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Post by tathagata on Sept 2, 2011 13:03:48 GMT -5
Bob isn't your book on effortlessness?...also...if the ego is gone why don't you rate yourself in the rating page...are you rated in there...with enlightenment ego and planning goes away..so it should be no problem to put Bob in there...there is no conflict of interest if there is no interest/ego....are you enlightened Bob?...not that it matters...are things are equal and the same...that does beg the question though...why the rating system...how many stars will I get...how many will you get? There's a ratings page?  Where? Spiritualteachers.org. at the top press on the ratings icon. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 2, 2011 14:25:20 GMT -5
There's a ratings page? Where? Spiritualteachers.org. at the top press on the ratings icon. HA! I didn't even know there was a parent website to this forum. Hehe. |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 2, 2011 14:46:03 GMT -5
Bob isn't your book on effortlessness?...also...if the ego is gone why don't you rate yourself in the rating page...are you rated in there...with enlightenment ego and planning goes away..so it should be no problem to put Bob in there...there is no conflict of interest if there is no interest/ego....are you enlightened Bob?...not that it matters...are things are equal and the same...that does beg the question though...why the rating system...how many stars will I get...how many will you get? Ha ha, nope, the book I wrote is not about effortlessness. It a humorous account of all the crazy kinds of stuff that can happen to someone on this path. LOL. This website was set up by Shawn Nevins, and he is the one who picks the people on the ratings page, and he is the one who rates them. He was a student of Richard Rose, but I'm not sure exactly where his head is now. He writes poetry, is involved with the TAT foundation, edits the TAT newsletter, and has produced a film on non-duality. Am I enlightened? Well, I certainly hope not! Then I might have to live up to all kinds of wild expectations. LOL. On a more serious note, to become enlightened there would have to be someone who could become enlightened, and there isn't. There's only oneness, or, as we sometimes say here, "It's turtles all the way down." This is a fun website because it attracts lots of folks who are seriously interested in finding the truth as well as many folks who've already found the truth. No matter how much one has already discovered there is always more to learn, so welcome to the party. The price of admission is nothing more than a good sense of humor. Cheers. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 2, 2011 14:59:40 GMT -5
This is a fun website because it attracts lots of folks who are seriously interested in finding the truth as well as many folks who've already found the truth. No matter how much one has already discovered there is always more to learn, so welcome to the party. The price of admission is nothing more than a good sense of humor. Cheers. I also appreciate the humor here, as well as the openness, sincerity and maturity of the folks here. I like the sense that we're all just poking around in this together without poking any "I's" out. Hehe. |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 2, 2011 15:51:10 GMT -5
It is a nice place to pull up a stool.
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Post by enigma on Sept 2, 2011 15:56:41 GMT -5
And you're most welcome here, Tath.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 2, 2011 16:32:14 GMT -5
Thanks enigma...nothing wrong with a good poke in "I" now and then LOL...it might be useful to sit quietly with one another and randomly poke each other in the eye...;-)
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Post by enigma on Sept 2, 2011 16:56:23 GMT -5
Thanks enigma...nothing wrong with a good poke in "I" now and then LOL...it might be useful to sit quietly with one another and randomly poke each other in the eye...;-) Sounds like a blast.  |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 2, 2011 16:58:29 GMT -5
Am I enlightened? Well, I certainly hope not! Then I might have to live up to all kinds of wild expectations. LOL. On a more serious note, to become enlightened there would have to be someone who could become enlightened, and there isn't. There's only oneness, or, as we sometimes say here, "It's turtles all the way down." Haha...come on in under the waves zendancer...the waters fine and your already in up to your neck friend LOL. Expecters try to place the expectations...but if you try to hang those coats in my coat closet, or Tolle's, or acewall's, or Osho's, or Guatama's coat closet, you might find there's no hook to hang it on Lmao....no floor either....putting aside oneness and seperateness be limitless unlimitlessness...and then put that aside too LOL. |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 2, 2011 17:07:50 GMT -5
What happens when two buddhas meet on the road? They slap each other in the face and continue on there way.
