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Post by tathagata on Sept 1, 2011 10:55:08 GMT -5
Enigma you have had success with the "be hopeless" or "futility technique...put some attentiveness into it..a kind of effort where you look for and see the futility of everything...including the Technique...let the futility consume you...even let effortlessness be consumed by futility.
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Post by enigma on Sept 1, 2011 11:14:23 GMT -5
Well I'm just a simple shop keeper so I don't have your dizzying knowledge (which my ego finds exhausting. Hehe). That knowledge never did anything for me. I only know what I see, and I see that ego is an idea and not a gerbil that has to exhaust itself on it's wheel for 30 years and fall over dead. I see that techniques are ego's attempt to get somewhere, and I see that there's nowhere to get to. I see that nobody is running the show, and so all these directors telling the actors what they need to do are also part of the show.
I came from a place of not really knowing anything which seems to have made it much easier to see that there is nothing to know. How does one escape prison by building more walls? How far does one have to go to get where one is? How long does it take to notice the absurdity of looking for what one is? The game of seeking does indeed have to exhaust itself, and one way is to seek like a madman until the futility of that is seen, (I've been joking elsewhere about my new book 'The Power of Futility'. Hehe) but another way is to just stop paddling the wheel for a moment and notice you're not going anywhere. The game goes on as long as there is another technique that one can follow religiously, and so if any doing suggestions are offered it's nothing more than pawzing and simply noticing what in blazes is really going on.
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Post by enigma on Sept 1, 2011 11:20:21 GMT -5
Enigma you have had success with the "be hopeless" or "futility technique...put some attentiveness into it..a kind of effort where you look for and see the futility of everything...including the Technique...let the futility consume you...even let effortlessness be consumed by futility. I haven't used a 'futility technique'. If futility is not seen, it's useless and distracting. You have a doing hammer and you see everything as a technique nail. Put the hammer down and back away slowly. |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 1, 2011 15:49:28 GMT -5
Well I'm just a simple shop keeper so I don't have your dizzying knowledge (which my ego finds exhausting. Hehe). That knowledge never did anything for me. I only know what I see, and I see that ego is an idea and not a gerbil that has to exhaust itself on it's wheel for 30 years and fall over dead. I see that techniques are ego's attempt to get somewhere, and I see that there's nowhere to get to. I see that nobody is running the show, and so all these directors telling the actors what they need to do are also part of the show. I came from a place of not really knowing anything which seems to have made it much easier to see that there is nothing to know. How does one escape prison by building more walls? How far does one have to go to get where one is? How long does it take to notice the absurdity of looking for what one is? The game of seeking does indeed have to exhaust itself, and one way is to seek like a madman until the futility of that is seen, (I've been joking elsewhere about my new book 'The Power of Futility'. Hehe) but another way is to just stop paddling the wheel for a moment and notice you're not going anywhere. The game goes on as long as there is another technique that one can follow religiously, and so if any doing suggestions are offered it's nothing more than pawzing and simply noticing what in blazes is really going on. The shop keeper you you compare yourself too adamently spoke of meditation LOL... Meditation does not build walls...it tears them down...every enlightened teacher has said it needs effort...until it doesn't...Niz and Buddha and the krishnamertis and every other enlightened teacher in history has been wrong under your premise....this effortless doctrine is a thing if western Buddhism...western Zen...and jed mckenna was correct when he said that western Zen and western Buddhism was not Buddhism...it is happyism....I said elsewhere that i agree with jed...happyism will not lead to enlightenment....but I have also said that this is perfectly okay....there is nothing wrong with happyism...unless you want enlightenment....effortlessness will make happyness...it will not make enlightenment...not by itself anyway....effort is needed until its not. |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 1, 2011 15:55:21 GMT -5
