Bye bye

[frankshank]

Good tactics by Michael there. Boost dreamerrach's ego by pointing out her karma/posts ratio and compliment her for standing up to the majority. Sorry, more stirring from me, but its too much fun and Ive held back really well!

[dreamerrach]

As useful as talking to a brick wall . . . No, less.

[dreamerrach]

I don't care a bit about my karma rating--feel free to lower it; it doesn't matter at all. And pretty sure you are morphing two posters into one.

Silly me thought this would have potential to add value as the claim went, but did not realize too quickly that it was just about being seen in the right light.

[frankshank]

Brick walls have their uses. Im off out for a refreshing afternoon beer now. Ill leave you to argue with someone else. LOL.

[someNOTHING!]

>>Dreamer-

Welllllll, at least you're not glazing over anymore! Keeping the dream alive! You're doing great work! Getting closer...forever!


"something really there"- getting colder!

"prestigious category"- geeeetting cooooolder!

(assuming separateness and likely judgment of someone else's BS 'truth') "how very truthful"- ice baby!
_______________________________________________________________

It's NOT about you Dream. Dream starts the search, and she's already miles from Truth.

What Is IS. Right Here. IT. Only Look,,,without distortions of the mind (your mind is like a pair of glasses). Without mind, no you, no other, Just This. YOU.

"Go into" and operate at the level of mind (unconsciously believing/accepting separateness), and you'll never see beyond the level of mind....division.

As Nizzeroo said, just stay with the I AM.

Hope you die! <<repeated ad nauseum in slow drones and with pipe whistles and trombones playing ion the back ground>>

Whacked out from grading and giving feedback on 52 essays....wahooooo, time for some red!

BE-LOVE-D

[dreamerrach]

Just wanted kindling for the flames.

Thanks for the "pointers"

[someNOTHING!]

Apr 17, 2011 8:24:37 GMT -5 @dreamerrach said:

Just wanted kindling for the flames.

Thanks for the "pointers"

Keep on burning!!

[zendancer]

The "Mu" koan is probably the most enlightenment-triggering koan in existence. I don't know whether that's because it's used for this purpose more often and therefore given to more people, or whether it has some peculiar property that allows it to function more effectively than other koans. Most of the other koans will trigger an "aha" kind of realization, and perhaps free one from one or more specific attachments, but Mu often catapults people directly into the void. In some rare cases it results in a kensho experience so powerful that it leads to satori.

I've never heard of a case where the cigarette-man koan led to either a kensho experience or satori, but it is the koan that most often comes to my mind when teaching and interacting with people. People get strongly attached to their ideas, and that is what this koan deals with. How do you teach a person who says that she is interested in learning, but has a closed mind? How do you teach a person who is not asking to be taught? What is the role of a good teacher and a good student?

As a general rule, people intellectually fossilize as they grow older. This is because they live more and more of their time in their imaginations. I once experimented with various age groups by asking several public koans that are relatively easy to see through. For example, I asked the koan about the father/son/neurosurgeon. Children could easily see through 90% of the questions. Teenagers could see through about 70%. College honors students could see through about 80%. Middle-aged people could see through about 30%, and people over the age of sixty rarely saw through any of the questions.

When my daughter was young, about 6-8 years old, I was amazed that she could answer so many koans. By the time she was a teenager, she was no longer able to solve koans that she easily solved eight years earlier. Many times she would say, "Dad, I know I once knew the answer to such and such a koan, but I can't remember the answer now." She said this because her imagination had replaced direct experience as her way of interacting with the world. The answers were still in her body, but they were buried under layers of ideas and could no longer be "seen."

In one of his books Ram Dass tells about his rigid Republican father whose cosmic egg cracked wide open when his wife died. It lasted about a month. I once heard the same story from a Zen Master. His father had never understood why his son developed an interest in existential truth, and considered his son a failure by conventional standards. Then, his wife died, and his cosmic-egg world of ideas shattered. His son told me that for two months or so his father became loving and kind and non-judgmental, but then........the old habits of mind gradually returned, and his father returned to the prison of his mind.

Carol and I have friends that we deeply enjoy being with, but there are certain subjects that cannot be discussed. They can only see certain things from one narrow perspective and do not have enough spaciousness of mind to see alternative perspectives. This is what the cigarette-man koan deals with, but in this case it focuses upon someone who is so convinced that oneness is equivalent to emptiness that he won't listen to anyone who tries to tell him anything different.

Every day we encounter cigarette men and cigarette women who are very attached to their ideas. It doesn't matter what you say to them. They will always be right (in their own mind) and anyone who disagrees with them will always be wrong. What is our correct function in cases like this?

People who think of themselves as "spiritual" will have various ideas about the necessity of "saving" others, but what happens when we let go of the idea of being spiritual? What happens when we become so immersed in isness that self and other have both disappeared? What happens when there is non-abidance in the mind? Who, then, can save anyone or be saved?

To get some insight into this koan, one can reflect upon how one interacts with various people exhibiting various degrees of attachment to their ideas. Think about the people who are the most fun to be with. What are their characteristics? Generally, the people who we are most drawn to be with are people who accept us as we are, who have no expectations of how we ought to be, who love us unconditionally, who enjoy life, who have no sacred cows to defend of promote, and who appreciate the wonder and mystery of life. The converse is equally true.

The cigarette man koan, like all koans, has a mind-hook in it. If the mind takes the bait, it's already too late.

[abideinself]

Apr 17, 2011 3:55:29 GMT -5 vacant said:

Apr 17, 2011 1:19:10 GMT -5 someNOTHING! said:

Better sentence structure, btw, but still go those pesky signature run on sentences.

