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Post by tathagata on Aug 29, 2011 22:46:24 GMT -5
It's the red flag thing thats a little funny...are there guidelines to this?....I didn't get the memo in the buddha welcome package LOL...what rules apply to which situations in which moments?...Since you know what a Buddha is supposed to do or how they are supposed to be what are the rules, I will gladly follow them in this moment if it will help undo you, but I cannot promise I will follow them in the next moment LOL?....How am I supposed to follow the rules when the would be rule follower doesn't plan from one moment to the next or hold on to anything from one moment to the next LOL.
I can't promise that I will never say I am a guru real or not...hard to keep promises these days LOL...but in this moment guru or not guru is decided by the seeker...only a guru that is a guru claims he is a guru?...gurus are made by seekers...not gurus aren't they?
Trust? Am I auditioning for entry into the club?...is it too late to start trying for real...do I have to tryout for more than a moment? :- )
I am still...there is movement...I am still...what else is there that is more worth doing or being than this?...no need for apologies at any point...I am not offended or wronged...the wind and clouds do not offend the sky, nor are they seperate from it.
You are a beautiful thinker and a great intellect, and your insights are keen, if I were going to give you a practice to try it would be to spend a few days conciously withdrawing judgement from every object, person (including yourself), thought, activity, or paragraph you read....conciously decide that nothing is good or bad, pure or inpure, righteous or corrupted....taken far enough, this practice alone can uncover enlightement/samadhi.
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Post by ivory on Aug 29, 2011 23:59:21 GMT -5
What I meant by red flag was being suspicious of the truthfulness and accuracy of what you were saying. It makes no difference, but perhaps you can clarify a couple things?
First of all, how does one withdraw judgement? How is this practice actually done?
So are you saying this is a thinking process?
At the moment of enlightenment, what is uncovered, how is it realized, and who realizes it?
In one of your other posts you mentioned something like a temporary enlightenment and a permanent enlightenment (I may be misquoting you), what do you mean by that?
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Post by runstill on Aug 30, 2011 0:32:09 GMT -5
Well for some of us you r auditioning for our trust and you will be poked but it won't hurt much :- )
I am thoroughly enjoying your post's and look forward to many more.
Cheers
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Post by tathagata on Aug 30, 2011 1:52:33 GMT -5
The Technique: Withdraw all value judgments. Don't allow yourself to say think or feel that anything is good or bad....withdraw judgment from everything... don't withdraw your perception and shut the world out...look at everything and read everything and experience everything as you normally would....but don't judge it as good or bad....withdraw all conception of these things...there is no good or bad...they do not exist...in your world let these be concepts that were never created....don't just get rid of the judgment thoughts...pay close attention and get rid of the judgment feeling too...often you can condemn or approve of something without even being aware of it...it is passive condemnation or approval....eliminate all of it...good and bad never existed.
This is a very difficult technique because judgment comes automatically and it is deeply ingrained, but keep with it...tie a string on your finger to remind yourself, but if you catch yourself forgetting the technique don't judge yourself for it as having done something good or bad....be ignorant of the concepts of good or bad. Descriptions of natural facts are OK in this technique, but value judgments don't exist...for example...she is overweight and the other is thin, neither of these are good or bad because good or bad do not exist....if you do this technique long enough with enough diligence all divisions internal and external disappear.
More on the other questions later.