Enigma you have had success with the "be hopeless" or "futility technique...put some attentiveness into it..a kind of effort where you look for and see the futility of everything...including the Technique...let the futility consume you...even let effortlessness be consumed by futility. I haven't used a 'futility technique'. If futility is not seen, it's useless and distracting. You have a doing hammer and you see everything as a technique nail. Put the hammer down and back away slowly. LOL...that last sentence was a wonderful turn of phrase...I genuinly enjoyed it...a wonderful flower. You should write a book and call it "being effortless" or "effortless being"....a book of this type will have great appeal and have a great impact on making people happy...it will likely sell millions of copies over time....you will have many followers and recieved many accolades which you will have rightfully deserved. Thank you for the advice Bob...is your book about being effortless?....It is very good advice and will make many many people become happy...if it gains broad success it can help a lot of problems in society. Bob/zendancer how does it help our friends to "rate" spiritual teachers and judge them based on some kind of guidelines? Is this more helpful than just providing information?...where does it come from this rating thing...is it a product of stillness speaking or a product of ego and financial motivation? Do you think the ratings help people with there ego or pandering to it? Is your website search optimization for spiritual teachers generating enough hits? If not try creating some backlinking with other peoples sights, it works well. Blogs and articles spread out over the web can help funnel people back to the sight too. I went to look in the mirror just now...there was still nothing there....what do you see when you see me? |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 1, 2011 17:45:49 GMT -5
Tat: At one time I thought I was making a significant effort--meditating, attending the actual, and trying all kinds of techniques to wake up. At one time I even thought that spending lots of time in samadhi would do the trick. I had some big cosmic consciousness experiences, many experiences of absolute samadhi, many experiences of relative samadhi in which "I" wasn't present during daily activities, and a whole host of insights and realizations. One day the penny dropped, and in retrospect it is now obvious that all of my ideas were a joke. I now know that no effort of any kind was necessary, and I know that I made no effort at all. I was always what I was looking for even though I didn't realize it.
After the penny dropped in 1999, I was mad to teach, so I know what that feels like. Pity the poor people who were around me at that time. Fortunately, things calmed down pretty soon afterwards, and life became ordinary again. Please re-read what you've written to Enigma and ask yourself where all of this judgmentalness and authoritarianism is coming from. Your confidence is now spilling over into self-righteousness. Lighten up a bit. Lightening up is Technique #999. LOL
FWIW there are an infinite number of paths that lead to self-realization. Some of those paths appear to require effort, but this is an appearance only. Some people wake up without making any effort at all. Ramana was 16 years old when he woke up, and there is no mention that he had done any serious meditation prior to that time. Seung Sahn was 22. Tolle woke up as a result of asking himself one silly question. There are no rules here. What we are is infinitely mysterious, and we discover the truth of our mysteriousness in many unusual ways.
What we might call "the standard model" involves various forms of meditation and what appears to be persistence, or effort, but there are many people who find the truth in other non-standard ways. Zen has numerous koans about this sort of thing, and I am reminded of the koan that goes, "A serious monk sat in samadhi for a million years, but never woke up. Why?" We could pose a similar koan as, "An average guy who never meditated a single day woke up. Why?" Both of these koans are pointing to the same mystery.
What we are is a unified whole, so although there is the idea or appearance of effort, there is no one separate who can make an effort to get to wholeness. We are wholeness already. The idea of exhausting an imaginary seeker is, itself, imaginary. Although I often encourage people to be persistent, I am aware that whatever I say is true and false at the same time. I could say the exact opposite, and it might be just as effective. Whatever "works" is the luck of the draw. Just my two cents worth. Best wishes.
