|
|
Post by angela on Aug 31, 2011 10:23:45 GMT -5
tathagata, you remind me of a guy who used to post here.  anyway. as to the seeker, self inqiury and so on. in my experience it's been pretty simple. my world was on fire, post-Jed, for about two years. for two years i burned and dug and scraped and played around inside of my head trying to get to the ground floor. eventually, that happened. the ground of being opened up - not just a recognition of no-self, but the recognition of What Remains - and then, from that point on..... playing around in my head has become just more b.s. to avoid what's really happening here. now, that has been the case now for 9 months. for 9 months, still, because of habit and whatever you want to call it, i keep up with the "spiritual ego" bull, as if it's going to offer me something. as a method of hiding, of avoiding what this really is, what i know to be true.... that slipping under the water is the only thing left, the only way to go.... further, as we may call it, although it couldn't possibly be further, it only ever ends up right here. anyway. in the end, as most teachers have told me, it's my spiritual ideas about how to live, how to deal with the angela character, that have me floating on top of the water. and they're so sneaky, they entrance and excite my imagination, they captivate and hold me hostage. i keep thinking that by more playing around inside of my character that i'm going to find the perfection that seems to hold court in my imagination. a woman said to me once: "everything that exists is in the way" and i didn't understand what she meant. until i did. don't let self inquiry be a prison, is my only advice. do it until it's done. and then once it's done.... let it be done. my truth is that it's done, clearly done, and cannot guide me anymore. the habit is to keep self-reflecting, to keep checking back to see how "i" am doing.... but it's b.s. and i know it. and so the inclination is wearing away like rock. i don't care how i'm doing anymore. so there. self inquiry got me here, but the real gut honesty is to admit that here is where i am, now that i am here (which, as we all know, isn't anywhere in particular, and isn't any further than where i started....).... but anyway. now that i am here, and i know i'm here..... i have to be honest and admit it. there's nothing else to gain from self inquiry but avoiding the obvious. avoiding THIS.... HERE.... love to you all. i've missed you. |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Aug 31, 2011 10:24:24 GMT -5
I get what you are saying and maybe it works, but what Im thinking is that choices still happen ...i.e.'this or that' and so ultimately what changes is the WAY in which 'this or that' is chosen. I would say that choosing becomes an experience of discernment, of intuition, of responsiveness to the situation. We cease to make choices based on rules about what we think we should be choosing. Again...we have to be clear here...there is no universal technique...for some types this is a perfect technique....for others no...I would not suggest this technique for you Andrew, at least not as you are today...it won't fit you Becuase generally speaking the judgment manifestation of ego isn't very strong in you. I agree there is no universal technique. If and when I recommend techniques and practices to people I respond to their energy, to their way of thinking, to their desires.....it all depends. |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Aug 31, 2011 10:25:52 GMT -5
I get what you are saying and maybe it works, but what Im thinking is that choices still happen ...i.e.'this or that' and so ultimately what changes is the WAY in which 'this or that' is chosen. I would say that choosing becomes an experience of discernment, of intuition, of responsiveness to the situation. We cease to make choices based on rules about what we think we should be choosing. I agree here Andrew...that's very perceptive and concice....this particular technique does not eliminate choice...but it helps with removing the subconcious dogma of good or bad the the ego often uses to influence choices...and in so doing you are more centered in youself...less swing from one place to another...the choice just is...you are not moved by it so much...you are creating less around the choice and are more in the middle...its almost like the ego needs food and you are not giving it the food of value judgment....for some people this technique can be useful Becuase value judgment is the staple food of the ego...so denying it this food is good...for others value judgment is not the staple food of the ego...so some other food should be denied it. Yes, I getcha. I can see that for some people the technique could be of value. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Aug 31, 2011 10:30:06 GMT -5
there are no shortcuts...effort is required until there is no more effort possible for you....until you cannot go on with anymore effort...then and only then is it time to go into effortlessness...if you do it in any other way the ego will keep comming back... love peace and hair grease suckers ;-)) There are many examples of awakening happening through insight rather than exhaustion. Did Niz fall off his gerbil wheel from exhaustion? |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Aug 31, 2011 10:30:10 GMT -5
I think the key word you said there is 'preference'. I still experience preferences but not really value judgments. Which reminds me of a conversation I had with someone the other day about the difference between 'discernment' and 'judgment'. The conclusion that was drawn was that the former is intuitive and the latter is 'of the mind'. Well, I don't think there's anything intuitive about discerning the difference between black and white. I agree, though, with the implication that there's nothing problematic about that discernment until a value judgment is made. Im not sure that the difference between black and white is discerned, though if it came to choosing black or white wallpaper....then discernment would come into play. What occurs to me is that when we value judge, what we are doing is believing that we SHOULD judge something a particular way. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2011 10:41:47 GMT -5
famous last words from Oscar Wilde:
"My wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death. One or the other of us has to go."
|
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Aug 31, 2011 11:13:45 GMT -5
famous last words from Oscar Wilde: "My wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death. One or the other of us has to go." So the wallpaper won? Hehe. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2011 11:25:26 GMT -5
nah it just continued to hang out
|
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Aug 31, 2011 11:27:48 GMT -5
famous last words from Oscar Wilde: "My wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death. One or the other of us has to go." ;D ;D ;D |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Aug 31, 2011 11:49:47 GMT -5
nah it just continued to hang out HA! ;D |
|
|
|
Post by tathagata on Aug 31, 2011 12:36:34 GMT -5
Andrew makes a good point about mastery of technique and effort...when I say great effort is needed I really mean consistant continued effort until the ego is exhuasted and give up in futility or hopelessness...when you are doing anew technique sometimes the Technique can take effort in the beggining until you master it...but once you get used to the Technique and have mastered it there is not much effort in doing the Technique...then effort becomes defined as consistancy....