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Post by tathagata on Aug 30, 2011 2:21:32 GMT -5
Ahh runstill...you say that to all the tathagatas don't you? lol
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Post by ivory on Aug 30, 2011 3:11:00 GMT -5
The Technique: Withdraw all value judgments. Don't allow yourself to say think or feel that anything is good or bad....withdraw judgment from everything... don't withdraw your perception and shut the world out...look at everything and read everything and experience everything as you normally would....but don't judge it as good or bad....withdraw all conception of these things...there is no good or bad...they do not exist...in your world let these be concepts that were never created....don't just get rid of the judgment thoughts...pay close attention and get rid of the judgment feeling too...often you can condemn or approve of something without even being aware of it...it is passive condemnation or approval....eliminate all of it...good and bad never existed. I was originally going to ask you, "Do you see how withdraw judgement can be misinterpreted by this sort of instruction?" Terms like drop, withdraw, don't, etc lead to the belief, "I shouldn't be judging," which results in the repression of judgement. Without conscious awareness of judgement, there will be no healing. For judgement to be conscious, it has to be allowed to arise. This is a very difficult technique because judgment comes automatically and it is deeply ingrained, but keep with it... This is what I was hoping you would say. In my experience, all thought and emotion are conditioned phenomena that arise automatically. |
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jazz
Full Member
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Post by jazz on Aug 30, 2011 6:16:13 GMT -5
The Technique: Withdraw all value judgments. Don't allow yourself to say think or feel that anything is good or bad....withdraw judgment from everything... don't withdraw your perception and shut the world out...look at everything and read everything and experience everything as you normally would....but don't judge it as good or bad....withdraw all conception of these things...there is no good or bad...they do not exist...in your world let these be concepts that were never created....don't just get rid of the judgment thoughts...pay close attention and get rid of the judgment feeling too...often you can condemn or approve of something without even being aware of it...it is passive condemnation or approval....eliminate all of it...good and bad never existed. I was originally going to ask you, "Do you see how withdraw judgement can be misinterpreted by this sort of instruction?" Terms like drop, withdraw, don't, etc lead to the belief, "I shouldn't be judging," which results in the repression of judgement. Without conscious awareness of judgement, there will be no healing. For judgement to be conscious, it has to be allowed to arise. This is a very difficult technique because judgment comes automatically and it is deeply ingrained, but keep with it... This is what I was hoping you would say. In my experience, all thought and emotion are conditioned phenomena that arise automatically. So what is it that actually changes the conditioning? The seeing? or the intent to change ? |
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Post by ivory on Aug 30, 2011 12:40:46 GMT -5
Hey Jazz, I think they both go hand in hand actually. Although, I'd swap the word "change" with "be honest and get the bottom of truth" (or the willingness to free oneself of concepts). I don't think that anyone or anything changes, it is just seen that conditioning is nothing more than an unchallenged set of assumptions with no grounding in truth.
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Post by tathagata on Aug 30, 2011 14:21:59 GMT -5
The Technique: Withdraw all value judgments. Don't allow yourself to say think or feel that anything is good or bad....withdraw judgment from everything... don't withdraw your perception and shut the world out...look at everything and read everything and experience everything as you normally would....but don't judge it as good or bad....withdraw all conception of these things...there is no good or bad...they do not exist...in your world let these be concepts that were never created....don't just get rid of the judgment thoughts...pay close attention and get rid of the judgment feeling too...often you can condemn or approve of something without even being aware of it...it is passive condemnation or approval....eliminate all of it...good and bad never existed. I was originally going to ask you, "Do you see how withdraw judgement can be misinterpreted by this sort of instruction?" Terms like drop, withdraw, don't, etc lead to the belief, "I shouldn't be judging," which results in the repression of judgement. Without conscious awareness of judgement, there will be no healing. For judgement to be conscious, it has to be allowed