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Post by Peter on Sept 3, 2011 4:05:32 GMT -5
Hi T. After replying to your encouragement to posters to post, I checked back over your previous posts and note that you've been trying to position yourself as a teacher - giving Enigma advice that he clearly feels he doesn't need, for example. I have to admit that I'm having a "Johhny-come-lately joined last month and is trying to take over" reaction to you. It's the "trying" that bothers me. Enigma seems to post just effortlessly, and Zendancer was made staff so I don't feel any reaction there. After the penny dropped in 1999, I was mad to teach, so I know what that feels like. Pity the poor people who were around me at that time. Fortunately, things calmed down pretty soon afterwards, and life became ordinary again. Please re-read what you've written to Enigma and ask yourself where all of this judgmentalness and authoritarianism is coming from. Your confidence is now spilling over into self-righteousness. Seconded. And I note that you seem to have side-stepped Zendacer's comments here. Is that not so? I was going to ask you about your experience and I was happy to see that you did post about that in this thread. You said "it" happened after 20 years of effort - but when was that? Recently? I also note that you're now recommending "Attending to the Actual" does this mean that you've become a recognised student of Zendancer (does he do certificates?), or are you just taking his advice and appropriating it as your own? Best Wishes, Peter |
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Post by unveilable on Sept 3, 2011 5:33:47 GMT -5
For the past few weeks I have enjoyed a fairly stable intimacy with something akin to beingness. This awareness of beingness was held simultaneously with the routines of my day. Sure I would stray off but I effortlessly brought myself back to this awareness.
Coincidentally this felt sense of Home has largely vanished at the same time that I decided I was not doing enough to get to a ‘there’. I’ve never been more distracted. It’s a little sad and frustrating but I have infinite faith in the momentum that has been observed.
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Post by unveilable on Sept 3, 2011 6:06:22 GMT -5
On a side note I have really enjoyed reading this thread. I found it interesting on so many different levels but mostly I was struck by how often we all pretend that our words are real. This brought up a kind of futility that I expressed in a little story.
MSOTWB
For the caterfly, butterpillar and the space between descend with the dripping dew of a milk and honey moon onto a lotus held by the hand of Maya. Down Down is said. Maya’s cup begins to overflow and soon all cascade like a pool of rose water Down Down onto the Old Oak where leaves are taught the ways of thought and feeling.
At the foot of Old Oak stands Red Frog who looks up with big sky eyes and exclaims “What fun is this fluid life if it is not spun like cotton candy?” To which the leaves of the proud old tree replied “Down, Down, you must go further”. Suddenly, the caterfly, butterpillar, all of space, the milk and honey of the moon, Maya, her lotus, Old Oak with her leaves and Red Frog fall to the very bottom of the rabbit hole. Rabbit looks up from his table and calmly adjusts his glasses. With a wiskered smile he pours tea for his new guests.
