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Post by tathagata on Aug 24, 2011 2:51:58 GMT -5
Truth is an ultimate cheeseburger. Or maybe that's the ultimate truth. I forget. And unfortunately, I don't have my notes on me. haha....you should move to key west and found a religion based on that lmao |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2011 7:15:26 GMT -5
alright i'll be working on my travis bickle today
you lookin at me?
___ lookin at ____? (sorry wrong thread)
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Post by popee on Aug 24, 2011 11:13:51 GMT -5
yes, i'll try
giving up though
thanks
cya
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2011 8:47:06 GMT -5
okay now I’m onto embodying fear. hope it’s more fun than embodying anger. kind of scared.
but some quick observations on anger:
it was hard. hard in the sense that it involved lots of constriction. that wasn’t fun. it felt unhealthy and i got kind of peeved at myself for doing it :-)
i noticed that it took effort to hold the anger. this is unusual because usually i feel gripped by anger when it happens -- in day to day life when anger arises it doesn’t seem hard to hold onto. the difference between this experiment and those days, methinks, has to do with the lack of object/story that fuels the anger. sometimes i tried to project the anger onto something to see if i could keep it going. but i guess my heart wasn’t into it.
in general i think my personality has a low threshold for when to give up on anger. i tend to be a ‘peace-maker’ type so this experiment was kind of a challenge. no travis bickle or even bob deniro here.
okay onto fear. cowardly lion.
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Post by tathagata on Aug 25, 2011 13:29:55 GMT -5
@ Max
Make it a focus to observe the anger...or now fear while you are having it....it can be easy to be focused on the effort of creating and keeping the emotion going...or to be focused on the feeling itself...try to observe yourself having the fear while creating it....also remember that what ever you are learning about yourself you are learning about other people too....when you say emotions like anger normally grip you instead of you trying to create it this is Becuase emotions are both physically and phsycologically adictive ...they release chemicals called neuro peptides into your brain...the more you feel a emotion the more your brain will create neuro peptide receptors that are addicted to them...you will then conciously or subconciously create recurring situation that release the particular chemical signitures that your brain is addicted to.
When you say you normally let anger go quickly when it grips you you are really saying my addiction to anger isn't that strong, a little SIP of anger fills the need, so I don,t cling to situations that fill that addiction very much...which is good to a point...a little addiction that doesn't inpact your quality of life that much is better than an addiction that consumes you...some people are consumed by the addiction to anger.
A little tweek to your practice with this...try to be a method actor with this...if your not familier with method acting Wiki it...its really just getting absorbed in the role so much that you become it from the inside out...so try and make the emotion get really attached to everything in front of you....just don't act on it...be unjudgemental in what you focus your anger on...Don,t just be angry...be angry at something...more specifically be angry at everything...be angry at your spouse and what they are doing indescriminently ...the people driving around you...coworkers...everything....but at the same time pay VERY close attention to the anger and its attaching to things...also be very careful to keep the emotion secret from what you are being angry at so the excercise doesn't hurt anyone...I.e. be furious with you spouse and what they are doing while observing yourself as if outside yourself...but don't show any signs of it.
If you learn to recognize the nature of addiction you can not only overcome it, you can help others do so also...frankly all of life is a druglike addiction that provides wonderful high,s but comes with great suffering...an enlightened person who is dead is someone who broke the addiction...an enlightened person who is alive is someone who has permanently broken the addiction to life but who has decided to become a counsler in addiction treatment...all spiritual practices are really designed to do two things...sober you up enough from the high of life that you are actually coherent enough to think about getting high and whether its good for you or not, and to understand the affect of the drug on you...lots of people get sober for awhile, we call this waking up...or getting to their true nature etc in our little club...but then they go right back to using again LOL....its the nature of addiction...once you realize its bad...which is what most spiritual people realize, this doesn't mean your really ready to quit...it just means that you want to...permanent enlightenment happens for most people just like breaking the chain of addiction happens for addicts....you have to hit rock bottom and then give it up and be sober from then on out...until then you will bounce back and forth between bouts of sobriety, where you think you kicked the habit and are completely convinced you have, ie. You are sober right now and completely convinced your permanently enlightened and done with the addiction, and bouts where you slip back into maya and fall off the wagon...but when you REALLY hit rock bottom, you know. Rock bottom is a very recognizable feeling, its not just simply being sick of something...its rock bottom...