to arise. This is a very difficult technique because judgment comes automatically and it is deeply ingrained, but keep with it... This is what I was hoping you would say. In my experience, all thought and emotion are conditioned phenomena that arise automatically. The benefit of technique comes from doing it...not talking about it or thinking about it LOL...this technique, if you have the courage to try it, is a technique for stopping the autopilot of judgement...conditioned phenomena only arise automatically if you are letting that phenomena continue on autopilot...if you focus your awareness on something it cannot be on autopilot anymore Becuase being on autopilot is doing something unconciously...try being hyper focused on the thoughts arising in your mind...be really hyper focused on them...they will stop...if you stay hyper focused on the thoughts as they begin to arise they will arrest themselves and not form, they will die in their inception. In this state of hyper focus, hyper vigilence of your thoughts, the only way a thought can form is if you conciously will it to form and move it into being...but this is not unconcious thought...it is concious thought....the autopilot is not there. This technique is not concerned with thoughts...its concerned with value judgements...be hyper aware of judgments of anything and stop them...don't let them come into being either conciously or on autopilot....it will be difficult at first Becuase judgment is so engrained and habitualized...the goal is to stop judgement of EVERYTHING as being either good or bad, this includes the judgement of judgment....be aware and looking for the judgement that occurs in everything...including the judgement of judging itself...judgement comes in many forms...it can be active or passive...you can be actively judging and thinking with thoughts that something is good or bad, or you can be in a more passive judgement where you aren't necassarily thinking judgement thoughts, but are instead there is a feeling in the background that you either approve or condemn something...sometimes you just feel this in the background without even noticing...maybe you are watching a reality tv show and someone is doing something ridiculas and stupid...maybe you are not thinking to yourself that this person is ridiculas, but you are feeling it...there is a judgment running on the subject...be hyper focused and hyper aware of judgment and when you see it start to rise stop it and make it not exist...stop the thoughts of good or bad, stop the feeling of good or bad....but do it in everything...be aware of all judgements on everything and stop judgments....even on judgment, and especially on things you think you know and understand...it is very difficult, Becuase there will be many sacred cows that you will not want to withdraw judgment from, especially in your spiritual ideas and thoughts...there will be many ideas and thoughts that you will want to keep as good or bad...but be Commited/Attentive...no judgment on anything...even the Technique....if you are successful at ending all judgment inside and out you will become limitlessness...by and by as you get better at this technique all judgments will disappear. Everything that arises in your awareness just is...it is neither good or bad with no judgment happening...it just is....don't parse words...just do the Technique and see for yourself ;-) This is one technique...there are many...but try this one ivory..commit to it without judgment. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 30, 2011 15:16:09 GMT -5
Ivory, I agree with what you've been saying. Judgment arises out of beliefs, fears, desires and such in the conditioning, and the end result appears in conscious awareness. At that point there can only be the recognition that what is being experienced is unwanted and attention turned away from it repeatedly, which does nothing to alter the conditioning beyond the simple recognition, so I say notice it and let it be, or start excavating and find out if the judgment has any basis in reality.
If the excavating approach is engaged, there may be insights that undermine the foundation of the judgment since it really is an illusion, and if this is clear, the judging thoughts simply cease to arise. For example, if it is seen that volition is an illusion, judgment of self and other has no basis and cannot be indulged in seriously as there is no-one to blame.
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Post by vacant on Aug 30, 2011 15:17:57 GMT -5
Tathagata, you are obviously well versed in many techniques (to find oneself, I gather). I have often had ravenous appetite for techniques and i'm probably not immune to that kind of hunger, but at the moment I cannot help feeling that techniques are, by nature, a recipe to get somewhere or achieve a planned objective, and that in itself appears a lot like the seeker's fundamental "error". Like urging to take destiny in one's own hands? Doomed to failure? Barking up the wrong tree?
