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Post by tathagata on Sept 3, 2011 21:28:33 GMT -5
Unbeing Being
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Post by Peter on Sept 4, 2011 10:05:19 GMT -5
All reactions...no matter what they are...come from inside you, not from what someone else has said So you're saying that there really is a "me" and a "someone else"? That makes a change around here. No man is an island, Tathagata. It's not "me" or "you", it's in the iteraction of the "meness" and "youness" that the reaction arises. I am not here to teach or acquire students. Well you can say that. But as I receive your writing, you're coming over very clearly with a "Listen to me, I have ATTAINED" attitude. Obviously this is just my opinion, others may see it differently. What I see is a very full cup. As often happens when someone gets a challenge here, I see you have not responded to my question. So you're not actually paying much attention to what's being reflected back to you. Enigma made the same complaint; you're just not listening. And yet you seem very keen that I should listen to you? At length? Let me remind you of the question: I was going to ask you about your experience and I was happy to see that you did post about that in this thread. You said "it" happened after 20 years of effort - but when was that? Recently? Choosing the username " Tathagata" is something of a giveaway as to where your head is at. Still, it could have been worse. Could have been another "Swami". Attending the actual is not a new technique or zendancers technique...it has been used throughout the centuries and the oldest written record of it is at least 5000 years old Really? If you Google the phrase "Attending the Actual" the first two results are about Madonna attending an actual film premiere, and the 3rd one links to one of ZenDancer's posts on this board. 5 pages of results later I hadn't come across anything remotely relevant to any sort of spiritual development. So I'll call you on that then - where would I find this 5000 year old written record, or did you just make that up? Regards, Peter |
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Post by enigma on Sept 4, 2011 10:36:23 GMT -5
Really? If you Google the phrase "Attending the Actual" the first two results are about Madonna attending an actual film premiere Regards, Peter Well, that's it! That's where ZD got it. There's a 5000 year old tradition of attending actual premieres. ;D |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 4, 2011 12:21:20 GMT -5
Actually, I think that phrase came from a conversation with Enigma some time during the past year. I realized that it best-described the practice I had used most often over the last 25 years. The practice is certainly nothing new, but whether the phrase has been used in any significant way other than on this website, I don't know. I suspect that it's E's phrase and I simply started using it a lot, but for all I know it may be Madonna's. LOL. FWIW attending actual premieres sounds like just as much fun as attending the actual.
I've read hundreds of books on spirituality and most of the earliest spiritual writings, and I cannot remember reading the phrase ATA anywhere but here, so I think either E or Madonna should get credit for it.
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Post by ivory on Sept 4, 2011 13:15:07 GMT -5
effortlessness is wonderful for someone who is seeking happiness and the end of suffering...effortlessness is the essence of no attachment, and many sutras have said accurately that all suffering is the result of effort and attachment...but while effortlessness and the end of suffering happen in enlightenment...they are not enlightenment...if you want enlightenment effort will not get you there, but you will not get there without effort...Becuase if you want enlightenment you have to be undone...not a little bit undone...completely undone...this takes effort, but in the end the undoing needs to be undone...if you have been effortless for more than one second and have not become enlightened then it is not time for effortlessness if you want enlightenment...if you want happiness and the end of suffering then right now is the time for effortlessness....enigma has achieved this, and this is what most people want...so he is immenantly qualified to teach people how to do this...but he is not enlightened...this is why he doesn't understand what enlightenment takes...to be absolutely clear, I am not saying enlightenment is better than happiness or that an enlightened nonbeing is any better than one who is not...in fact I am saying...if you knew what enlightenment was you wouldn't want it...just be happy...being happy does not require effort and in fact effort can keep you from being happy...so if you want happiness of effortlessness listen to to enigma, I advise you strongly to do so I am just amazed at this post. Enigma has corrected you at least two times saying that he did not prescribe effortlessness, and that effortlessness was the result of realizing the futility of effort. He never said be effortless. To be effortless would still be effort, would it not? You may wonder why people are calling you out... It's because you aren't reading what others are saying, you are putting words into other people's mouths, and you are clearly very attached to your ideas (in fact, you display rather strong attachment to just about everything). There really is no point in me posting this. It's not like you'll actually read it. You will continue to see only what you want to see. |
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Post by Portto on Sept 4, 2011 14:50:41 GMT -5