Stay with anger for a bit longer and go a little deeper by really observing it and yourself while letting it attach to EVERYTHING...
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Post by unveilable on Aug 26, 2011 14:31:38 GMT -5
'Rock bottom is a very recognizable feeling, its not just simply being sick of something...its rock bottom...'
I want to hit rock bottom but I just dont see how observing the observer is going to get me there.
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Post by tathagata on Aug 26, 2011 18:48:01 GMT -5
Observing the observer is you looking at yourself in a sober state...have you ever noticed that when your drunk, I mean really drunk, you want to drink more and more...the last thing in the world that you want to do is quit drinking...you don't even recognize the self destructive nature of anything that you do...its why people drink and drive, while your drunk it seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do LOL.
No one ever hits rock bottom while they are high or drunk...they eventually hit rock bottom while they are in a sober spell...and even when they are sober and see they have to quit drinking and have come to really hate drinking they often go back and drink again...all the while hating themselves for doing it...its the same with Maya and enlightenment...drunkenness and soberness...eventually you hit rock bottom though and give it up for good...observing the observer moves you to the awakened state of seeing your whole true nature...from there you are sober enough to work out that you have suffered enough and never want to do it again...you surrender your addiction and remained enlightened from then on out...the penny drops...think of observing the observer like its your Maya detox program.
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Post by tathagata on Aug 26, 2011 19:00:36 GMT -5
The reason my first sentence to you was "you are so close but may never get there"...was Becuase in your post I recognized the same hopesless and despair that I felt over continously being sober or awakened to my true self, and then going back into Maya and attachment and desire even when i could see very clearly that it was wrong and self destructive...I finally hit rock bottom when I hit the dead end of hopelessness and despair that i would never beat this thing...that i would always be a prisoner...I hit rock bottom...I recognized those feelings building in your post...I said you are so close but may never get there Becuase even though you were in despair you still might not hit rock bottom and give up the search...it was the last step for me...the last part of my drunkeness that was left was the search for enlightenment and freedom from myself...when i hit rock bottom I gave up that search and in so doing achieved the freedom I had given up on...I remember the exact moment like it was seconds ago...I said to myself "I will never achieve the freedom and permanent enlightenment I wanted and it was all meaningless trying...so I give up...I don't want this life anymore...I am ready to die now and have nothing left to live for...so I gave up my entire self and slipped into pure stillness...when i got there I saw everything and the absurdity and simplicity of it all...
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Post by tathagata on Aug 26, 2011 19:13:47 GMT -5
I'm having max experiment with attaching variuos emotions to everything he comes into contact with Becuase i want him to see that it is not things that are making him happy or angry or afraid...anger and fear and joy are there all on there own and THEN they find something to attach to...it is the same way with attachment and hunger and searching...my hunger or my attachment or my searching in the end was completely attached to enlightenment and freedom...but they were secondary...my searching hunger was the source...enlightenment was what I attached it to...my hunger as is every one else's is so powerful its not hunger, its addiction...you may attach it to anything...could be drugs but drugs don't make you addicted...addiction makes you addicted...could be enlightenment but lack of enlightenement is not what makes you go back into Maya and attachment once you have experienced being sober, its the addiction and your choice to attach your addiction to enlightenment SEARCHING that does...addiction itself is the chase of suffering, not the means or the shape your addiction takes...hit rock bottom and be done with the addiction itself and you will be done with your particular drug of choice too....for the very Commited seeker the searching itself becomes the drug of choice...and it will not go away until you stop the addiction to addiction LOL...until you hit rock bottom and let it go.
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Post by tathagata on Aug 26, 2011 19:21:50 GMT -5
Being sober...or observing the observer...is not going to make you hit rock bottom...but it will create an enviornment where its possible.
