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Post by enigma on Aug 30, 2011 22:14:23 GMT -5
Enigma...why be for or against anything?...I.e for or against practice or techniques or no techniques...or anything else? Why not? Folks want to get to Rome and not all roads lead there. Most lead away, and the best mostly circle around the city endlessly. A good compass is not cause for suffering. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 30, 2011 22:18:37 GMT -5
I would say thats a practice. LOL...true dat Andrew....the practice of no practice LOL. Though it may take a focus of attention, noticing is ultimately effortless, and effortlessness is not a practice. However, the point is not to escape the practice label but to distinguish between applying effort toward a goal, and removing it. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 30, 2011 22:20:21 GMT -5
I think the difference between thagathas method of practice amd enigmas is that thagathas puts the seeker behind the wheel. That seeker is the efforter, the resistor, the suppressor, the denier. By dropping back into the witness position and watching, it starts to become clear that the efforter is the obstacle (on more and more subtle levels). From this point forth its an entirely different process. Namely surrender, allowance, acceptance, and trust. Exactamente. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 30, 2011 22:25:40 GMT -5
Ivory, I agree with what you've been saying. Judgment arises out of beliefs, fears, desires and such in the conditioning, and the end result appears in conscious awareness. At that point there can only be the recognition that what is being experienced is unwanted and attention turned away from it repeatedly, which does nothing to alter the conditioning beyond the simple recognition, so I say notice it and let it be, or start excavating and find out if the judgment has any basis in reality. If the excavating approach is engaged, there may be insights that undermine the foundation of the judgment since it really is an illusion, and if this is clear, the judging thoughts simply cease to arise. For example, if it is seen that volition is an illusion, judgment of self and other has no basis and cannot be indulged in seriously as there is no-one to blame. there is a whole lot of hypothisizing and conjecture about what a technique might or might not do...what benefit it might have...and where the technique originates from..why it might be good or not good etc.......why not just try it? I could do that......or I could rearrange my sock drawer, which seems the more immediate issue of the two.  |
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Post by tathagata on Aug 31, 2011 0:21:12 GMT -5
LOL...true dat Andrew....the practice of no practice LOL. Though it may take a focus of attention, noticing is ultimately effortless, and effortlessness is not a practice. However, the point is not to escape the practice label but to distinguish between applying effort toward a goal, and removing it. Enigma here is an enigma for you my friend, "Effort is needed, but effort alone is not enough – effort and THEN effortlessness, effort plus effortlessness. Effort precedes, and then effortlessness follows. Effortlessness is the peak of effort, it comes only when you have reached the limit of exhuastion from effort, this is the only time for it...until you have utterly exhuasted your ego/mind from the effort it is not time for the effortlessness. And this is so difficult to conceive that there are many misunderstandings. It is often misunderstood that meditation is an effort, becuase it is in the beggining...but it is effort that leads toward effortlessness....meditation that is taken far enough exhuasts you to the point of rock bottom, this is becuase meditation is always emptying the hole and your mind and ego is always refilling the hole, sometimes in very sneeky ways ( like convincing you that insight will arrest unwanted behaviors or wrong beliefs instead of just replacing them with new insights)...meditation empties the hole, ego fills the hole back in with dirt...only when you have utterly exhusted yourself until the ego cannot go on refilling the hole is it time for no effort...you will know when this is becuase you absolutlely cannot go on whether you want to or not...rock bottom....only at rock bottom is it time for effortlessness or surrender....there is a time for effort and there is a time for effortlessness. In Japan, Zen says no effort is needed. And it is right in the end. But because of this Zen has become very popular in the West. And the West has created its own Zen writers – they are Zen WRITERS, not Zen MASTERS. And it has much appeal with westerners becuase no effort is needed, you can become enlightened without any effort. How cool is this! So in the West there are many Zen writers, Zen painters, Zen haiku poets – and they are all bogus, because they have taken this idea that no effort is ever required. This idea is very appealing, that there is no need of any effort. You can have many many people say you are an amazing help to them becuase you told them there was no effort needed to achieve there hearts desire, no effort is wonderful to people scared of the effort. If there is no need of any effort, then if you just stop making effort wow are a master, you are enlightened, you think have become are an example of the right way and you have achieved something, all becuase you think no effort is the master way and you have achieved it. But then look at the Zen monasteries in Japan. If you read Zen scriptures, there it is written that there is no need of effort. But then go to the Zen monastery and look: for twenty years, thirty years, a seeker has to make all the efforts. They have to make every effort they can becuase the time for no effort can only work when the seeker is utterly exhuasted by effort, this is why I call it a rock bottom. Then the moment comes when that scripture becomes applicable – then, no effort." You stopped short of making the effort needed to get to the time of no effort enigma, and you have convinced yourself that you have become a Master becuase you think you succeeded at no effort....but the problem is that you never really hit rock bottom...you never really utterly exhuasted yourself with effort first...you just went into effortlessness as soon as you heard about it becuase it