A fun evening was had by all as they laughed and told horror stories about tasting the mother sauce of the witches’ brew whose name is many. Well at least it was fun until the mime stopped by but THAT is another story…
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Post by tathagata on Sept 3, 2011 18:55:44 GMT -5
 Hi T. After replying to your encouragement to posters to post, I checked back over your previous posts and note that you've been trying to position yourself as a teacher - giving Enigma advice that he clearly feels he doesn't need, for example. I have to admit that I'm having a "Johhny-come-lately joined last month and is trying to take over" reaction to you. It's the "trying" that bothers me. Enigma seems to post just effortlessly, and Zendancer was made staff so I don't feel any reaction there. After the penny dropped in 1999, I was mad to teach, so I know what that feels like. Pity the poor people who were around me at that time. Fortunately, things calmed down pretty soon afterwards, and life became ordinary again. Please re-read what you've written to Enigma and ask yourself where all of this judgmentalness and authoritarianism is coming from. Your confidence is now spilling over into self-righteousness. Seconded. And I note that you seem to have side-stepped Zendacer's comments here. Is that not so? I was going to ask you about your experience and I was happy to see that you did post about that in this thread. You said "it" happened after 20 years of effort - but when was that? Recently? I also note that you're now recommending "Attending to the Actual" does this mean that you've become a recognised student of Zendancer (does he do certificates?), or are you just taking his advice and appropriating it as your own? Best Wishes, Peter All reactions...no matter what they are...come from inside you, not from what someone else has said. I am not here to teach or acquire students. I am here Becuase I am here. Try a writing experiment where you sit and write every thought that randomly appears in your head...at first random gibberish will come out...but if someone asks you a question...and then you let thoughts arise that are comming from pure conciousness and not the ideas you already have you will be amazed at what you write...after you are done review and see if effort was used. Attending the actual is not a new technique or zendancers technique...it has been used throughout the centuries and the oldest written record of it is at least 5000 years old...there are also many other techniques...the reason there are many other techniques is that there is no one size fits all technique...techniques only belong to someone's ego when they claim it and others except that claim. The reason the conversation went in the direction it did with enigma is that in another thread ivory's judgment symptom of ego displayed itself by posting that if someone uses certain words there may be a problem...in a previous post in that thread I asked someone what they really were looking for...were they looking for a comfortable life...were they looking for bliss, nirvana, oneness...or were they looking for truth and enlightenment...that person answered the latter and my advice followed accordingly in the form of techniques to uncover what is there for themselves....later when ivory came to the thread i asked him what he wanted...and he responded with ."truth". I didn't tell him what truth was, I gave him a technique to find it himself...moreover I gave him a technique that was specific for him, be without judgment...this is one technique, one that would work for him, at least for now...there are many techniques, there is no one size fits all. Enigma then responded saying that no techniques and effortlessness are best...this is an approach that works for him and has made him happy and it is an approach that can make anyone happy...which is wonderful...and if a person wants happiness and contentment then it is wonderful advice, most people don't actually want enlightenment, how could they, they don't even know what it is, and there is no way to concieve of it....and as others have said, if you knew what it was you wouldn't want it...so enigma's advice to be effortless is wonderful advice...and enigma is eminently qualified to give this advice...he has mastered it, enigma doesn't need enlightenment, Becuase he is happy and content already...later zendancer came in with concerns that I was trying to upset the applecart and teach something...I wasn't "trying" to do anything. What I was doing was telling ivory that if he wanted happiness effortless was enough, but if he wanted truth ...if he wanted enlightenment, he was not at the time for effortlessness yet...ivory had said when asked that he was seeking truth...in other posts he acknowlegded that he had been posting at times to prove his spiritual knowledge to himself...this is a form of judgment...in the thread where we began our interaction he gave a lot of judgment based concerns over a particular selection of words...in short he was looking for truth but judgment was one of the main things covering the truth...the truth is always there, enlightenment is always there...people cover the truth from themselves in each there own unique way...I gave him a technique to pull back his unique cover...this technique is not there to make someone happy or to make them feel good...on the contrary it will often make you feel uncomfortable when it lifts the blanket and exposes some things you don't want to see...here is were effort is needed to keep using the technique until you have uncovered everything and nothing is left...not even nothingness. That technique was not my technique, just as attending the actual is not Bob's technique....I have no technique, I have no I...there are many techniques...no one size fits all...this technique was good for ivory, it may be good for others, but it may not as well...effortlessness is wonderful for someone who is seeking happiness and the end of suffering...effortlessness is the essence of no attachment, and many sutras have said accurately that all suffering is the result of effort and attachment...but while effortlessness and the end of suffering happen in enlightenment...they