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Post by enigma on Aug 30, 2011 16:07:35 GMT -5
In my opinion the practices, approaches and strategies dont come to an end, they simply become as natural to us as breathing. As the core belief in a practicer is released, the practices become part of our being. In a way, they become unconscious in the same way that an expert footballer (soccer!) can juggle a ball effortlessly. We become the practices in action. So the practices are still practiced, yet without any depth of attachment to a goal. Understanding is still found, compassion still cultivated, gratitude still bestowed, love still offered, emotions still honoured and allowed....yet it all happens very spontaneously. Often I think we seek to actually bring an end to the practices themselves because we think that that is what will bring us peace, but I just dont think the path unfolds like that, and actually I dont think the ending of practices is required in order that we can be at peace. Instead we achieve mastery of the practices and respond intelligently to each situation as it arises. The notion that one can achieve mastery over a practice is perhaps the greatest risk of engaging in practices, as it reinforces the sense of personal doership and control, which is actually what needs to be released. Becoming conscious is another kettle of fish of a different color. |
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Post by andrew on Aug 30, 2011 16:15:08 GMT -5
In my opinion the practices, approaches and strategies dont come to an end, they simply become as natural to us as breathing. As the core belief in a practicer is released, the practices become part of our being. In a way, they become unconscious in the same way that an expert footballer (soccer!) can juggle a ball effortlessly. We become the practices in action. So the practices are still practiced, yet without any depth of attachment to a goal. Understanding is still found, compassion still cultivated, gratitude still bestowed, love still offered, emotions still honoured and allowed....yet it all happens very spontaneously. Often I think we seek to actually bring an end to the practices themselves because we think that that is what will bring us peace, but I just dont think the path unfolds like that, and actually I dont think the ending of practices is required in order that we can be at peace. Instead we achieve mastery of the practices and respond intelligently to each situation as it arises. The notion that one can achieve mastery over a practice is perhaps the greatest risk of engaging in practices, as it reinforces the sense of personal doership and control, which is actually what needs to be released. Becoming conscious is another kettle of fish of a different color. But mastery over a practice is achieved in the same way as a pianist masters scales and can eventually play them effortlessly and unconsciously. I personally wouldnt tend to recommend practices with the goal of being enlightened or self-realized or conscious, I would recommend mastering practices which enable us to feel good. Practicing is inevitable for all humans and we are all masters of some practices. Its just a case of WHAT practices are mastered that determines whether someone is at peace or not. |
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Post by andrew on Aug 30, 2011 16:19:39 GMT -5
The benefit of technique comes from doing it...not talking about it or thinking about it LOL...this technique, if you have the courage to try it, is a technique for stopping the autopilot of judgement...conditioned phenomena only arise automatically if you are letting that phenomena continue on autopilot...if you focus your awareness on something it cannot be on autopilot anymore Becuase being on autopilot is doing something unconciously...try being hyper focused on the thoughts arising in your mind...be really hyper focused on them...they will stop...if you stay hyper focused on the thoughts as they begin to arise they will arrest themselves and not form, they will die in their inception. In this state of hyper focus, hyper vigilence of your thoughts, the only way a thought can form is if you conciously will it to form and move it into being...but this is not unconcious thought...it is concious thought....the autopilot is not there. This technique is not concerned with thoughts...its concerned with value judgements...be hyper aware of judgments of anything and stop them...don't let them come into being either conciously or on autopilot....it will be difficult at first Becuase judgment is so engrained and habitualized...the goal is to stop judgement of EVERYTHING as being either good or bad, this includes the judgement of judgment....be aware and looking for the judgement that occurs in everything...including the judgement of judging itself...judgement comes in many forms...it can be active or passive...you can be actively judging and thinking with thoughts that something is good or bad, or you can be in a more passive judgement where you aren't necassarily thinking judgement thoughts, but are instead there is a feeling in the background that you either approve or condemn something...sometimes you just feel this in the background without even noticing...maybe you are watching a reality tv show and someone is doing something ridiculas and stupid...maybe you are not thinking to yourself that this person is ridiculas, but you are feeling it...there is a judgment running on the subject...be hyper focused and hyper aware of judgment and when you see it start to rise stop it and make it not exist...stop the thoughts of good or bad, stop the feeling of good or bad....but do it in everything...be aware of all judgements on everything and stop judgments....even on judgment, and especially on things