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Post by tathagata on Aug 26, 2011 19:27:41 GMT -5
No one ever hit rock bottom and gave up on addiction while they were high LOL....observing the observer is just one of the means to stay sober enough to hit rock bottom....rock bottom...or the penny dropping...does not happen without you being able to see yourself without dilusion and with sober clarity.
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Post by unveilable on Aug 27, 2011 8:47:04 GMT -5
I see thanks. I would like to clarify a few things if I could. When you are referencing 'observe the observer' are you talking about observing the witness? As in observe the one that forms conclusions? Or are you saying observe the observer as it observes the one who forms conclusions? Getting confused about the number of possibilities.
Somewhat related is this next question. I find it very difficult to observe my thoughts. I suspect that the obstruction is that I am operating under the 'thoughts are bad distractions and you must ignore them' belief. So am I holding holding myself back with this problem?
When I try to observe thoughts I go straight to silent mind. At that point sound becomes more enlivened, quietness is felt and it is obvious that there is some sort of 'stepping back' feeling or a more all encompassing awareness of stimuli. Its been very easy to go to and abide in after this last break from Maya but is not permanent. Ive noticed that it seems to have an energetic frequency that resonates with ambient sounds like buzzing from fans. Isnt this essentially what you are referencing when you say observe the observer? Its a pretty distinctive state or way of interfacing so I am assuming this is the productive or useful way of being.
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Post by unveilable on Aug 27, 2011 8:59:10 GMT -5
Actually in my heart of hearts what Ive always wanted is total freedom from my preconceived notions so I think I need the ability to see my thoughts. But like I said above it is so difficult because I go straight to silence. Its like living a double life and the observant portion stays fairly separate from the dirty bastard I want expunged. Ah HA! Its my resistance to the dirty bastard isnt it? This is what is at the root of my 'unaware' moments. Am I understanding it correctly?
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Post by tathagata on Aug 27, 2011 17:00:38 GMT -5
To your second question unveilable,
What happens is that most of the time you are thinking unconciously, like your thoughts are on autoplilot....when you observe yourself thinking you stop the automatic forward motion of your unconcious thinking by becoming concious of thinking...unconcious thinking by nature cannot continue when you become concious of it...so the thoughts become silent...if you want to at this point you can pick a subject you have questions about and "conciously think about it it" I.e. think about it while observing your thoughts, observing your thoughts gives you the chance to stop the autopilot and think while being more aware if you choose to contemplate something you want to understand better without preconcieved notions clouding the picture...its away of moving out of drunkeness....and into a state of thinking that offers more clarity...but more importantly it stops the autopilot of unconcious action...you can do it with other things too...try eating sometime but observing the eating while you are eating instead of just putting the food in chewing and swallowing unconciously....this is the essence of kung fu...literally translated kung fu just means totally doing something conciously....LOL...if you are cooking a meal or thinking thoughts but doing them very conciously you are doing kung fu Lmao...bet you didn't think you were getting a kung Fu lesson today huh ;-)
To your first question....Observing yourself thinking, or doing any physical activity for that matter, simply elimanates you doing them unconciously...this is important Becuase by doing this you are moving away from unconcious or drunkness doing...and in turn this is important Becuase it makes it possible for you to realize your True nature and to be liberated from bondage....no one can see themselves how they really are while they are drunk...the schools of practice that are trying to get you to focus on the body and become body aware are just trying to get you to stop doing things unconciously, and moving your body conciously is an easy place to start, it also brings you into this moment which is useful...the next time you reach for a glass, reach for it while conciously making the effort to move, and be aware of the movement while you are doing it...do the same thing while you are walking down the street next time...one side effect you will notice when you are moving conciously is that you become more graceful and fluid without even trying...this is Becuase all the unecessary wasted motion that you were doing when you were moving UNconciously goes away when you are moving conciously. If thoughts are hard try observing yourself moving while conciously making the effort to move...the same thing happens with concious thinking....conciously thinking is a more subtle activity and can be a little harder to do than concious body moving, but it is the same thing with the same result...the wasted motions go away, you come into the moment, waste goes away, and you get sober enough from maya that reality can happen...