Actually, I think that phrase came from a conversation with Enigma some time during the past year. I realized that it best-described the practice I had used most often over the last 25 years. The practice is certainly nothing new, but whether the phrase has been used in any significant way other than on this website, I don't know. I suspect that it's E's phrase and I simply started using it a lot, but for all I know it may be Madonna's. LOL. FWIW attending actual premieres sounds like just as much fun as attending the actual. I've read hundreds of books on spirituality and most of the earliest spiritual writings, and I cannot remember reading the phrase ATA anywhere but here, so I think either E or Madonna should get credit for it. This made me curious. The earliest "serious" occurrence that I could find belongs to Mansuit, posted on Feb 23, 2011.Edit: after some more search, I found that Zendancer started using "the actual" as a synonym for "Truth" since early 2010, and usually in conversations with Enigma. Also, phrases such as "attending to the actual" appear here and there. Is there anyone who wants to patent the phrase? ;D |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 4, 2011 15:03:52 GMT -5
Really? If you Google the phrase "Attending the Actual" the first two results are about Madonna attending an actual film premiere Regards, Peter Well, that's it! That's where ZD got it. There's a 5000 year old tradition of attending actual premieres. ;D There is nothing new under the sun... Even the phrase "Attending the actual has been used before...if the universe is infinate this means that just based on mathematical probability alone the phrase attending the actual has been used before.... However, this was not what I was saying...I was not commenting on the phrase, I was commenting on the technique. #78 of the 5000 year old list of meditation techniques called the vigyan bhairav tantra....and further discussed on page 728 of "the book of secrets" "Wherever your attention alights, at this very point, experience." A zen Monk named Bokuju once said: "This is the only meditation I know. While I eat, I eat. While I walk, I walk. And while I feel sleepy, I sleep. Whatsoever happens happens, I never interfere." This is the essence of "attending the actual"...or "wherever your attention alights, at this very point, experience"....wheever your attention alights attend it...dont interfere or attach to it "wherever your attention alights"...but be attentive...attend it. If you do this enough you will experience the experience...all of creation will be a mirror of you...and you will will be everything...you will see it clearly...if you keep going you will see that you are beyond the forms of this or that, or me and it...you will be attending the actual...and then when you are ready the attending will drop away and you will be enlightened. More on the rest in a bit...one at a time. |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 4, 2011 15:22:10 GMT -5
For those who remember the cigarette-man koan (about the man who is strongly attached to his idea of emptiness), here is a true "cigarette-man" story.
Several years ago a man found himself in a living hell. His existence was so nightmarish and horrific that it destroyed his previous identity and left him struggling to stay alive and stay sane. In the midst of this nightmare the man picked up a spiritual book, read a single sentence, and had a major awakening experience. Instantly he found peace and equanimity and lost all concern with his body's life or death. In the midst of a nightmare the man found himself free and unaffected by his surroundings.
Several months later the nightmare ended and the man was free to do whatever he wished. He then wrote a book about his life, experiences, and understanding. After his book was published, he began to give satsang and conduct meditation retreats, and soon acquired a large following.
As more and more people came to him for his teachings, he acquired and dispersed many new ideas. He began to see people in terms of their level of spiritual attainment, and he began ranking them accordingly. One person might be a 530 and another person might be a 480. He considered Jesus, The Buddha, and himself to be at 1000 and everyone else was somewhere between 0 and that level. As he became more attached this idea and a few other similar ideas, his followers began to dwindle. People who heard his teachings began to think that something wasn't quite right and that he didn't pass the guru smell-test.
After his following collapsed, which he attributed to people's "unwillingness to hear the truth" or "unreadiness to embrace the truth," he moved to a new location only a few hundred miles from my home. Carol and I had always been curious about this man, but we knew nothing about him other than what he had written in his book. We did not know what he was currently teaching.
Carol and our daughter decided to go visit the man's new retreat facility, which was a kind of spa with gourmet food. After they returned three days later, I asked them what had happened. Carol told me that the man had ridden up to the retreat facility on a motorcycle, introduced himself, dangled a crystal in front of them, and told her that she was at a spiritual level of 480 and our daughter was a level of 440. I asked, "Are you serious?" She laughed and assured me that she was and that she and our daughter were somewhat stunned. I told her that she should have grabbed the crystal, thrown it into the field, and asked, "What level is that?" She laughed and said that she had been too surprised to think of that.
A year later I went to the man's retreat center along with two chiropractors and their wives. The man did not bring out any crystals or talk much during the first day. He had a beautiful facility with great food and an idyllic medtitation site. I sat with him for three days and had a great time. I found him likable, kind, generous, and interesting, but not nearly as deep or as clear as many other teachers I had met. Some of his ideas were a bit wacky and he was very attached to his high level of attainment and his ability to accurately guage other people's level of attainment. He had a wonderful dog that I think was more enlightened than he was.