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Post by enigma on Sept 1, 2011 18:12:05 GMT -5
Well I'm just a simple shop keeper so I don't have your dizzying knowledge (which my ego finds exhausting. Hehe). That knowledge never did anything for me. I only know what I see, and I see that ego is an idea and not a gerbil that has to exhaust itself on it's wheel for 30 years and fall over dead. I see that techniques are ego's attempt to get somewhere, and I see that there's nowhere to get to. I see that nobody is running the show, and so all these directors telling the actors what they need to do are also part of the show. I came from a place of not really knowing anything which seems to have made it much easier to see that there is nothing to know. How does one escape prison by building more walls? How far does one have to go to get where one is? How long does it take to notice the absurdity of looking for what one is? The game of seeking does indeed have to exhaust itself, and one way is to seek like a madman until the futility of that is seen, (I've been joking elsewhere about my new book 'The Power of Futility'. Hehe) but another way is to just stop paddling the wheel for a moment and notice you're not going anywhere. The game goes on as long as there is another technique that one can follow religiously, and so if any doing suggestions are offered it's nothing more than pawzing and simply noticing what in blazes is really going on. The shop keeper you you compare yourself too adamently spoke of meditation LOL... Meditation does not build walls...it tears them down...every enlightened teacher has said it needs effort...until it doesn't...Niz and Buddha and the krishnamertis and every other enlightened teacher in history has been wrong under your premise....this effortless doctrine is a thing if western Buddhism...western Zen...and jed mckenna was correct when he said that western Zen and western Buddhism was not Buddhism...it is happyism....I said elsewhere that i agree with jed...happyism will not lead to enlightenment....but I have also said that this is perfectly okay....there is nothing wrong with happyism...unless you want enlightenment....effortlessness will make happyness...it will not make enlightenment...not by itself anyway....effort is needed until its not. You're not listening to me, and so this is the last time I will say it. Effort is needed until it is seen that effort is not needed. |
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Post by therealfake on Sept 1, 2011 18:17:35 GMT -5
Spiritual egotism seems to be everywhere, today
Peace
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Post by enigma on Sept 1, 2011 18:19:02 GMT -5
I haven't used a 'futility technique'. If futility is not seen, it's useless and distracting. You have a doing hammer and you see everything as a technique nail. Put the hammer down and back away slowly. LOL...that last sentence was a wonderful turn of phrase...I genuinly enjoyed it...a wonderful flower. You should write a book and call it "being effortless" or "effortless being"....a book of this type will have great appeal and have a great impact on making people happy...it will likely sell millions of copies over time....you will have many followers and recieved many accolades which you will have rightfully deserved. I don't suggest to peeps that they be effortless. I do, however, talk a lot about giraffe spotting. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 1, 2011 18:26:48 GMT -5
Tat: At one time I thought I was making a significant effort--meditating, attending the actual, and trying all kinds of techniques to wake up. At one time I even thought that spending lots of time in samadhi would do the trick. I had some big cosmic consciousness experiences, many experiences of absolute samadhi, many experiences of relative samadhi in which "I" wasn't present during daily activities, and a whole host of insights and realizations. One day the penny dropped, and in retrospect it is now obvious that all of my ideas were a joke. I now know that no effort of any kind was necessary, and I know that I made no effort at all. I was always what I was looking for even though I didn't realize it. After the penny dropped in 1999, I was mad to teach, so I know what that feels like. Pity the poor people who were around me at that time. Fortunately, things calmed down pretty soon afterwards, and life became ordinary again. Please re-read what you've written to Enigma and ask yourself where all of this judgmentalness and authoritarianism is coming from. Your confidence is now spilling over into self-righteousness. Lighten up a bit. Lightening up is Technique #999. LOL FWIW there are an infinite number of paths that lead to self-realization. Some of those paths appear to require effort, but this is an appearance only. Some people wake up without making any effort at all. Ramana was 16 years old when he woke up, and there is no mention that he had done any serious meditation prior to that time. Seung Sahn was 22. Tolle woke up as a result of asking himself one silly question. There are no rules here. What we are is infinitely mysterious, and we discover the truth of our mysteriousness in many unusual ways. What we might call "the standard model" involves various forms of meditation and what appears to be persistence, or effort, but there are many people who find the truth in other non-standard ways. Zen has numerous koans about this sort of thing, and I am reminded of the koan that goes, "A serious monk sat in samadhi for a million years, but never woke up. Why?" We could pose a similar koan as, "An average guy who never meditated a single day woke up. Why?" Both of these koans are pointing to the same mystery. What we are is a unified whole, so although there is the idea or appearance of effort, there is no one separate who can make an effort to get to wholeness. We are wholeness already. The idea of exhausting an imaginary seeker is, itself, imaginary. Although I often encourage people to be persistent, I am aware that whatever I say is true and false at the same time. I could say the exact opposite, and it might be just as effective. Whatever "works" is the luck of the draw. Just my two cents worth. Best wishes. Your sanity is always appreciated, Zen. Sometimes I can appreciate it more.  |
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Post by further on Sept 1, 2011 20:52:33 GMT -5
tathagata,
Could you suggest some techniques for the intellectual type besides withdraw from judgment?
