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Post by tathagata on Aug 31, 2011 2:34:56 GMT -5
night guys...I hope you all die in your sleep and wake up buddhas lol
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Post by andrew on Aug 31, 2011 2:36:09 GMT -5
Andrew, the eventual outcome is that in one way of looking at things the whole world we create for ourselves is largely determined by a continuas value judgment of good or bad that you use to define your dream...by taking away all judgment you remove a big chunk of your ego's self determination...if you take it far enough this alone can exhuast the ego to death, becuase what is ego really but a set of definitions of good and bad...in one way of looking at it you can say that your ego IS personal judgments of good and bad...elimanate an ego that is manifesting in that way and you force it to rebuild or give up I get what you are saying and maybe it works, but what Im thinking is that choices still happen ...i.e.'this or that' and so ultimately what changes is the WAY in which 'this or that' is chosen. I would say that choosing becomes an experience of discernment, of intuition, of responsiveness to the situation. We cease to make choices based on rules about what we think we should be choosing. |
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Post by andrew on Aug 31, 2011 2:36:53 GMT -5
night guys...I hope you all die in your sleep and wake up buddhas lol Hehe thats what I pray for before going to sleep each night  Though Im British so Ive just had some morning toast |
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Post by tathagata on Aug 31, 2011 2:38:22 GMT -5
there are no shortcuts...effort is required until there is no more effort possible for you....until you cannot go on with anymore effort...then and only then is it time to go into effortlessness...if you do it in any other way the ego will keep comming back...
love peace and hair grease suckers ;-))
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Post by andrew on Aug 31, 2011 2:42:16 GMT -5
I dont have any issue with your practice, but I question how you see the eventual outcome of the practice.... . Well....try it for 30 years and find out. ;D Haha I think Ive probably got just about enough time to. |
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Post by andrew on Aug 31, 2011 2:43:09 GMT -5
Well....try it for 30 years and find out. ;D LOL enigma...or you could try effortlessness for 100 years and never get there lmao Haha fair point. |
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Post by andrew on Aug 31, 2011 2:48:42 GMT -5
there are no shortcuts...effort is required until there is no more effort possible for you....until you cannot go on with anymore effort...then and only then is it time to go into effortlessness...if you do it in any other way the ego will keep comming back... love peace and hair grease suckers ;-)) This has probably been said already but as I see it, the efforting ends in failure. But thats not a bad thing. Thats why I think that in the end the practices continue yet we stop judging the practices themselves. Its almost as if the process takes on a complete energy or life of its own. The releasing of ego continues yet without any 'one' really involved. |
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Post by tathagata on Aug 31, 2011 4:48:44 GMT -5
The releasing of ego continues yet without any 'one' really involved. close but just flip the coin...my mind is still there functioning, and there is still an I that is steven happening sometimes too, but there is no ego driving the bus now...I still see thoughts happening there...desires from time to time too...but I almost never see my mind going into the past or future anymore...I can see my mind thinking and doing as part of a connected whole with everyone elses minds...i can see my mind minding but I see it interwoven with all the other minds and the physical world. its like looking at a big multidimesional moving interwoven tapestry that is happening in stillness and steven is one part of the whole tapestry ...and the tapestry is always changing but the stillness is eternal and formless....thats about as close as I can get with words....I can show people how to get there easily, if they want to make the commitment to themselves...but describing what there is like is... |
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Post by andrew on Aug 31, 2011 5:10:21 GMT -5
The releasing of ego continues yet without any 'one' really involved. close but just flip the coin...my mind is still there functioning, and there is still an I that is steven happening sometimes too, but there is no ego driving the bus now...I still see thoughts happening there...desires from time to time too...but I almost never see my mind going into the past or future anymore...I can see my mind thinking and doing as part of a connected whole with everyone elses minds...i can see my mind minding but I see it interwoven with all the other minds and the physical world. its like looking at a big multidimesional moving interwoven tapestry that is happening in stillness and steven is one part of the whole tapestry ...and the tapestry is always changing but the stillness is eternal and formless....thats about as close as I can get with words....I can show people how to get there easily, if they want to make the commitment to themselves...but describing what there is like is... Your words and description pretty much works for me here tathagata. |
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Post by jasonl on Aug 31, 2011 8:00:51 GMT -5
Howdy strangers.
Some cool stuff going on in this thread. Good to see sales are down this month. The murder the employer bit was priceless enig. I have nothing worthwhile to add for now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2011 8:43:07 GMT -5
on practices and effort and lack thereof and such
i always think of a story i heard from my zen daze about a simpleton monk who was told by more senior monks that he would reach full arhatship when the fourth ball struck his head. so these senior monks (probably all zen masters and snickering below their breath) threw one ball and it struck this lowly monk on his bald head. then they bonked him with the second. and a third. and on the fourth, the lowly monk achieved the four stages of arhatship, became fully awakened, yada yada. apparently he became a good teacher too. probably scored some babes as well.