After I returned home, I sent him a thank you note for the retreat, and included a copy of my spiritual autobiography. A week later he called to tell me that although he had long quit reading spiritual books, he read mine and found it to be hysterically funny. He said, "I laughed more than I've laughed in many years." He then told me that my level of attainment was very high, much higher than various teachers I mentioned in the book. He implied that I was very close to Buddhahood, and that with the right teacher (guess who?) I could probably get there. I replied that I was amazed at his ability to rank people's attainment that he had never met (some of whom were dead). He did not detect my sarcasm and explained that is was due to his deep intuitive connection with Source. He did not remember that some of the levels he quoted varied significantly from what he had previously told me or other people. He even told me that my wife's attainment was now much greater than Gangaji's, a statement that later elicited enormous laughter from Carol.
The bottom line? He was a cigarette-man strongly attached to a new set of ideas that had replaced an earlier set of ideas. Here was a man who had had a huge awakening experience and experienced total freedom only to have his attainment eventually coopted by the mind.
Probably the best definition of enlightenment is "non-abidance in the mind." Enlightement is the realization that there is nothing to attain and no one separate who could attain it. About the only thing that one "gets" from enlightenment is the cessation of seeking.
The enlightened life is very ordinary. It is not special. It is sitting at McDonalds sipping a coffee, typing on a laptop, watching cars go by, listening to an angry father yelling at his young son, and thinking, "Lighten up Dad; the kid is only four years old." No past, no future, and no present. No one separate from the action. The truth is "just like this." It is very simple.
How do we teach the cigarette-man? He is very strong. No matter what we say he will hit us. He is right and everyone else is wrong. Only he knows the truth. Other teachers have lower levels of attainment than he does, so he will not listen to anything anyone else says. It's a pretty good koan, isn't it?
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Post by klaus on Sept 4, 2011 15:42:12 GMT -5
zendancer,
Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
Thank you.
And now for a cigarette.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 4, 2011 17:14:49 GMT -5
For those who remember the cigarette-man koan (about the man who is strongly attached to his idea of emptiness), here is a true "cigarette-man" story. Several years ago a man found himself in a living hell. His existence was so nightmarish and horrific that it destroyed his previous identity and left him struggling to stay alive and stay sane. In the midst of this nightmare the man picked up a spiritual book, read a single sentence, and had a major awakening experience. Instantly he found peace and equanimity and lost all concern with his body's life or death. In the midst of a nightmare the man found himself free and unaffected by his surroundings. Several months later the nightmare ended and the man was free to do whatever he wished. He then wrote a book about his life, experiences, and understanding. After his book was published, he began to give satsang and conduct meditation retreats, and soon acquired a large following. As more and more people came to him for his teachings, he acquired and dispersed many new ideas. He began to see people in terms of their level of spiritual attainment, and he began ranking them accordingly. One person might be a 530 and another person might be a 480. He considered Jesus, The Buddha, and himself to be at 1000 and everyone else was somewhere between 0 and that level. As he became more attached this idea and a few other similar ideas, his followers began to dwindle. People who heard his teachings began to think that something wasn't quite right and that he didn't pass the guru smell-test. After his following collapsed, which he attributed to people's "unwillingness to hear the truth" or "unreadiness to embrace the truth," he moved to a new location only a few hundred miles from my home. Carol and I had always been curious about this man, but we knew nothing about him other than what he had written in his book. We did not know what he was currently teaching. Carol and our daughter decided to go visit the man's new retreat facility, which was a kind of spa with gourmet food. After they returned three days later, I asked them what had happened. Carol told me that the man had ridden up to the retreat facility on a motorcycle, introduced himself, dangled a crystal in front of them, and told her that she was at a spiritual level of 480 and our daughter was a level of 440. I asked, "Are you serious?" She laughed and assured me that she was and that she and our daughter were somewhat stunned. I told her that she should have grabbed the crystal, thrown it into the field, and asked, "What level is that?" She laughed and said that she had been too surprised to think of that. A year later I went to the man's retreat center along with two chiropractors and their wives. The man did not bring out any crystals or talk much during the first day. He had a beautiful facility with great food and an idyllic medtitation site. I sat with him for three days and had a great time. I found him likable, kind, generous, and interesting, but not nearly as deep or as clear as many other teachers I had met. Some of his ideas were a bit wacky and he was very attached to his high level of attainment and his ability to accurately guage other people's level of attainment. He had a wonderful dog that I think was more enlightened than he was. After I returned home, I sent him a thank you note for the retreat, and included a copy of my spiritual autobiography. A week later he called to tell me that although he had long quit reading spiritual books, he read mine and found it to be hysterically funny. He said, "I laughed more than I've laughed in many years." He then told me that my level of attainment was very high, much higher than various teachers I mentioned in the book. He implied that I was very close to Buddhahood, and