was very attractive....no need to exhuast yourself...how cool is that lol....but it is not true....I know that you never reached rock bottom where you had utterly spent yourself in effort and had no more to give...I know you gave up effort before you should have, before your ego was spent and could not go on.... How do I know this...becuase when you have done this you can very easily recognize it in others...you have not recognized that no one here that I have been talking to except Popee had reached or was ready to reach rock bottom and be at the time of no effort, the time of surrendering, unveilable is the only one besides Popee tha even appears that they are willing to exhuast themselves in the effort...you never reached this point so you cannot recognize it in others, and as such are doing nothing but selling a very attractive way of reaching nowhere that you have bought into yourself....how wonderfully attractive...you can do it with no effort. If this is true why has every enlightened helper in histroy urged their students to commit every effort Effort is not enough...but you will not get there without effort, and not just effort, the maximum effort that exhuasts your mind/ego so much that it can't go on, so utterly exhuasted that you hit rock bottom, and cannot go on if you wanted to. I don't know that much about Richard Rose, but I know that he use to work people to exhuastion on the farm, why do you think this was?...becuase effort is needed until there is no more effort to give...out of love he was trying to exhuast them. I did the same with Popee in a differant way...I sent him a PM trying to exhuast the last of him, I can only hope it worked and he had nothing else left. Stop selling this no effort is needed misunderstanding...and do yourself a favor and spend the effort to get to the point of no effort, becuase you have spent so much in being effortless your ego is probably the strongest and most well rested here...exhuast it by forcing it to fight for survival against meditation practices...this is the only way you will reach enlightenment...There are many techniques to exhuast your ego into death, but really there is only one way to reach enlightenment, and that is to exhuast all efforts until there is nothing more to give, and then become effortless....you can sell a lot of books and be very popular selling "no effort"...but if you want to stop deluding yourself and give yourself the greatest gift, the greatest success....the gift of unbeing being...put in some effort until you have spent yourself utterly and then be effortless. If I give a technique its becuase I can clearly see a part of the ego that needs exhuasting....I will keep making holes in a person and making their ego refil them until the ego is spent and can do no more.... Thank you Bhagwan |
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Post by enigma on Aug 31, 2011 1:23:05 GMT -5
What I said is "I don't deny the appropriateness of some practices, I just see the ultimate futility of them. Practices can teach us that."
Which is essentially what you have said. Though I haven't pigeon-holed folk's enlightenment potential here, it's possible some are ready to see the futility of working on ego issues and mind control and so I talk about it rather than encouraging more diversions.
Also, while disagreement doesn't seem to go over well with you, I have to disagree that insights are not transformative. For many, insights become just more conceptual grasping, and so exhaustion is all that can occur, which seems to have been your experience. You seem to deny the potential of insights and agree that futility is the goal, and so I wonder why any sort of furious practice would not serve equally well in your recommendations, but in any case I prefer to point directly in hopes of skipping over some of those "30 years" of mind games.
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Post by andrew on Aug 31, 2011 1:53:04 GMT -5
LOL...true dat Andrew....the practice of no practice LOL. Though it may take a focus of attention, noticing is ultimately effortless, and effortlessness is not a practice. However, the point is not to escape the practice label but to distinguish between applying effort toward a goal, and removing it. Focusing attention on something in still purposeful and therefore still qualifies as a practice and does require at least a modicum of effort, though it sounds like you have mastered it to the point of effortlessness. Your practice sounds less hard work than some practices, but actually sounds kinda hard work compared to some of my practices hehe. |
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Post by tathagata on Aug 31, 2011 2:05:08 GMT -5
insights are exactly transformative in that they transform or replace one part of the ego with another
its not the practice that should be furious...its the ego that should be made furious trying to fill in the emptyness that proper practice makes...in one way of saying it enlightenment is the death of ego...but ego will never die until it is exhuasted and cannot go on...it is not the meditation practices that exhuast...it is the ego being torn down and constantly having to rebuild itself ntil there is no where left for it to go that is exhuasting.
Why one technique over another?...the ego manifests in differant ways in differant times with differant people...if you can see how the ego is manifesting you can see a specific type of technique that will snuff out that particular part of the ego and force it to rebuild in some other way....you are right...in the end all practices are futile becuase in the end you have to give up practices...but you cannot be free of the ego until you have exhuasted it to the point where it cannot go on...until it cannot rebuild or remanifest and it surrenders.
This doesnt have to take 30 years if you work hard enough to exhuast it...I often think it takes thirty years in the monastary becuase it is basically a secluded stress free life and exhuastion takes longer sometimes....it does not have to take 30 years of mind games...but you cannot shortcut the effort either...the best you can do is speed things by by increasing your effort to exhuast ego with meditation so it doesnt take so long....so ironically less effort until it is time for effortlessness will make it take longer...while more intense effort will make the end of ego happen faster.