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Post by tathagata on Sept 1, 2011 21:05:36 GMT -5
Tat: At one time I thought I was making a significant effort--meditating, attending the actual, and trying all kinds of techniques to wake up. At one time I even thought that spending lots of time in samadhi would do the trick. I had some big cosmic consciousness experiences, many experiences of absolute samadhi, many experiences of relative samadhi in which "I" wasn't present during daily activities, and a whole host of insights and realizations. One day the penny dropped, and in retrospect it is now obvious that all of my ideas were a joke. I now know that no effort of any kind was necessary, and I know that I made no effort at all. I was always what I was looking for even though I didn't realize it. After the penny dropped in 1999, I was mad to teach, so I know what that feels like. Pity the poor people who were around me at that time. Fortunately, things calmed down pretty soon afterwards, and life became ordinary again. Please re-read what you've written to Enigma and ask yourself where all of this judgmentalness and authoritarianism is coming from. Your confidence is now spilling over into self-righteousness. Lighten up a bit. Lightening up is Technique #999. LOL FWIW there are an infinite number of paths that lead to self-realization. Some of those paths appear to require effort, but this is an appearance only. Some people wake up without making any effort at all. Ramana was 16 years old when he woke up, and there is no mention that he had done any serious meditation prior to that time. Seung Sahn was 22. Tolle woke up as a result of asking himself one silly question. There are no rules here. What we are is infinitely mysterious, and we discover the truth of our mysteriousness in many unusual ways. What we might call "the standard model" involves various forms of meditation and what appears to be persistence, or effort, but there are many people who find the truth in other non-standard ways. Zen has numerous koans about this sort of thing, and I am reminded of the koan that goes, "A serious monk sat in samadhi for a million years, but never woke up. Why?" We could pose a similar koan as, "An average guy who never meditated a single day woke up. Why?" Both of these koans are pointing to the same mystery. What we are is a unified whole, so although there is the idea or appearance of effort, there is no one separate who can make an effort to get to wholeness. We are wholeness already. The idea of exhausting an imaginary seeker is, itself, imaginary. Although I often encourage people to be persistent, I am aware that whatever I say is true and false at the same time. I could say the exact opposite, and it might be just as effective. Whatever "works" is the luck of the draw. Just my two cents worth. Best wishes. Very similarly I had many moments of samadhi over almost 20 years of effort...many experiences and much time in no experience...then I sat down on my balcony watching the mountains and the sunset and the river of cars go by...I I gave up in that moment...I gave up the searching...I gave up on enlightenment...and I gave up on my life...I surrendered myself to die...literaly...I gave up in a way that I was goin.g into death.....and then the thing happened...I entered stillness for what I thought was the last time, feeling in myself that i had no reason to live in this life anymore and that my whole struggle was a failure...so I let go of every part of me and slipped into the stillness... In that moment the whole tapestry of mind opened up before me...there was my mind in a continouos whole with all other mind and all of it happening in and pervaded by stillness...I could very clearly see the absudity of the effort I made and how the enlightenment I searched for was there all along...no effort was needed whatsoever...it was always right there and in the end only my searching was hiding the obvious from myself...it was also how remarkable how ordinary enlightenment was...and how absurd it was to spend so much effort trying for such an ordinary thing. In those first few moments afterward while watching the part of continuas mind that i had identified with come to understanding and be healed from searching I saw it thinking that the 20 years of effort were wasted on a search for something so ordinary that was there all along...but then it became clear that no time was wasted...those twenty years were exactly what it took for me to get to the point were effort and searching was the roadblock...the next thought through the mind was that all activities were pointless...except for one....and that was to inspire people...not