that with the right teacher (guess who?) I could probably get there. I replied that I was amazed at his ability to rank people's attainment that he had never met (some of whom were dead). He did not detect my sarcasm and explained that is was due to his deep intuitive connection with Source. He did not remember that some of the levels he quoted varied significantly from what he had previously told me or other people. He even told me that my wife's attainment was now much greater than Gangaji's, a statement that later elicited enormous laughter from Carol. The bottom line? He was a cigarette-man strongly attached to a new set of ideas that had replaced an earlier set of ideas. Here was a man who had had a huge awakening experience and experienced total freedom only to have his attainment eventually coopted by the mind. Probably the best definition of enlightenment is "non-abidance in the mind." Enlightement is the realization that there is nothing to attain and no one separate who could attain it. About the only thing that one "gets" from enlightenment is the cessation of seeking. The enlightened life is very ordinary. It is not special. It is sitting at McDonalds sipping a coffee, typing on a laptop, watching cars go by, listening to an angry father yelling at his young son, and thinking, "Lighten up Dad; the kid is only four years old." No past, no future, and no present. No one separate from the action. The truth is "just like this." It is very simple. How do we teach the cigarette-man? He is very strong. No matter what we say he will hit us. He is right and everyone else is wrong. Only he knows the truth. Other teachers have lower levels of attainment than he does, so he will not listen to anything anyone else says. It's a pretty good koan, isn't it? This is a wonderful koan Zendancer...I have two questions though...why having attained enlightenment did you go see the cigerrete man after your wife had already reported to you the happenings of the place...why go visit ...what was there to accomplish, find out, prove, or understand for an enlightened person....also...its a wonderful story about rating and being in enlightenment and then losing it...do you think if he had exhuasted his ego to the point of death instead of a temporary cessation of ego that he would have wondered back into ego?....and finally...has anyone here rated anyone other than the website that you are a staff member of and that is the parent sight of this forum?...I haven't seen anyone rating or ranking anyone in this thread...have you...can you requote the part where someone has ranked anyone?...if you find a sentence that you believe to be a rating or a ranking can you please add the two or three sentences immedietly before and after the rating for a context to the narrative? |
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Post by Portto on Sept 4, 2011 17:21:33 GMT -5
...I haven't seen anyone rating or ranking anyone in this thread...have you...can you requote the part where someone has ranked anyone?... Hi Tathagata, You said you are enlightened, while Enigma and Zendancer are not. I'd call that rating! |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 4, 2011 17:55:48 GMT -5
Why did I go visit the teacher? Another great koan. Surely the answer is obvious.
I once took my daughter to meet the Dalai Lama because I thought it would be fun. When my wife told a particular Zen Master about the trip, he replied, "I no longer have to visit teachers." He thus revealed something that he certainlyhadn't meant to reveal.
Reality is such a trip!
As I noted previously, Shawn Nevins is the website creator, and he is the rater. If you want him to rate you, I'm sure that he'd be glad to accomodate you. Shawn asked me to be the moderator after the previous moderator, Lightmystic, disappeared.
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Post by tathagata on Sept 4, 2011 21:39:47 GMT -5
...I haven't seen anyone rating or ranking anyone in this thread...have you...can you requote the part where someone has ranked anyone?... Hi Tathagata, You said you are enlightened, while Enigma and Zendancer are not. I'd call that rating! lol...thats only a rating if YOU place importance on enlightenment or not enlightenment...if I said I am red and you are blue it would only become a rating if you liked red better than blue or thought red MEANT something better than blue...here is the problem...peoples judgments selects part of what is actually said and makes them pic the sentences that supports their beliefs while ignoring the sentences that do not support their beliefs...this is why I said quote here where you have believed anyone has rated someone but quote the few sentences before and after what you believe to be a rating too for context...also...a note on particulars...a koan is not a story that proves a point...a koan is a logic chain or story that takes you beyond the logical..it is there to confound the mind...not support a point of view or illustrate a point. since we are telling stories today lets continue with that theme.... Once there was a little boy born into a poverty and abuse...he was the oldest of seven brothers and sisters and both parents were addicts or alchohics...they were as poor as you could be in America...the kids wore one outfit seven days a week...their toys were scavanged from dumpsters, and they ate government cheese government powdered milk and government rice much of the time...occassionally there was boloney or hot dogs... the boy was intropsective by nature...some of his earliest memories were of having dreams and realizing it was a dream and taking control of the dream...he could fly in his dreams, he could do whatever he wanted becuase he could recognize it was a dream...other of his earliest memories where becomeing aware that he was thinking and wondering where those thoughts came from...while the other children wanted to run and play and have games the boy just wanted to sit and not think...for hours on end he would sit in the woods or someplace away from the other children so he could sit and not think instead of worrying about who was going to eat what or play with what etc...many years passed liked this...one day the one of the boy's brothers dies in a car crash...the brother that was the most socialable and the