A good example of this is the bowl gazing technique...in this technique you get a bowl and stare at it...but you do not allow your eyes to move to any specific part of the bowl...you do not look at the sides of the bowl in the rim or the inside or outside...you look at the entire bowl...you also don't let the bowl be out of focus...you look at the entire bowl with focused vision....in the beggining this technique can need an intensity of effort Becuase it may be hard for you to have focused vision on the entire object at once...you will either want to move the eyes and look at the parts...or or unfocused on the whole thing...learning or getting practiced at looking at the entire bowl in focus takes some effort...but with practice you gain mastery of the Technique and it becomes easy...but if this is a technique you choose you should put effort into doing it with consistancy.
A note on futility....recognizing and excepting futility is a technique too....the Technique is in the 112 techniques of the vigyan bhairav tantra....the name of the Technique is
"Be hopeless".....the implementaion of the Technique is to recognize the futility of EVERYTHING....this technique if practiced enough can become almost effortless to perform....but you should still put effort into consistantly applying it...in time the effort of consistantly applying it can become easy to...Becuase you have gotten used to it...you have mastered consistantly applying it....what should not happen is that you stop applying techniques...at least until it is really time to do so...you will know when it is time to do so Becuase you cannot continue...your ego gives up and you hit rock bottom...
On gerbils LOL...there is the mind and there is the ego...the mind doesn't necassarily stop functioning in enlightenment...sometimes it is stopped and sometimes it is moving...it rises and falls...but in enlightenment...just as in samadhi the ego falls away....samadhi and enlightenment are fundamentally the same thing...the only defferance is that in samadhi there is a cessation of ego but it will come back in one form or another at some point and it may adapt and manifest in some really sneaky ways....in enlightenment there is no cessation of ego....there is a death of it...it does not return Becuase it has surrendered and died....to reach enlightenment the ego has to be exhuasted until surrender to death....to reach samadhi the ego has to stop and be temporarily defeated or undone....if you are in samadhi from some practice like the practice of futility then you are fundamentally enlightened...but until you have exhuasted ego to the point of utter hopelessness and futility the ego will come back...it will likely just be more sneaky and try to blend in better.
|
|
|
|
Post by klaus on Aug 31, 2011 14:13:35 GMT -5
I'm tempted to print this thread out and use it for wallpaper!
|
|
|
|
Post by therealfake on Aug 31, 2011 15:07:45 GMT -5
I'm tempted to print this thread out and use it for wallpaper! Hahahah Bro, You could call it 'Consciousness' wallpaper... Or the wallpaper that looks back at itself. Peace |
|
|
|
Post by tathagata on Aug 31, 2011 15:13:32 GMT -5
tathagata, you remind me of a guy who used to post here. anyway. as to the seeker, self inqiury and so on. in my experience it's been pretty simple. my world was on fire, post-Jed, for about two years. for two years i burned and dug and scraped and played around inside of my head trying to get to the ground floor. eventually, that happened. the ground of being opened up - not just a recognition of no-self, but the recognition of What Remains - and then, from that point on..... playing around in my head has become just more b.s. to avoid what's really happening here. now, that has been the case now for 9 months. for 9 months, still, because of habit and whatever you want to call it, i keep up with the "spiritual ego" bull, as if it's going to offer me something. as a method of hiding, of avoiding what this really is, what i know to be true.... that slipping under the water is the only thing left, the only way to go.... further, as we may call it, although it couldn't possibly be further, it only ever ends up right here. anyway. in the end, as most teachers have told me, it's my spiritual ideas about how to live, how to deal with the angela character, that have me floating on top of the water. and they're so sneaky, they entrance and excite my imagination, they captivate and hold me hostage. i keep thinking that by more playing around inside of my character that i'm going to find the perfection that seems to hold court in my imagination. a woman said to me once: "everything that exists is in the way" and i didn't understand what she meant. until i did. don't let self inquiry be a prison, is my only advice. do it until it's done. and then once it's done.... let it be done. my truth is that it's done, clearly done, and cannot guide me anymore. the habit is to keep self-reflecting, to keep checking back to see how "i" am doing.... but it's b.s. and i know it. and so the inclination is wearing away like rock. i don't care how i'm doing anymore. so there. self inquiry got me here, but the real gut honesty is to admit that here is where i am, now that i am here (which, as we all know, isn't anywhere in particular, and isn't any further than where i started....).... but anyway. now that i am here, and i know i'm here..... i have to be honest and admit it. there's nothing else to gain from self inquiry but avoiding the obvious. avoiding THIS.... HERE.... love to you all. i've missed you. That's a very nice post Angela....it is indicative of an ego that is very tired and that's beautiful...don't give up yet though...you are tired...not utterly exhuasted. And utterly exhuasted is what's needed... Self inquiry is not meditation, it is self administered psychotherapy....psycotherapy searches and refines your understanding of yourself....meditation undoes yourself Self inquiry leads to insights that make you feel better or worse....meditation techniques destroy you...they annialate you into unbeing being....there is a big differance here... Please focus into some properly structured technique/meditation ...give up self inquiry if you are done with it...don't give up technique...not quite yet...you are very tired so it can happen very soon that you are exhuasted....then it can happen... Insight guides...self discovery guides...an effective meditation technique destroys... |
