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Apr 16, 2011 20:26:06 GMT -5
Post by question on Apr 16, 2011 20:26:06 GMT -5
If I'm unable to see through the koan then how can I teach him anything? For me to teach him is only possible if I'm attached to ideas of my own. It's actually the cigarette man who teaches me that I'm attached to a set of ideas which make me want to preach to him about how attached he is.
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Apr 16, 2011 21:29:48 GMT -5
Post by Portto on Apr 16, 2011 21:29:48 GMT -5
The Cigarette man can't be taught, but he's not the only one in the temple. What about the pledge for "no cigarette man left behind?" |
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Apr 16, 2011 21:42:10 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Apr 16, 2011 21:42:10 GMT -5
The Cigarette man can't be taught, but he's not the only one in the temple. What about the pledge for "no cigarette man left behind?" Hey, tell it to the Marlboro man.  Maybe we could say that teachers, which is really everybody, are here to meet us at the point of our most dominant delusion. For some that means a friend or partner who doesn't treat us well, and for others it may be a guru to point to the final gate. The guru is of no more use to the one who needs an abusive partner than an abusive partner is to one who needs a guru. They won't hear because that's not what they're listening for. |
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Apr 16, 2011 23:04:28 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on Apr 16, 2011 23:04:28 GMT -5
roflol You guys are silly. someNOTHING!, No, I don't perceive any transgressions; not sure how that would be your understanding of what I said. I do see what appears to be jockeying for positions, which I ineloquently term a "pissing contest." I don't know what label you're referring to. But when it becomes about who is right more than what is right, then I think the value has been greatly diminished from any discussion. I don't give a d**ned if I am wrong--I have been wrong often, and I will be wrong again. I would rather know the truth than to be seen as right or enlightened or whatever. I don't care about labels, just content. Sarcasm is all well and good, but there's a point where it strangles and discourages open dialogue. Silly. Oh yeah, for sure. Jockeying for any kind of position. No, perhaps that's a projection. The thing you labeled "pissing contest" is/was the open dialogue quite often pointing right at that Truth of what You are just prior to (who the mind thinks you are) the searcher who supposedly "would rather know the truth" and is being distracted by all the things/content it looks for and finds. The perceived tension, which might be what you are noticing and misunderstanding as the "pissing contest", is the resistance to that pointing. The illusory self that is resisting does not want to be stripped naked, seen for the emptiness it is, and therefore projects unconscious stuff and loathes the disappointment of not finding what it wants here (as mentioned elsewhere), which in turn enables it to prolong its charade. I see a lot of skill in that pointing here, and I dare say it is actually done pretty patiently and even-handedly. Did I misinterpret you as saying this "pissing contest" as "jockeying" while "strangling or discouraging others" was not a transgression of some board conduct? Yep, I make mistakes all the time too, so perhaps I missed something. It just happens in discussions...especially of this nature. Off to grade essays... |
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Apr 16, 2011 23:38:17 GMT -5
Post by dreamerrach on Apr 16, 2011 23:38:17 GMT -5
Hmm you seem to be splicing together quotes from me as you see fit. Have fun with that, but it just garbles what I said--and I claim no ownership to it. And I have not mentioned board conduct or any such--just pointed some of the basics of a productive conversation.
And projection is just an easy cop-out. Oh, I disagree with this person--they must just be projecting. Please point out where I've claimed authority or tried to be "correct." I don't care if I am wrong--that's just fine, I'll recognize it, and alter my course. I don't have the need for games or positions.
I referenced the pissing contest because that is what was happening. It was all just "nuh uh I'm right" "nuh uh you're wrong" "neo-advaita is bollocks" (I am misquoting here, oh well), and the things I was seeking answers for were derailed with all that nonsense, so I asked if it was over with.
You seem to feel the need to layer meaning upon what I put, adding your own spins. Well, okay, whatever.
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Apr 16, 2011 23:39:56 GMT -5
Post by dreamerrach on Apr 16, 2011 23:39:56 GMT -5
No value added. Hmm  |
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Apr 16, 2011 23:52:56 GMT -5
Post by abideinself on Apr 16, 2011 23:52:56 GMT -5
Hmm you seem to be splicing together quotes from me as you see fit. Have fun with that, but it just garbles what I said--and I claim no ownership to it. And I have not mentioned board conduct or any such--just pointed some of the basics of a productive conversation. And projection is just an easy cop-out. Oh, I disagree with this person--they must just be projecting. Please point out where I've claimed authority or tried to be "correct." I don't care if I am wrong--that's just fine, I'll recognize it, and alter my course. I don't have the need for games or positions. I referenced the pissing contest because that is what was happening. It was all just "nuh uh I'm right" "nuh uh you're wrong" "neo-advaita is bollocks" (I am misquoting here, oh well), and the things I was seeking answers for were derailed with all that nonsense, so I asked if it was over with. You seem to feel the need to layer meaning upon what I put, adding your own spins. Well, okay, whatever. I am from old school but this is what Michael was trying to convey. SN is the typical non dual guy(no offense) this is what they do. My own Guru was Nisargadatta Maharaj or just Maharaj which he liked to be called. I see many elements of Neo-Advaita here on this forum that's why I hardly ever post. However your post caught my eye as your one of the few that speak back here. Namaste Richard |
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Apr 17, 2011 1:19:10 GMT -5
Post by someNOTHING! on Apr 17, 2011 1:19:10 GMT -5
Hmm you seem to be splicing together quotes from me as you see fit. Have fun with that, but it just garbles what I said--and I claim no ownership to it. And I have not mentioned board conduct or any such--just pointed some of the basics of a productive conversation. And projection is just an easy cop-out. Oh, I disagree with this person--they must just be projecting. Please point out where I've claimed authority or tried to be "correct." I don't care if I am wrong--that's just fine, I'll recognize it, and alter my course. I don't have the need for games or positions. I referenced the pissing contest because that is what was happening. It was all just "nuh uh I'm right" "nuh uh you're wrong" "neo-advaita is bollocks" (I am misquoting here, oh well), and the things I was seeking answers for were derailed with all that nonsense, so I asked if it was over with. You seem to feel the need to layer meaning upon what I put, adding your own spins. Well, okay, whatever. Honestly, I have no intention of judging, misrepresenting, criticizing, or anything of the like. I suppose if I were some kind of gifted teacher/guru (not even close, btw!), I could keep pushing buttons and pulling strings to get you to spill it all out. Not my thing. I want nothing from you; so what would be the point. Carry on! Please don't get distracted by some game of 'you' vs. 'me'. It's not about SN or Dreamer...it's about finding Truth. It's very very impersonal, and so SO VERY ordinary. It's just that mind is not used to the simplicity. No offense taken. Better sentence structure, btw, but still go those pesky signature run on sentences.  |
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Apr 17, 2011 2:38:44 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2011 2:38:44 GMT -5
"I referenced the pissing contest because that is what was happening."