you think you know and understand...it is very difficult, Becuase there will be many sacred cows that you will not want to withdraw judgment from, especially in your spiritual ideas and thoughts...there will be many ideas and thoughts that you will want to keep as good or bad...but be Commited/Attentive...no judgment on anything...even the Technique....if you are successful at ending all judgment inside and out you will become limitlessness...by and by as you get better at this technique all judgments will disappear. Everything that arises in your awareness just is...it is neither good or bad with no judgment happening...it just is....don't parse words...just do the Technique and see for yourself ;-) This is one technique...there are many...but try this one ivory..commit to it without judgment. I should mention that I'm the official 'practice curmudgeon' here, though I don't deny the appropriateness of some practices, I just see the ultimate futility of them. Practices can teach us that. I'm very much in favor of noticing unconscious processes which is essentially effortless and I'm hard pressed to call a practice, I would say thats a practice. |
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Post by tathagata on Aug 30, 2011 16:40:08 GMT -5
Enigma...why be for or against anything?...I.e for or against practice or techniques or no techniques...or anything else?
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Post by tathagata on Aug 30, 2011 16:42:23 GMT -5
I should mention that I'm the official 'practice curmudgeon' here, though I don't deny the appropriateness of some practices, I just see the ultimate futility of them. Practices can teach us that. I'm very much in favor of noticing unconscious processes which is essentially effortless and I'm hard pressed to call a practice, I would say thats a practice. LOL...true dat Andrew....the practice of no practice LOL. |
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Post by ivory on Aug 30, 2011 17:53:25 GMT -5
I think the difference between thagathas method of practice amd enigmas is that thagathas puts the seeker behind the wheel. That seeker is the efforter, the resistor, the suppressor, the denier. By dropping back into the witness position and watching, it starts to become clear that the efforter is the obstacle (on more and more subtle levels). From this point forth its an entirely different process. Namely surrender, allowance, acceptance, and trust.
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Post by tathagata on Aug 30, 2011 18:57:24 GMT -5
Remove all judgment..including the judgment of the seeker and witnesser and your mind...and see if a seeker remains...the starting place is with a particular part of the seeker/illusion that can be undone...the ending place is the place where ends end LOL.
In disclosure....any technique I describe here is for that person in that place...its not a universal technique that is right for every reader in every place...that doesn't mean that a technique isn't right for more than one person...it just means its not automatically right for you...what system or no system is right for everyone in every situation...
It's just a recommendation...an invitation to try it.
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Post by tathagata on Aug 30, 2011 19:48:14 GMT -5
Ivory, I agree with what you've been saying. Judgment arises out of beliefs, fears, desires and such in the conditioning, and the end result appears in conscious awareness. At that point there can only be the recognition that what is being experienced is unwanted and attention turned away from it repeatedly, which does nothing to alter the conditioning beyond the simple recognition, so I say notice it and let it be, or start excavating and find out if the judgment has any basis in reality. If the excavating approach is engaged, there may be insights that undermine the foundation of the judgment since it really is an illusion, and if this is clear, the judging thoughts simply cease to arise. For example, if it is seen that volition is an illusion, judgment of self and other has no basis and cannot be indulged in seriously as there is no-one to blame. there is a whole lot of hypothisizing and conjecture about what a technique might or might not do...what benefit it might have...and where the technique originates from..why it might be good or not good etc.......why not just try it? |
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Post by tathagata on Aug 30, 2011 19:53:28 GMT -5
I think the difference between thagathas method of practice amd enigmas is that thagathas puts the seeker behind the wheel. That seeker is the efforter, the resistor, the suppressor, the denier. By dropping back into the witness position and watching, it starts to become clear that the efforter is the obstacle (on more and more subtle levels). From this point forth its an entirely different process. Namely surrender, allowance, acceptance, and trust. its a lot of opinionating and conjecturing and defining of something you havent tried or had experience with....why not just try it and make an informed assesment from experience instead of hypothisis? Do it or dont do it...but if you are going to do it I recomend not half assing it...give it your total attention lol. |
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Post by tathagata on Aug 30, 2011 20:05:45 GMT -5
Spiritual seeking in any other way besides a meditation practice that undoes you is only philosophy...philosophy increases and refines understanding and increases dilusion....meditation done properly with no goal or motive undoes it....you can resist or postpone or delay with conjecture and hypothisis all you want...but your ego is only using your intellect to trick you into surviving by delaying for a bit longer.