Hehe! yup, my thoughts exactly

Now that is really silly. I can see why you believe I am Michael.
Your ego's are so uncontrolled that you look for any thing you can to go against anyone that goes against you. This is why I do not post much. Dreamer is a good example of integrity something you guys really lack.
Also have staff check my post you will see it's not coming from Michael address. BTW you few are not the MAJORITY they left a long time ago. Hundreds became in active because of you few.
I will do the same now because of your very bias attitudes.
Bye
Richard

[Deleted]

the particular textual signature is remarkably familiar

[karen]

Apr 16, 2011 23:38:17 GMT -5 @dreamerrach said:

Hmm you seem to be splicing together quotes from me as you see fit. Have fun with that, but it just garbles what I said--and I claim no ownership to it. And I have not mentioned board conduct or any such--just pointed some of the basics of a productive conversation.

And projection is just an easy cop-out. Oh, I disagree with this person--they must just be projecting. Please point out where I've claimed authority or tried to be "correct." I don't care if I am wrong--that's just fine, I'll recognize it, and alter my course. I don't have the need for games or positions.

I referenced the pissing contest because that is what was happening. It was all just "nuh uh I'm right" "nuh uh you're wrong" "neo-advaita is bollocks" (I am misquoting here, oh well), and the things I was seeking answers for were derailed with all that nonsense, so I asked if it was over with.

You seem to feel the need to layer meaning upon what I put, adding your own spins. Well, okay, whatever.

Hi Rach,

From my perspective, there was a pissing match going on. But it was one sided - MS and his occasional wing-men/dummy accounts on one side within some competition they imagined vs. ZD, E. et al who were just setting the record straight.

Before you respond to that, answer this: is it even possible for someone to correct another without it being a pissing match? Like if I were to overhear someone give wrong directions to the theater to another, is it possible for me to correct those directions without me trying to feel superior? And if the first guy were to take my correction personally and get offended, does that therefor mean any further correction to the record on my part must be also personal and out of a feeling of offense? If so how does that follow?

[sharon]

the particular textual signature is remarkably familiar

Uncanny ain't it ~ now where did I see it again ... ahhh yeah it's coming back to me now ...

[enigma]

Apr 17, 2011 10:03:34 GMT -5 @abideinself said:

Apr 17, 2011 3:55:29 GMT -5 vacant said:

Hehe! yup, my thoughts exactly

Now that is really silly. I can see why you believe I am Michael.
Your ego's are so uncontrolled that you look for any thing you can to go against anyone that goes against you. This is why I do not post much. Dreamer is a good example of integrity something you guys really lack.
Also have staff check my post you will see it's not coming from Michael address. BTW you few are not the MAJORITY they left a long time ago. Hundreds became in active because of you few.
I will do the same now because of your very bias attitudes.
Bye
Richard

Wow, you really are Michael. I had no idea. HA!
It does explain your misinterpretation of Dreamer's posts, as though nothing she actually says is heard at all. Interesting that you would play that game while talking about integrity.

old lazy typing habits are hard to break aren't they michael?

[teetown]

ZD, thanks for that post about koans.

Just curious. I doubt this matters, but do the koans have a right answer? If the koan is understood properly, is there a specific answer that is given?. If not, then how does the guru verify that the person understands it?

[enigma]

I enjoyed that post, Zen. Very clear about your daughter losing her ability to see through the koans as she got older, and quite fascinating.

"I've never heard of a case where the cigarette-man koan led to either a kensho experience or satori, but it is the koan that most often comes to my mind when teaching and interacting with people. People get strongly attached to their ideas, and that is what this koan deals with. How do you teach a person who says that she is interested in learning, but has a closed mind? How do you teach a person who is not asking to be taught? What is the role of a good teacher and a good student?"


As I see it, taking on the formal perspective of a teacher is never a good plan. Essentially, teachers aren't needed as teaching and learning is always happening by virtue of the nature of the spontaneous unfolding of consciousness. Even the guru is playing a role in this and if there is an attachment to that role, it's not the highest Truth that is being taught.

Many have an interest in sharing what has been seen, which may be an exploration, or a fascination with the 'mystery' or it may be a movement of Love or compassion, and it's all wonderful. It's okay, in this context, to play with the idea of effectiveness in communicating such things. As I may have mentioned, it's clear to me that seeing only happens when there is an open space at the boundary of the current delusion. Resistance closes that space and reinforces the delusion through various mental machinations and the one resisting wins the day because the one forming the delusion is the same one that is defending it. IOW, there is no 'space' in which it can possibly collapse.

Hencely, and from a more personal perspective, there's no attempt to convince the one resisting of his/her misconceptions. Anyone who has tried to PM or email me from that argumentative position of closed resistance knows that there is no interest at all in discussing. The reason am I often so relentless on these forums is that I'm not really talking to the person I'm talking to, and have no expectation that they will see what is being talked about. The cigarette man will flick his ashes and wander off and nothing at all can be done about that, nor does anything need to be done about it.

However, we learn by openly watching others from a detached perspective, and noticing something that we didn't know was in our way. I sometimes talk about it as noticing others falling into the lion trap so that we know to walk around it. If you are already in the trap, nobody can pull you out and you're going to have to dig your way out slowly, and your fingers are going to bleed, but if you see the trap then you can move on to the next one, carefully.

Lemme ask an open question here; In all this Michael nonsense, has anybody noticed, realized or gained more clarity about anything that came out of the utterly failed discussions with Michael? If so, then you know why these discussions happened, and why they continue to happen with others. It's not about the cigarette man, it's about the rest of the Zen students in the room. I know that's not the answer to the koan, but I don't care about the koan. I care about the people in the room.