life of the house...that brother was the life of every room he was in...so something happened to the boy, he took on some of the personality of the lost brother, he opened up to world and came out of his inner observation. the boy started playing sports and talking to girls..he discovered that he actually had some athletic ability, after a couple year of track and field he went to the high school national championships and got attention and scholarships, later he went to university for a time but got injured and lost his track scholarship, but being into his physicality he moved to martial arts and took up tai kwon do...after a short amount of time he was competeing in tournements and eventually got some notoriety for defeating an olympic bronse medalist, he got asked to come and try out for the us olympic Tai KWon Do team, the boy was so skilled at fighting by then that he knew that he felt he could defeat anyone in any room he walked into...he could outrun, outjump, and outfight anyone he met...but the boy was restless and still introspective, he looked at the direction his life would go in and had gone in with the pursuits of these physical achievements, and he knew that they had not satisfied him and were not going to satisfy him. So through experience he found out that this life of winning in physical trials of strength and skill were not going to make him happy and at peace...so he left that behind...martial arts had introduced him to eastern philosophy and zen and meditation...so he decided he would focus his martial arts life on the art part and not the martial part... Lost he started going to clubs and playing in the world, one evening a guy comes up to him and hands him a card saying I'm photographer and I work for a modeling agency, and I think you should come and meet some people...the young man went...they took his pictures...this led to other people taking his pictures, he moved to miami and got signed by a big modeling agency...his pictures were on billboards in europe and magizines here, everyone was telling him all the time how beautiful he was, but he looked at this road and found through experience that there would be no happiness, no peace in people telling him all the time how beautiful he was wthout him actually accomplishing aything other than that...so he quit and went back to the midwest and opened his own modeling agency at 22...thinking that building a business might be satisfying..he had some success but really felt he was an artist not a business person, he had been meditating a lot and it opened up a creative world for him...he began to dance and to paint, the dancing and the painting to the music was very beutiful for other people becuase he was in samadhi while doing them and it was a freeflow stream of conciuosness happining, so it was beuatiful, eventually he got a small following and it turned into a performance art show...and the women came, he was tall and athletic with dark hair and blue eyes the color of saphires, and he was an artist and spiritual too, so the women came...lots of women, women everyday..sometimes several women in one day, sometimes several womeen at one time, every sexual fantasy was fullfilled over and over...the women would buy him clothes, give him nice cars to drive and places to live, drugs to try, he didnt have to do anything but be an artist, be spiritual, and make love to beautiful women...one day a beautiful woman who was influencial in the art world took notice and comes up and asks the young man if he was an artist...the young man instantly saw his life as an artist with the patronage of beautiful women roll out in front him and saw that it was not going to make him happy, it was not going to bring him piece, and it was not going to help him find truth and meaning. Without thinking the young man says "no I am not an artist..only while I am in the pure movement of the brush on the canvas am I an artist, this is not a true artist, and artist is someone who is an artist in every breath of their life" this statement stunned him...it changed the direction of his life...he decided he was to become a buddha, but he thought about how to do this and eventually decided that he was going to become a buddha in a new way, he was going to become a buddha living a normal american life. So he looked at what he thought was normal and decided he needed to get a job where he wore a suit to work and went to an office and got married and had a family, but he would live a double life, he would do all of these things and use them to become a buddha instead of letting them keep him from becomeing a buddha....he became a mortgage broker and had some success, he opended his own mortgage company and built and sold it, he built and sold other businesses as well, he had very fast cars of pretty colors, and sedans of quiet luxury, he had houses made of brick and marble and granite and lots of of money in his bank account and every toy he wanted, but none of these thigs satisfied him..his was the search for buddhahood...nothing else. Eventually felt the need to be a teacher, it grew in him alongside his need for enlightenment...so he became a management consultant..he had never studied business having left school after a few years of studying biology and chemistry...but he had built and sold his own businesses so he felt qualified to teach others...very soon he realized he didnt know as much as he thought...but unduanted he started to study on his own...he made a commitment to learning everything he could on his own...he spent two hours everyday without fail reading and studying some aspect of accounting and finance and management...everyday without fail he studied for years and years...and all the while he took a job as an analyst looking at businesses from the inside out...he got the chance to review over 2000 businesses from top to bottom with access to every part of the businesses, so he got to see the actual application of all the stuff he was studying..eventually he became an expert...people sought him out for advice on their troubled business, he became a business turnaround specialist saving troubled businesses from bankruptcy...he save hundreds of thousands of family's jobs over the years and he was a teacher...not just any teacher, he was the teacher of teachers...CEO's that