you are a guy standing on the edge of a cliff ready to dive into the water below, but you are just standing there saying lets think about this a little bit...lets talk about it a little bit.
you are a guy in a therapy group at a rehab center who does'nt really want to give up his drug so he sits there saying to himself this is stupid, they dont know what they are doing, and this is not for me....I will quit on my own when I'm ready and I will do it in a smarter way than this lol
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Post by tathagata on Aug 30, 2011 20:21:56 GMT -5
without practice its just a bunch of alcoholics sitting at a bar talking about how trying to be sober will make you drunker, and trying to explain to each other what being sober really is...and talking about why one rehab clinic is better than another and rating them and going on and on and on all the while ordering another round and drinking away lol
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Post by tathagata on Aug 30, 2011 20:55:25 GMT -5
Do you guys think enlightenment doesnt exist lol...that what buddha, and bodhidharma, and osho, and shri aurobindo, and eckert tolle, and maharshi, and all those guys throughout history that were all saying the same things was all just a roose to pull one over on ya...if ya believe that then why are ya here lol...do ya think enlightenment is just a make believe?....and that no one before you was ever enlightened lol?...and whats with this hate and distain for the word enlightenment lol...the central goal of almost everyone here on a regular basis is enlightenment, this distain for the word and the idea is a kind of self loathing, a kind of self incrimination...
show me any great teacher in history that had an enduring legacy that said you will get there without some sort of practice that lifts the veil of illusion?...show me one that actually applied that in how he helped the people around them lift the veil...we live in a time where the human intellect has grown to a level that you can actually intllectualize enlightenment and have some insight into what it is like to some degree....our minds on average have evolved and progressed to this level...but insight and hypothisis and conjecture will never lead you to experience...I am reminded of that scene in Good Will Hunting where the character played by robin Williams is sitting in the park with Matt Damon and he talks about how smart he is but that no matter how much he new about love and war and living intellectually he would never know what it was actually like until he experienced it...he can give an accurate depiction...but he could never know what its actually like...keen conjecture can depict an accurate picture of something in your mind that will satisfy you, but only if you are too afraid to have the experience itself....this is whats happened in the modern society of entertainment....people are perfectly satisfied watching an imax movy about scuba diving or mountain climbing instead of going scuba diving or mountain climbing....techniques are not for conjecture they are for doing....you cannot hurt yourself by trying a technique with some commitment and attentiveness for a while...itsa technique not a warzone...if the technique doesnt fit try a differant one...thinking your way to enlightenment is never ever going to happen...gaining insights is never ever going to get you there....
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Post by tathagata on Aug 30, 2011 21:19:46 GMT -5
I hate to break it to you...but most of you guys are not one inch closer to enlightenment than the first step you took years ago...all your insights and understandings and spiritual experiences have not moved you one inch closer than you were...there are maybe two or three people here that are enlightened, and only one that was really on the cusp with another comming close to the cusp...I have only seen one guy that was really hitting rock bottom and about to achieve something, and he left presumably to let himself slip away from himself...no one else is close...too much minding and understanding and holding on to yourself and what amounts to philosophical understanding...not enough of ready to let go and not enough of ready to let your self die....becuase make no mistake about it...enlightenment is a death...you will come back from the dead and go take a good healthy crap afterwards...but you gotta die first...you gotta give your whole self up
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Post by ivory on Aug 30, 2011 21:40:45 GMT -5
Sweet, I look forward to that. I love to poop!
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Post by tathagata on Aug 30, 2011 22:04:57 GMT -5
LOL.
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