I know it seems as obvious to you that this is what was happening as it seems obvious to Abide (and Michael) that some kind of neo-Advaita indoctrination is going on here, but these are all particular perspectives grounded in and biased through various experiences and understandings that are uniquely your own.
A pissing contest implies a conversation dominated by the need to be right, and yet I'm clear about what my own motivation is, and from what SN says, it seems to resonate strongly with his motivation. I agree with him that what has been explored is the truth you say you want to explore, and yet you couldn't hear or participate because you were distracted by the disagreeable tone of the conversation, and it appears that you continue to be distracted.
Nobody's taking your words out of context or layering meaning or adding spins or coping out. This is all happening in your imagination only.
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Apr 17, 2011 2:52:04 GMT -5
Post by enigma on Apr 17, 2011 2:52:04 GMT -5
Hmm you seem to be splicing together quotes from me as you see fit. Have fun with that, but it just garbles what I said--and I claim no ownership to it. And I have not mentioned board conduct or any such--just pointed some of the basics of a productive conversation. And projection is just an easy cop-out. Oh, I disagree with this person--they must just be projecting. Please point out where I've claimed authority or tried to be "correct." I don't care if I am wrong--that's just fine, I'll recognize it, and alter my course. I don't have the need for games or positions. I referenced the pissing contest because that is what was happening. It was all just "nuh uh I'm right" "nuh uh you're wrong" "neo-advaita is bollocks" (I am misquoting here, oh well), and the things I was seeking answers for were derailed with all that nonsense, so I asked if it was over with. You seem to feel the need to layer meaning upon what I put, adding your own spins. Well, okay, whatever. I am from old school but this is what Michael was trying to convey. SN is the typical non dual guy(no offense) this is what they do. My own Guru was Nisargadatta Maharaj or just Maharaj which he liked to be called. I see many elements of Neo-Advaita here on this forum that's why I hardly ever post. However your post caught my eye as your one of the few that speak back here. Namaste Richard Actually, what Michael seemed to be trying to convey was how ignorant the rest of us are about what it takes to be as enlightened as he is, which always seemed to involve putting down others on this board, either by name or through general implication. It didn't seem to have much to do with the comments above, which don't have anything to do with nonduality or any sort of Advaita. Your attention is drawn to dreamer because you see her speaking back against the cult of neo-advaita being enforced through various military strategies or some such. Hehe. And yet she's not talking about any of that, so who's voice are you listening to but the one in your own head, just as dreamer is doing now? |
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Apr 17, 2011 3:49:34 GMT -5
Post by souley on Apr 17, 2011 3:49:34 GMT -5
For those who really do recognize truth it is super obvious what happened, and it seems no amount of words can explain it to anyone who doesn't recognize it. The cigarette man sure is a good illustration of this. I gotta work that koan some more because there is definitely a bit of frustration here.
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Apr 17, 2011 3:55:29 GMT -5
Post by vacant on Apr 17, 2011 3:55:29 GMT -5
Better sentence structure, btw, but still go those pesky signature run on sentences. Hehe! yup, my thoughts exactly |
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Apr 17, 2011 4:01:33 GMT -5
Post by souley on Apr 17, 2011 4:01:33 GMT -5
Better sentence structure, btw, but still go those pesky signature run on sentences. Hehe! yup, my thoughts exactly I don't know about better.. |
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Apr 17, 2011 6:21:14 GMT -5
Post by dreamerrach on Apr 17, 2011 6:21:14 GMT -5
LOL
"I'm not judgmental! Me? No way!"
Perhaps you're fooling yourselves.
When you layer your own meanings on another and point to where you deem it wrong, that's a judgment, dearhearts. Dressing it up any other way or denying judgment does not change what is.
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Apr 17, 2011 6:28:27 GMT -5
Post by dreamerrach on Apr 17, 2011 6:28:27 GMT -5
Also, "couldn't hear or participate." (More judgment, goodie!) That's utter bollocks. For one, you have no way of knowing what I paid attention to or absorbed--for another, I actively participated. Wrong right off the bat.
If you're going to judge, at least use something really there. Would it make it easier if I laid all my faults out? I'll gladly do this; I don't fear your judgment--I just call a spade a spade.
And as for "those who really do recognize truth" must be nice to fit yourself into that prestigious category. Creating division, how very truthful...
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