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Post by tathagata on Aug 30, 2011 15:22:55 GMT -5
Tathagata, you are obviously well versed in many techniques (to find oneself, I gather). I have often had ravenous appetite for techniques and i'm probably not immune to that kind of hunger, but at the moment I cannot help feeling that techniques are, by nature, a recipe to get somewhere or achieve a planned objective, and that in itself appears a lot like the seeker's fundamental "error". Like urging to take destiny in one's own hands? Doomed to failure? Barking up the wrong tree? Techniques that are useful are there to undo...not to achieve something....it is true that in the end the searching itself can keep you in Maya...but this is becuase the searching is there...not becuase the Technique is there...meditation techniques are tools of deconstruction of imaginary Maya/Self....but here's the catch 22...doing the techniques that undo you and being a Commited practice oriented seeker is absolutely vital...until it isn't...how will you know that its time to stop...when you hit rock bottom and are ready to give up the last part of yourself...for the seeker the last part that remains after meditation has undone everything else but the seeking is the seeking...you will know when its time...rock bottom is rock bottom...if you think you are at rock bottom you probably aren't....when you are at rock bottom you know...there isn't anything that can take you to rock bottom in your searching...nothing you can do to get there...when its time for you its time...the best you can do is to use techniques that remove Maya so that you are as sober and awake as you can be from the illusions of ourselves, Becuase while you are in the illusion of your own story you will never hit this rock bottom. |
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Post by enigma on Aug 30, 2011 15:38:50 GMT -5
I was originally going to ask you, "Do you see how withdraw judgement can be misinterpreted by this sort of instruction?" Terms like drop, withdraw, don't, etc lead to the belief, "I shouldn't be judging," which results in the repression of judgement. Without conscious awareness of judgement, there will be no healing. For judgement to be conscious, it has to be allowed to arise. This is what I was hoping you would say. In my experience, all thought and emotion are conditioned phenomena that arise automatically. The benefit of technique comes from doing it...not talking about it or thinking about it LOL...this technique, if you have the courage to try it, is a technique for stopping the autopilot of judgement...conditioned phenomena only arise automatically if you are letting that phenomena continue on autopilot...if you focus your awareness on something it cannot be on autopilot anymore Becuase being on autopilot is doing something unconciously...try being hyper focused on the thoughts arising in your mind...be really hyper focused on them...they will stop...if you stay hyper focused on the thoughts as they begin to arise they will arrest themselves and not form, they will die in their inception. In this state of hyper focus, hyper vigilence of your thoughts, the only way a thought can form is if you conciously will it to form and move it into being...but this is not unconcious thought...it is concious thought....the autopilot is not there. This technique is not concerned with thoughts...its concerned with value judgements...be hyper aware of judgments of anything and stop them...don't let them come into being either conciously or on autopilot....it will be difficult at first Becuase judgment is so engrained and habitualized...the goal is to stop judgement of EVERYTHING as being either good or bad, this includes the judgement of judgment....be aware and looking for the judgement that occurs in everything...including the judgement of judging itself...judgement comes in many forms...it can be active or passive...you can be actively judging and thinking with thoughts that something is good or bad, or you can be in a more passive judgement where you aren't necassarily thinking judgement thoughts, but are instead there is a feeling in the background that you either approve or condemn something...sometimes you just feel this in the background without even noticing...maybe you are watching a reality tv show and someone is doing something ridiculas and stupid...maybe you are not thinking to yourself that this person is ridiculas, but you are feeling it...there is a judgment running on the subject...be hyper focused and hyper aware of judgment and when you see it start to rise stop it and make it not exist...stop the thoughts of good or bad, stop the feeling of good or bad....but do it in everything...be aware of all judgements on everything and stop judgments....even on judgment, and especially on things you think you know and understand...it is very difficult, Becuase there will be many sacred cows that you will not want to withdraw judgment from, especially in your spiritual ideas and thoughts...there will be many ideas and thoughts that you will want to keep as good or bad...but be Commited/Attentive...no judgment on anything...even the Technique....if you are successful at ending all judgment inside and out you will become limitlessness...by and by as you get better at this technique all judgments will disappear. Everything that arises in your awareness just is...it is neither good or bad with no judgment happening...it just is....don't parse words...just do the Technique and see for yourself ;-) This is one technique...there are many...but try this one ivory..commit to it without judgment. I should mention that I'm the official 'practice curmudgeon' here, though I don't deny the appropriateness of some practices, I just see the ultimate futility of them. Practices can teach us that. I'm very much in favor of noticing unconscious processes which is essentially effortless and I'm hard pressed to call a practice, but for me it ends there and doesn't venture into control. The reason being 'hyper focused on thought' stops thoughts is that mind is hyper focused on the thought of watching for thoughts (hehe) which may create the illusion of a silent mind but it's no more silent than being hyper focused on the thought of murdering your employer. |