had had Harvard MBA's and MIT graduates where comeing to him for advice, he could keep a room full of billionaire CEO's mesmerized by his practical apllication of business theories...one day the teaching opportunity of a lifetime drops into his lap...he has a chance to turn around a 3.4 Billion dollar public company if he can just impress them enough with his knowledge and effectiveness...He goes to the meeting of his proffesional and teaching life and does the whole thing while attending the actual and in two days closes a contract that should take many months to close...it is a 45 million dollar consulting engagement...the largest ever management consulting engagement with a non governmental agency in the history of the world at that time, it was five times larger than the previous largest deal and that next closest deal was not even signed by an individual, it was signed by a publicly traded consulting firm, this consulting deal rewrote the paradigm for the industry....He had become the most successful teacher in his field that He could be...all along this meant little to him he thought...the only achievement that would mean anything in his life was to achieve enlightenemnt, but he really loved being a teacher...many months later he came to a realization that being a teacher was aweful, seeking to be a teacher was seeking power, becuase in the student teacher relationship the student has to give power to the teacher, and being a teacher must be why he had not achieved enlightenment yet...so he gave up teaching, after $585,000 in billings he passed the project on to people who subsequently blew up the project...gave up everything, the cars, the houses the condos, he gave up on his dream of becoming a businessman buddha...he moves to an apartment in southern california with his wife and does just enough to get by while devoting himself entirely to his spiritual search...every effort was expended...but it wasnt working...there were many moments of enlightenment, as there had been over the many years, but without fail he would end up back in maya, back in ego... Finally one day he is sitting on the balcony in meditation, watching his thoughts roll by like clouds in an open sky, he observes his senses, he observes his thoughts, he observes the sensor and the thinker...the thoughts come..."I have gone from weakness to physical prowess, I have lived a creative artists life and I have lived a corporate business life, I have fullfilled every sexual desire, I have gone from poverty to wealth to near poverty again, I have been a teacher with accolades that has genuinly helped many people, I have learned and succesfully practiced every technique that can make one enlightened and I have done these unfailingly every hour of everyday in every part of my life for almost 20 years...I have entered the deepest samadhi and achieved everything that technique and practice can achieve...and I am still here struggling with maya...I have failed and will not succeed...with this breath I will die, I will surrender my whole self becuase myself has failed, I have even failed at undoing myself"...and with that he enters the stillness he had entered so many times for the last time...he gave himslef up totally, even his search..... and in that moment it happened...the ego died...it was not interupted, it was no more, the ego died becuase he died. some months later while still in uninterupted stillness, with only the echos of his former identity moving like passing clouds through the stillness, though like an echo it was fading fast...he finds himself on the internet for no particualr reason, and for no particular reason he finds himself at the discussion board of this sight...he sees many ernest seekers of every type, and at every stage of their seeking...almost all are engaged in philophical musings of what something might be like or they are engaged in displays of ego or judgment as to what method is best or not best...for no particualr reason I sit down here...not in the main thread...after answering a question or two I saw posted I do not place myself in the heart of a philosophical debate and be a contender in that debate...I go off the beaten path into the introduction part of the forum, I sit down and offer to answer any questions or help with any difficult points people might be having, i do not say i am an expert and you should come to me...I have no desire to teach, I have tuaght business to harvard mba's and saw the meaninglessness of teaching...I do not want your money...I have had money and spent money and given money away...I do not want women, I have had those too, I do not want accolades, I have had those and not been satisfied...I have had desires, and had desires filled until there is no more desire...I have simply sat down and answered questions to people who have asked them...while I was doing that over in that little corner of this forum people came of there own volition and began to say that what I was saying was wrong...but I was not saying anything really...I am in stillness, and then a questioned is asked, and the answers moves, and then it is gone and I am in stillness again...I came out into the open forum becuase people entered into the thread where I was sitting, asked questions or made statements in the middle of a conversation with another, I invited them to ask questions themselves, and to understand that the answers I gave to another are not necassarily right for you, and I suggested that asking questions instead of offering opinions might yield more fruit. A person came into the question and answer thread we were in and offered some judgment and criticism...I asked that person what they were trying to accomplish and what they were seeking...they said truth, I gave them a technique to find it themselves...I did not say what truth was...I gave them a technique to find out themselves...enigma at first, and then others came forward of their own volition and criticized or found merit for the technique without ever actually trying it...I did not go to enigma and say his method was wrong, I have said this technique is good for this person in this situation, and that the merit of a technique is in the doing not the hypothosizing...so maybe some trying it instead of talking about it might help in the conversation about it...this