimate enlightenment might be the right words for them....could be ultimate peace, ultimate reality, ultimate oneness etc..The word ultimate in this situation is not a descriptor saying look at me or my specialness, I frankly don't have anything to sell and would not be any more or less happy for having sold it....Ultimate in this case just means the end of the searching for that which will give you what you've been searching for. It is the realization of something through direct experience that ends the search for greater realization.
What is it you're looking for? Do you have any questions for me?
|
|
|
Post by popee on Aug 22, 2011 7:44:00 GMT -5
You speak of surrender as if it were an amputation; little by little until all untruths have been whittled away. But I suspect the deepest darkest bits might try and hide from that surgeon. I think I would prefer the guillotine.
I've lost bits, but failed to note their departure. One day I look, and it is gone; "hey, where'd that go?", I'd say, not missing it in the slightest.
Funny thing, my wife used to call my anger "Andrews fits" - still does for that matter. Thing is, there are no more fits. Finally I asked here, "when's the last time you remember me getting angry?" she paused, then said, "I know, I miss it". I think what she misses is the "aliveness" of the drama. I won't play along anymore. I'm too calm for her I suspect. But I can see my calmness is infectious, she is calmer too.
|
|