are not enlightenment...if you want enlightenment effort will not get you there, but you will not get there without effort...Becuase if you want enlightenment you have to be undone...not a little bit undone...completely undone...this takes effort, but in the end the undoing needs to be undone...if you have been effortless for more than one second and have not become enlightened then it is not time for effortlessness if you want enlightenment...if you want happiness and the end of suffering then right now is the time for effortlessness....enigma has achieved this, and this is what most people want...so he is immenantly qualified to teach people how to do this...but he is not enlightened...this is why he doesn't understand what enlightenment takes...to be absolutely clear, I am not saying enlightenment is better than happiness or that an enlightened nonbeing is any better than one who is not...in fact I am saying...if you knew what enlightenment was you wouldn't want it...just be happy...being happy does not require effort and in fact effort can keep you from being happy...so if you want happiness of effortlessness listen to to enigma, I advise you strongly to do so...also, if you want to know the oneness of your nature, and see your connection with everything that is, and be in and aware of that oneness then do as zendancer says, but this is not enlightenment either...enlightenment is no better or worse than this awareness or experiencing of this oneness...but this oneness is not enlightenment either...it is wonderful though, and enlightenment is not wonderful...enlightenment achieved has no merit whatsoever...it will answer all your questions though. I will be a big disturbance here, Becuase i am enlightment...not happiness or oneness...this forum has been largely about philisophizing and happiness/contentment seeking...for those seeking enlightenment the techniques I share will ultimately end happiness contentment oneness seperateness and philosophy, it will also undo theory, ideas, and conjecture that you may be clinging to for support...when I give a technique overwhelmingly people start hypothosizing as to the merits of the technique instead of just trying the technique...this is Becuase these hypothosis, theories, and conjecture provide a kind of support whereas doing the technique removes the support...so people cling to the conjecture and reject the technique...I am reminded of the first time I went scuba diving in and got very seasick..the instructor kept saying get in the water...this is the last thing I wanted to do while feeling so sick I thought I might die...he eventually pushed me in and instantly the seasickness stopped...for similar reasons when i see people making conjecture about a technique I say just try it...techniques are for doing, not talking. ...after a few times of interupting the supportive conjecture on the merits or failings of the technique and saying just try it or don't try it a big disturbance began...why do you think this was?....people cling to the things that support them...if someone says be supportless disturbances may happen.... So if you are looking for happiness, contentment, an experience of oneness reject me as you are doing Peter...I encourage this for what its worth to you...your happiness makes more happiness in the world and there is no higher thing than this in this world, if you are looking for effortless contentment enigma is a wonderful teacher, if you are looking for oneness zendancer is a wonderful teacher...if you want the answers to all your questions, if you want enlightenment ask an enlightened nonbeing being...if I am the one you ask I will not give you answers, no enlightened person has any answers to give regarding enlightenment, sometimes we will give an idea of it as way to tell you there is hope for having you questions answered, but really there is nothing that can be said accurately about enlightenment...I will give you a technique though...I will give you advise on the application of the technique that is appropriete for you in that moment...and that advice is not designed to lead you to happiness or contentment or oneness...nor is it there to lead you to seperateness or unhappiness...it is designed to point you in the right direction of uncovering the answer that is already there inside you, this does not make me a teacher or you a student, it just makes me the guy on the side of the road that you ask directions for, and that gives you some directions to where you are trying to go....but fair warning...along the way to uncovering the ultimate answer you may find things along the way that upset you, and you may find things along the way that bliss you out...those things are already inside you to, I did not and cannot put them there or remove them. It has been said that each person and each interaction is a mirror to yourself...if you see a person that you don't like, or If they are doing something you don't like, then it is really you just seeing something in that person that you don't like about yourself...the same holds true for people or their actions that you do like...this is why a Buddha named Jesus once said love your enemy...Becuase your enemy is a reflection of you...you can use this to know and love yourself more...you can use your enemy or actions other people do as a means to know love and except yourself more...in an enlightened person there is no they there, so they become a perfect mirror...when zendancer tells me to look in the mirror he is telling himself to look in the mirror...when ivory says I am posting here for self interest he is telling himself he is posting here for self interest.... Effortlessness will make you happy...attending the actual and many other techniques will make you aware of your oneness...but these are not enlightenment...and if you knew what enlightenment was you would not want it...that being said there are some people who want to end that mystery with experience, and others who can be content without ever entering into that mystery...both are of equal worth.
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Post by klaus on Sept 3, 2011 21:03:23 GMT -5
tathagata,
In two words or less?
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