opened a discussion about the merits of trying or not trying...this opened a general discussion on effort versus effortlessness...I have said that some here dont understand the degree of effort needed for enlightenment becuase they have not become enlightened... there is no inherant value in enlightenment or not enlightenment other than the value you might place on it as an individual... these value judgments happen becuase you have a painted a picture around enlightenment that is not it...enlightenment has no special properties nor does an enlightened person have any special properties ...except that becuase he or she has driven to the end of the road they can see all the way back...but here is where it gets really interesting...there is really no value in having made it to the end of the road...just be happy. here is food for thought...what does the amount of time it took to become enlightened matter to an enlightened person once they have become enlightened? What does it matter whether it took one day or a million years if they actually get there?...what relevence does time have if you are enlightened? some of the seekers here...most in fact...are not seeking enlightenment...they are seeking happiness...and this is wonderful...it may be lifetimes before they are seeking enlightenment...and that is fine...what does it matter in the timelessness of enlightenment if it took a million years...so very very few are actually at the time that they are really seeking enlightenment...these people are no better or no worse, or any further along than anyone else...they are just in a differant place...neither zendancer or enigma are at the end of the ego raod...but this does not mean they are of no help...on the contrary...both have very little ego inlfuence in their lives and both are very happy or content and both are very good teachers for helping anyone. you may think i'm writing this to prove myself right and somebody else wrong...its not true...i am undoing a story being told. |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 4, 2011 22:07:20 GMT -5
For those who remember the cigarette-man koan (about the man who is strongly attached to his idea of emptiness), here is a true "cigarette-man" story. Several years ago a man found himself in a living hell. His existence was so nightmarish and horrific that it destroyed his previous identity and left him struggling to stay alive and stay sane. In the midst of this nightmare the man picked up a spiritual book, read a single sentence, and had a major awakening experience. Instantly he found peace and equanimity and lost all concern with his body's life or death. In the midst of a nightmare the man found himself free and unaffected by his surroundings. Several months later the nightmare ended and the man was free to do whatever he wished. He then wrote a book about his life, experiences, and understanding. After his book was published, he began to give satsang and conduct meditation retreats, and soon acquired a large following. As more and more people came to him for his teachings, he acquired and dispersed many new ideas. He began to see people in terms of their level of spiritual attainment, and he began ranking them accordingly. One person might be a 530 and another person might be a 480. He considered Jesus, The Buddha, and himself to be at 1000 and everyone else was somewhere between 0 and that level. As he became more attached this idea and a few other similar ideas, his followers began to dwindle. People who heard his teachings began to think that something wasn't quite right and that he didn't pass the guru smell-test. After his following collapsed, which he attributed to people's "unwillingness to hear the truth" or "unreadiness to embrace the truth," he moved to a new location only a few hundred miles from my home. Carol and I had always been curious about this man, but we knew nothing about him other than what he had written in his book. We did not know what he was currently teaching. Carol and our daughter decided to go visit the man's new retreat facility, which was a kind of spa with gourmet food. After they returned three days later, I asked them what had happened. Carol told me that the man had ridden up to the retreat facility on a motorcycle, introduced himself, dangled a crystal in front of them, and told her that she was at a spiritual level of 480 and our daughter was a level of 440. I asked, "Are you serious?" She laughed and assured me that she was and that she and our daughter were somewhat stunned. I told her that she should have grabbed the crystal, thrown it into the field, and asked, "What level is that?" She laughed and said that she had been too surprised to think of that. A year later I went to the man's retreat center along with two chiropractors and their wives. The man did not bring out any crystals or talk much during the first day. He had a beautiful facility with great food and an idyllic medtitation site. I sat with him for three days and had a great time. I found him likable, kind, generous, and interesting, but not nearly as deep or as clear as many other teachers I had met. Some of his ideas were a bit wacky and he was very attached to his high level of attainment and his ability to accurately guage other people's level of attainment. He had a wonderful dog that I think was more enlightened than he was. After I returned home, I sent him a thank you note for the retreat, and included a copy of my spiritual autobiography. A week later he called to tell me that although he had long quit reading spiritual books, he read mine and found it to be hysterically funny. He said, "I laughed more than I've laughed in many years." He then told me that my level of attainment was very high, much higher than various teachers I mentioned in the book. He implied that I was very close to Buddhahood, and that with the right teacher (guess who?) I could probably get there. I replied that I was amazed at his ability to rank people's attainment that he had never met (some of whom were dead). He did not detect my sarcasm and explained that is was due to his deep intuitive connection with Source. He did not remember that some of the levels he quoted varied significantly from what he had previously told me or other people. He even told me that my wife's