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Post by tathagata on Aug 30, 2011 15:49:18 GMT -5
The benefit of technique comes from doing it...not talking about it or thinking about it LOL...this technique, if you have the courage to try it, is a technique for stopping the autopilot of judgement...conditioned phenomena only arise automatically if you are letting that phenomena continue on autopilot...if you focus your awareness on something it cannot be on autopilot anymore Becuase being on autopilot is doing something unconciously...try being hyper focused on the thoughts arising in your mind...be really hyper focused on them...they will stop...if you stay hyper focused on the thoughts as they begin to arise they will arrest themselves and not form, they will die in their inception. In this state of hyper focus, hyper vigilence of your thoughts, the only way a thought can form is if you conciously will it to form and move it into being...but this is not unconcious thought...it is concious thought....the autopilot is not there. This technique is not concerned with thoughts...its concerned with value judgements...be hyper aware of judgments of anything and stop them...don't let them come into being either conciously or on autopilot....it will be difficult at first Becuase judgment is so engrained and habitualized...the goal is to stop judgement of EVERYTHING as being either good or bad, this includes the judgement of judgment....be aware and looking for the judgement that occurs in everything...including the judgement of judging itself...judgement comes in many forms...it can be active or passive...you can be actively judging and thinking with thoughts that something is good or bad, or you can be in a more passive judgement where you aren't necassarily thinking judgement thoughts, but are instead there is a feeling in the background that you either approve or condemn something...sometimes you just feel this in the background without even noticing...maybe you are watching a reality tv show and someone is doing something ridiculas and stupid...maybe you are not thinking to yourself that this person is ridiculas, but you are feeling it...there is a judgment running on the subject...be hyper focused and hyper aware of judgment and when you see it start to rise stop it and make it not exist...stop the thoughts of good or bad, stop the feeling of good or bad....but do it in everything...be aware of all judgements on everything and stop judgments....even on judgment, and especially on things you think you know and understand...it is very difficult, Becuase there will be many sacred cows that you will not want to withdraw judgment from, especially in your spiritual ideas and thoughts...there will be many ideas and thoughts that you will want to keep as good or bad...but be Commited/Attentive...no judgment on anything...even the Technique....if you are successful at ending all judgment inside and out you will become limitlessness...by and by as you get better at this technique all judgments will disappear. Everything that arises in your awareness just is...it is neither good or bad with no judgment happening...it just is....don't parse words...just do the Technique and see for yourself ;-) This is one technique...there are many...but try this one ivory..commit to it without judgment. I should mention that I'm the official 'practice curmudgeon' here, though I don't deny the appropriateness of some practices, I just see the ultimate futility of them. Practices can teach us that. I'm very much in favor of noticing unconscious processes which is essentially effortless and I'm hard pressed to call a practice, but for me it ends there and doesn't venture into control. The reason being 'hyper focused on thought' stops thoughts is that mind is hyper focused on the thought of watching for thoughts (hehe) which may create the illusion of a silent mind but it's no more silent than being hyper focused on the thought of murdering your employer. Agreed...and see my previous post....stooping thought is not silence or enlightement or stillness etc...Becuase you are still doing being something...you are still Minding....but it helps to stop thought or stop judgment or to do any of the other techniques, Becuase it creates a space in Maya where it can happen...techniques are not samadhi, nor are their affects...but they break the chain of illusion enough to have a space for them. |
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Post by andrew on Aug 30, 2011 15:50:35 GMT -5
In my opinion the practices, approaches and strategies dont come to an end, they simply become as natural to us as breathing. As the core belief in a practicer is released, the practices become part of our being. In a way, they become unconscious in the same way that an expert footballer (soccer!) can juggle a ball effortlessly. We become the practices in action. So the practices are still practiced, yet without any depth of attachment to a goal. Understanding is still found, compassion still cultivated, gratitude still bestowed, love still offered, emotions still honoured and allowed....yet it all happens very spontaneously. Often I think we seek to actually bring an end to the practices themselves because we think that that is what will bring us peace, but I just dont think the path unfolds like that, and actually I dont think the ending of practices is required in order that we can be at peace. Instead we achieve mastery of the practices and respond intelligently to each situation as it arises.
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