So it is natural that when you observe the thinking that the wasted thinking stops...but you can also choose to think on a specific matter while observing yourself doing it and conciously moving into the thoughts....you will find you have a very graceful thinking this way...it will actually feel graceful and light...almost enlightened LOL...if you can add Wu Wei to your Kung Fu doing and thinking you will be living in a very concious way, and you will go a long way to liberating yourself from Maya....Wu Wei means continuasly flowing without attachmnent....Wu Wei Kung Fu means totally doing everything from one breath to the next, and flowing unattachedly from one total concious doing to the next...
BUT
This is still not experiencing your true nature, the true nature of all things, the formless eternal silent stillness of conciousnessness that is beyond mind and doing, but within it at the same time....and this is where observing the observer or concious doer comes into play...when you are observing yourself thinking or moving your body, it is you mind observing and being aware of itself doing or thinking...to move beyond mind you have to observe the observer of the thinking and doing...its a trick really...try to keep peeling back the layers of that which is doing and moving by being aware of it and the being aware itself...you can say there are three levels to doing...MOVING (the body or physical world), THINKING ( having thoughts in word dialogue form, picture form, or emotional form) , and MINDING...(all"being",(being the observer, being silent, being concious, being happy, being sad, being smart, being dum, being free, being in bondage) , and all thoughts, all physical movement of your body, even all of physical reality are you observing/creating/MINDING)...this is what is meant when you say "there is no mind but mind"....the mind observes either conciously or unconciuosly and the act of observation is the defining of and the creating or your reality...the mind is the observer and is the source of all movement, thoughts, and the reality of Maya....but you are not your mind any more than you are your body...if like in those movies you switched bodies with someone, you would still be you just in a differant body...so on one level you are not your body, you are your mind and personal identity....on a larger level the same holds true for your mind...there is a part of you that is you no matter what mind its using LOL...it is the permanent eternal none minding none moving formless still silent self LOL......come out of unconcious doing by observing yourself moving doing thinking and feeling...but then come out of your unconcious minding/observing by observing the observer...by try to observe yourself from outside your mind you enter your true nature and see that you were always formless boundless and eternal...Becuase you have opened yourself to that which is beyond mind and movement and observing...observing, or minding is still a doing, a movement, observing is the most finite and subtle of all doings and movement, but it is still a doing and movement...if you can observe the observer you create a feedback loop that has a dead end at conciousness/stillness/formless/eternalness/silentness...there is a differance between being silent and still and silent/stillness...being silent and still is still being something...
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Post by tathagata on Aug 27, 2011 17:14:26 GMT -5
I see thanks. I would like to clarify a few things if I could. When you are referencing 'observe the observer' are you talking about observing the witness? As in observe the one that forms conclusions? Or are you saying observe the observer as it observes the one who forms conclusions? Getting confused about the number of possibilities. Somewhat related is this next question. I find it very difficult to observe my thoughts. I suspect that the obstruction is that I am operating under the 'thoughts are bad distractions and you must ignore them' belief. So am I holding holding myself back with this problem? When I try to observe thoughts I go straight to silent mind. At that point sound becomes more enlivened, quietness is felt and it is obvious that there is some sort of 'stepping back' feeling or a more all encompassing awareness of stimuli. Its been very easy to go to and abide in after this last break from Maya but is not permanent. Ive noticed that it seems to have an energetic frequency that resonates with ambient sounds like buzzing from fans. Isnt this essentially what you are referencing when you say observe the observer? Its a pretty distinctive state or way of interfacing so I am assuming this is the productive or useful way of being. In your last paragraph of this post you meantioned a stepping back feeling and more awareness of stimuli...when you are in the moment your awareness on every level deepens and expands...if you wanted to pursue it like some of the shaolin guys or the samurai you could do things that have an almost superhuman appearence to them LOL...but I cuation against this if you really want freedom... The sound or vibration you are tuning to is the sound of creation that people talk about when they talk about the aum sound...sit sometime and say a long drawn out auuuuuum over and over for at least 20-30 minutes and surrender yourself in the sound with an emphasis on the uuuu vowel...once you get deep into the auuuuuum sound you will recognize what you're hearing....it can be useful and fun and is another technique to maintain sobriety available to you. |
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