For what its worth to you brother I know you are talking about effortlessness out of compassion but the most compassionate thing you can do for the world right now is to liberate yourself...and you have not reached the time for effortlessness yet...not quite yet anyway....you still have more stength in you to spend...when it is all spent you can achieve something...into then your ego will just get more creative...more sneaky....the ego is like a black mouse in a black room...no matter how much light you shine in the rome if there is even one sliver of shadow the ego will find it and hide in it.
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Post by andrew on Aug 31, 2011 2:07:37 GMT -5
Remove all judgment..including the judgment of the seeker and witnesser and your mind...and see if a seeker remains...the starting place is with a particular part of the seeker/illusion that can be undone...the ending place is the place where ends end LOL. In disclosure....any technique I describe here is for that person in that place...its not a universal technique that is right for every reader in every place...that doesn't mean that a technique isn't right for more than one person...it just means its not automatically right for you...what system or no system is right for everyone in every situation... It's just a recommendation...an invitation to try it. I dont have any issue with your practice, but I question how you see the eventual outcome of the practice.... Do you think that we end up without being 'for and against' things? To me that doesnt sound practical. For example, this morning I got up and had a moment of decision between toast and jam and toast and honey. I chose 'for' jam and 'against' honey. Admittedly I didnt go to war on the honey, but there was still a subtle sense of saying yes to one and no to another. I like the sound of a life in which I am only saying 'yes', but practically speaking I find the most healthy, loving and intelligent thing to do sometimes is say 'no'. |
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Post by tathagata on Aug 31, 2011 2:17:02 GMT -5
this technique is not a good match for you andrew...its a good match for ivory right now...but maybe not even for him later...I saw a particular manifestation of ego in him that this technique is good for....as an aside this is a very dangerous technique for society to follow in general...becuase taken to its extreme even murder is not seen as good or bad...its only useful in certain situations with certain people.
but a note on the finer points of the technique...its the removal of value judgments not preferances...its just the removal of the choices good or bad as value judgments...for example...you wouldnt not choose honey or jam...you would just not allow your choice to be seen or felt as good or bad...it just is...neither good nor bad...it just is.
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Post by enigma on Aug 31, 2011 2:20:26 GMT -5
Though it may take a focus of attention, noticing is ultimately effortless, and effortlessness is not a practice. However, the point is not to escape the practice label but to distinguish between applying effort toward a goal, and removing it. Focusing attention on something in still purposeful and therefore still qualifies as a practice and does require at least a modicum of effort, though it sounds like you have mastered it to the point of effortlessness. Your practice sounds less hard work than some practices, but actually sounds kinda hard work compared to some of my practices hehe. Then by all means lets call it a practice.  |
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Post by tathagata on Aug 31, 2011 2:22:57 GMT -5
Andrew,
the eventual outcome is that in one way of looking at things the whole world we create for ourselves is largely determined by a continuas value judgment of good or bad that you use to define your dream...by taking away all judgment you remove a big chunk of your ego's self determination...if you take it far enough this alone can exhuast the ego to death, becuase what is ego really but a set of definitions of good and bad...in one way of looking at it you can say that your ego IS personal judgments of good and bad...elimanate an ego that is manifesting in that way and you force it to rebuild or give up
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Post by enigma on Aug 31, 2011 2:27:14 GMT -5
Remove all judgment..including the judgment of the seeker and witnesser and your mind...and see if a seeker remains...the starting place is with a particular part of the seeker/illusion that can be undone...the ending place is the place where ends end LOL. In disclosure....any technique I describe here is for that person in that place...its not a universal technique that is right for every reader in every place...that doesn't mean that a technique isn't right for more than one person...it just means its not automatically right for you...what system or no system is right for everyone in every situation... It's just a recommendation...an invitation to try it. I dont have any issue with your practice, but I question how you see the eventual outcome of the practice.... . Well....try it for 30 years and find out. ;D |
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Post by andrew on Aug 31, 2011 2:28:55 GMT -5
this technique is not a good match for you andrew...its a good match for ivory right now...but maybe not even for him later...I just a particular manifestation of ego in him that this technique is good for....as an aside this is a very dangerous technique for society to follow in general...becuase taken to its extreme even murder is not seen as good or bad...its only useful in certain situations with certain people. but a note on the finer points of the technique...its the removal of value judgments not preferances...its just the removal of the choices good or bad as value judgments...for example...you wouldnt not choose honey or jam...you would just not allow your choice to be seen or felt as good or bad...it just is...neither good nor bad...it just is. I think the key word you said there is 'preference'. I still experience preferences but not really value judgments. Which reminds me of a conversation I had with someone the other day about the difference between 'discernment' and 'judgment'. The conclusion that was drawn was that the former is intuitive and the latter is 'of the mind'. |
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Post by tathagata on Aug 31, 2011 2:29:19 GMT -5
I dont have any issue with your practice, but I question how you see the eventual outcome of the practice.... . Well....try it for 30 years and find out. ;D LOL enigma...or you could try effortlessness for 100 years and never get there lmao |
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