...kind of like throwing spaghetti at a wall and seeing what sticks. or in my case, at my head.
and i've got a whole lot of spaghetti noodles hangin from my head right now. some are sticking, some aren't.
edit: just remembered something that Mooji said in one of his recent podcasts (just keep seeing). he mentioned that enlightenment or whatever is too easy. the mind seeks complex processes (ie certification, etc). the Bhagavad Gita, for example, exists because Arjuna couldn't comprehend/understand what Krishna was saying. If Arjuna was wise enough to understand Krishna, there would be no BG.
same goes with practices, it seems.
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Post by tathagata on Aug 31, 2011 9:41:46 GMT -5
Andrew, the eventual outcome is that in one way of looking at things the whole world we create for ourselves is largely determined by a continuas value judgment of good or bad that you use to define your dream...by taking away all judgment you remove a big chunk of your ego's self determination...if you take it far enough this alone can exhuast the ego to death, becuase what is ego really but a set of definitions of good and bad...in one way of looking at it you can say that your ego IS personal judgments of good and bad...elimanate an ego that is manifesting in that way and you force it to rebuild or give up I get what you are saying and maybe it works, but what Im thinking is that choices still happen ...i.e.'this or that' and so ultimately what changes is the WAY in which 'this or that' is chosen. I would say that choosing becomes an experience of discernment, of intuition, of responsiveness to the situation. We cease to make choices based on rules about what we think we should be choosing. Again...we have to be clear here...there is no universal technique...for some types this is a perfect technique....for others no...I would not suggest this technique for you Andrew, at least not as you are today...it won't fit you Becuase generally speaking the judgment manifestation of ego isn't very strong in you. |
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Post by tathagata on Aug 31, 2011 9:57:12 GMT -5
Andrew, the eventual outcome is that in one way of looking at things the whole world we create for ourselves is largely determined by a continuas value judgment of good or bad that you use to define your dream...by taking away all judgment you remove a big chunk of your ego's self determination...if you take it far enough this alone can exhuast the ego to death, becuase what is ego really but a set of definitions of good and bad...in one way of looking at it you can say that your ego IS personal judgments of good and bad...elimanate an ego that is manifesting in that way and you force it to rebuild or give up I get what you are saying and maybe it works, but what Im thinking is that choices still happen ...i.e.'this or that' and so ultimately what changes is the WAY in which 'this or that' is chosen. I would say that choosing becomes an experience of discernment, of intuition, of responsiveness to the situation. We cease to make choices based on rules about what we think we should be choosing. I agree here Andrew...that's very perceptive and concice....this particular technique does not eliminate choice...but it helps with removing the subconcious dogma of good or bad the the ego often uses to influence choices...and in so doing you are more centered in youself...less swing from one place to another...the choice just is...you are not moved by it so much...you are creating less around the choice and are more in the middle...its almost like the ego needs food and you are not giving it the food of value judgment....for some people this technique can be useful Becuase value judgment is the staple food of the ego...so denying it this food is good...for others value judgment is not the staple food of the ego...so some other food should be denied it. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 31, 2011 10:10:20 GMT -5
this technique is not a good match for you andrew...its a good match for ivory right now...but maybe not even for him later...I just a particular manifestation of ego in him that this technique is good for....as an aside this is a very dangerous technique for society to follow in general...becuase taken to its extreme even murder is not seen as good or bad...its only useful in certain situations with certain people. but a note on the finer points of the technique...its the removal of value judgments not preferances...its just the removal of the choices good or bad as value judgments...for example...you wouldnt not choose honey or jam...you would just not allow your choice to be seen or felt as good or bad...it just is...neither good nor bad...it just is. I think the key word you said there is 'preference'. I still experience preferences but not really value judgments. Which reminds me of a conversation I had with someone the other day about the difference between 'discernment' and 'judgment'. The conclusion that was drawn was that the former is intuitive and the latter is 'of the mind'. Well, I don't think there's anything intuitive about discerning the difference between black and white. I agree, though, with the implication that there's nothing problematic about that discernment until a value judgment is made. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 31, 2011 10:20:15 GMT -5
Well....try it for 30 years and find out. ;D LOL enigma...or you could try effortlessness for 100 years and never get there lmao Effortlessness is not being suggested as a practice by the practice curmudgeon. What is being pointed to is futility. Your belief seems to be that futility can only be realized through total exhaustion brought on my mindlessly practicing until the gerbil falls off the wheel because you don't believe that insight is useful. Perhaps this has been your experience, but at this point I'm not certain of that since the gerbil still seems to be paddling it's little feet.  |
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Though Im British so Ive just had some morning toast 