nessacarily to inspire them to enlightenment...but to inpire them to realize that whatever they chose for themselves it is right there already and that continued suffering was a choice they didn't have to make... Enlightenment is no a more worthwhile goal than just the goal of being happy in whatever way happiness manifests for you...the only benefit that enlightenment has is freedom...but you don't have to be free to be happy.... If you do in fact want enlightenment...then you have to be willing to die..you have to let everything go...including your effort and search...to be truelly free you have to end your life, or at least your connection to it...until you do you are not free...you are only deluded by more subtle manifestations of the ego...your ego has decided to manifest in a way that blends in and keeps you content...this is perfectly fine...there is no harm in this and great benefit, Becuase no matter what way you are or are not, you are still exactly as you were meant to be in the beuatiful but pointless unfolding of the infinate no self...but you are not free and can only help others get free to a certain degree...to the degree in which you are free.... Since that sunset...the sunset of my old idea of me I have been in uninterupted stillness...I am whole...there is no more doing...in most cases there is only conversation in a question and answer format...Becuase without the question there is nothing there to respond ...in some other cases there is a spontanious flowering of movement and I say or write something that is happening in that moment and is gone...there is no desire to teach...teaching happens when it happens...there is no powerful desire for anything...not even breath...sometimes that even stops...and with no expectation that it will start again it flowers...nothing happens that is not a spontanious flowering anymore... It flowered that i was talking through and with enigma that effort was needed...it is flowering now that these words are comming...it may be that in some tomorrow present that words will flower that say something differant...they have before and will again...it was and is absolutely important that these words were and are flowing ....Becuase they are flowing...there can be no other way Becuase it is happening, and would not be happening if it wasn't the isness that is supposed to be...it was once said that the most dangerous salesman was one that just came from making a huge sale and all the money he wanted...he would tell you what you needed not what you wanted to hear, he already got what he wanted earlier so he wasn't going to try and get anything from you, he was just going to tell you the truth...there is no powerful need to teach, there is no realization that i feel needs to be shared... there is no need for this body or this mind...it is there though...it is happening...beyond that there is nothing....be angry at the words that flow or not angry with them...they are only a mirror of your choosing reflecting but what you came to see...if the mirror was not needed it would not be there. |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 2, 2011 6:33:00 GMT -5
Tat: A don't-know-it-all is a lot more aligned with truth than a know-it-all. Look in the mirror.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 2, 2011 12:35:16 GMT -5
Further
Another technique for the intellectual type.
Try to imagine something unimaginable...try to think of no thing...try to have a thought about something that cannot be percieved or understood...and remember...even nothingness and non existance can be understood...try and have a thought about something that cannot be percieved or understood.
Do this as often as possible but without being mad at yourself if you forget to do it..just come back to it casually without judging yourself negatively for forgetting...practice should be attentive play..like a young child plays a game..they are very engaged and serious about the play...but they are having fun Becuase it is play.
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Post by enigma on Sept 2, 2011 12:36:54 GMT -5
Bob isn't your book on effortlessness?...also...if the ego is gone why don't you rate yourself in the rating page...are you rated in there...with enlightenment ego and planning goes away..so it should be no problem to put Bob in there...there is no conflict of interest if there is no interest/ego....are you enlightened Bob?...not that it matters...are things are equal and the same...that does beg the question though...why the rating system...how many stars will I get...how many will you get? There's a ratings page?  Where? |
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