|
|
|
Post by tathagata on Sept 1, 2011 2:50:49 GMT -5
there are no shortcuts...effort is required until there is no more effort possible for you....until you cannot go on with anymore effort...then and only then is it time to go into effortlessness...if you do it in any other way the ego will keep comming back... love peace and hair grease suckers ;-)) There are many examples of awakening happening through insight rather than exhaustion. Did Niz fall off his gerbil wheel from exhaustion? With much love my friend Enigma...you are misenterpreting what Niz has said in way that supports your belief that becuase you have mastered effortlessness you have mastered. Niz has said that his master told him: "My guru, before he died, told me: Believe me, you are the Supreme Reality. Don't doubt my words, don't disbelieve me. I am telling you the truth -- act on it. I could not forget his words and by not forgetting -- I have realized." this is not an insight...it is a specific technique. there may be many more techniques his master used to help him exhuast himself..but we know for sure there are two at play here. the first is #29 of the 5000 year old 112 techniques in the vigyan bhairav tantra...the technique is called "Devotion Frees...." the second is #34: " Listen while the ultimate mystical teaching is imparted. Eyes still, without blinking, at once become absolutley free" to the first....there is a tradition in many indian guru/seeker relationships for the seeker to cultivate an absolute devotion to the guru...absolute devotion is a kind of surrender into a deep platonic love...in this technique the ego is surrendered, and thru a kind if union, samadhi can be reached. Ego cannot exist in the absence of the self and in deep devotion the self becomes surrendered... In addition...if you are near a buddha who is guiding you and you are open to him or her in devotion...or even just there with them everyday, your ego will become exhuasted from trying to survive...being near a master everyday will undo much of your ego...a master is not there to help you...he or she is there to destroy you...and they will not let up in this becuase of their compassion for you...so your ego will get so exhuasted near a master that you will either run away or get exhuasted. And also, if you are in complete devotion to a master, your guru,...and that master who is the object of your platonic love...and then he dies...this alone can be enough to exhuast you, break you...and with the object of the platonic love removed the platonic live can take on the universal love...the formless form. The second technique, #34...Nisgargadatta has said that enlightenment is spontanious...and it is...when the fruit is ripe it spontaniously falls from the tree...but not until it has ripened first...the master who is in close communion with his disciple will see very clearly when the fruit is ripe and ready...then this technique can work...it can be very spontanious to drop...the sutra says "at once become absolutely free"...so it happens very sponaniously...but only when the fruit is ripe. The "ultimate mystical teaching can be in many forms" it is not what is said or done by the master that is important...its that the fruit has become ripened and is ready to drop...Lin Chi sat on his masters porch for six years meditating...and then one day the master came out and looked him directly in the eye and luaghed and luaghed and luaghed...Lin chi sat unmoving, unblinking...and then he luaghed too and got up and left...he realized...the master knew the fruit was ripe and pushed just the right buttons in just the right way, and becuase the fruit was ripe Lin Chi did the technique in the right way (Sit unmoving unblinking while the ultimate mystical teaching is imparted) and he was enlightened...but it happened becuase the fruit was ripe. Go to the rating section of this website and read some of Niz's quotes, and play the video there of an interview with him...he says enlightenment can happen spontaniously and that effort or no effort will come naturally...but in the very next sentence he says that you have to stabilize in the "I am" continuasly (Technique # 87 in the vigyan bhairav tantra) and then a sentence or two later he says that all knowledge (by which he means the universal knowledge/conciousness...) can be achieved by constantly doing this technique...he is teaching one technique...#87...and says very very clearly that meditation must be done as much as possible for you to kill the ego.... On a side note...this technique...the "I am" technique...is not a good match for a lot of people here...becuase it is a heart centric technique...people are either intellect centric or heart centric, and heart centric person is feeling and poetry and emotion centered, an intellect centered person is thought, logic, and philosophy centered....techniques for the poet are not useful for the scientist and vice versa...and most people in the west are of the scientist dent...Charleegee or some of the guys continuously writing poetry here and expressing themselve poetically might do really well with the I am technique...but the rest will not becuase they are the intellectual type not the feeling type...so other techniques will be more useful. Nisargaddatta was a simple shop keeper who was a feeling type...he was not an intellectual...so this technique would have fit him very well. |
|