attainment was now much greater than Gangaji's, a statement that later elicited enormous laughter from Carol. The bottom line? He was a cigarette-man strongly attached to a new set of ideas that had replaced an earlier set of ideas. Here was a man who had had a huge awakening experience and experienced total freedom only to have his attainment eventually coopted by the mind. Probably the best definition of enlightenment is "non-abidance in the mind." Enlightement is the realization that there is nothing to attain and no one separate who could attain it. About the only thing that one "gets" from enlightenment is the cessation of seeking. The enlightened life is very ordinary. It is not special. It is sitting at McDonalds sipping a coffee, typing on a laptop, watching cars go by, listening to an angry father yelling at his young son, and thinking, "Lighten up Dad; the kid is only four years old." No past, no future, and no present. No one separate from the action. The truth is "just like this." It is very simple. How do we teach the cigarette-man? He is very strong. No matter what we say he will hit us. He is right and everyone else is wrong. Only he knows the truth. Other teachers have lower levels of attainment than he does, so he will not listen to anything anyone else says. It's a pretty good koan, isn't it? here is another story..shorter though lol...Bhodhidharma who is the father of zen of which attending the actual is an aspect, was traveling on a long journey from india across china...Bhodhidharma is the patriarch of Zen in that he brought it out of india and gave it to the rest of the world.....If Bob is the fruit of that tree bhodhidharma is the root. Bodhidharma traveled across china and challenged everyones beliefs including the emporer's He eventually made his way to what was considered the bastion of the purest budhist...the purest and most authentic practitioners, which was the white mountain monastary (Shaolin)...from ther is is commonly understood that he found a receptive audience and that he tuaght them Zen and the a type of yoga that was the foundation of Shaolin Kung Fu...but this is not accurate...the monks where very good at keeping records and they still exist today....what really happened was that he was forced out of the monastary for challenging their beliefs practices and stories in a way that only one who has nothing to gain or nothing to lose can do...he then went to a nearby cave and remained...his sutras survived only becuase a few monks went to see what he was saying for themselves....everybody else kicked him out of the monastary becuase he questioned their beliefs...only becuase of this. if you were enlightened and had no ego you could create a koan...even if you were in samadhi which is enlightenment you can create a koan...but the ego cannot create a koan...sit in samadhi and see if anything you have written here is a koan that confounds and ends logic and ego...or if what you have written a story proving a point...there is nothing wrong with a story proving a point...but it is not a koan. |
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Post by tathagata on Sept 4, 2011 22:23:45 GMT -5
All reactions...no matter what they are...come from inside you, not from what someone else has said So you're saying that there really is a "me" and a "someone else"? That makes a change around here. No man is an island, Tathagata. It's not "me" or "you", it's in the iteraction of the "meness" and "youness" that the reaction arises. Well you can say that. But as I receive your writing, you're coming over very clearly with a "Listen to me, I have ATTAINED" attitude. Obviously this is just my opinion, others may see it differently. What I see is a very full cup. As often happens when someone gets a challenge here, I see you have not responded to my question. So you're not actually paying much attention to what's being reflected back to you. Enigma made the same complaint; you're just not listening. And yet you seem very keen that I should listen to you? At length? Let me remind you of the question: Choosing the username " Tathagata" is something of a giveaway as to where your head is at. Still, it could have been worse. Could have been another "Swami". Attending the actual is not a new technique or zendancers technique...it has been used throughout the centuries and the oldest written record of it is at least 5000 years old Really? If you Google the phrase "Attending the Actual" the first two results are about Madonna attending an actual film premiere, and the 3rd one links to one of ZenDancer's posts on this board. 5 pages of results later I hadn't come across anything remotely relevant to any sort of spiritual development. So I'll call you on that then - where would I find this 5000 year old written record, or did you just make that up? Regards, Peter I hope i answered your question about the record you were looking for...as to your other question...i have posted about that in one of my first posts here...its easy to find...2 maybe three months now... I'm curious though...do you believe that once you are enlightened time is relevent?...this is were I new that while zendancer was a wonderful man and teacher he was not enlightened...where is there a desire to teach in stillness...how would it go away with time...it should be noted that i am not saying he claims to be something he is not...he said he wasnt enlightened...this a very honest thing to say, and it shows someone not dominated by spiritual ego...but on the other side of that coin someone who is enlightened is not going to say they are not becuase this is an ego thing too...and there is no ego...or concerns about expectations that may or may not be placed...most of the hubbub here is not becuase i have said i am enlightened and somebody else is not...it is becuase there is judgment about these things...there is judgment that an enlightened person has attained something that someone else has not attained...or rather that having attained anything is better than not having attained anything...there is no value of one over the other unless you invent that value as a part of your story...be without a story or value judgment regarding enlightened or not enlightened and you wont see any rating here. |
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