John Wheeler

[anandakosha]

Dont really like John wheeler doesn't seem to be talking from experience.

[Deleted]

"It is the interest in the mind that keeps it in spin. It is like being on an exercise bicycle. Once you stop pedaling, the ride is over. It is the person on the bicycle who keeps it going. If he or she is wondering “when will it stop?”, it is a misplaced evaluation, really. Nisargadatta Maharaj used to say, “Stop paying attention to the mind and it simply disappears.” So ultimately, there is nothing to wait for, nothing to stop, nothing that needs to come to an end, except our own continued interest in the mind. Those who are trying to silence or stop the mind are still proclaiming their interest in the mind! What is the mind? An intangible, substanceless ripple coming and going in the ever-present perfection. And what are you? You are that perfection here and now. And what are the apparent ripples in essence? Are they not that also? So what is really present, finally? That and only that. This being seen, the bondage to the mind is over. It is ever-present, unconditional freedom, which has been right under our noses the whole time. All possible spiritual approaches are only secondary aids to assist in nailing down this one basic point. "

www.thenaturalstate.info/

[topology]

May 1, 2012 2:25:24 GMT -5 anandakosha said:

Dont really like John wheeler doesn't seem to be talking from experience.

Have you engaged him directly or just reacting to some of his writing?

Without engaging him directly, meaning you entangle with him in discussion and he entangles back, how will you ever truly know?

[Deleted]

Your true nature is not an object. Provisionally, you may call it the "knower". But actually it is the source of even the knower. It is self-evident and clearly present at all times. It is known without even needing to be known. It is the ever-present ground of knowing and all else. It is your very being itself. Ask yourself if you exist. See how clear and certain that fact is. You are NOT recognizing a thought or other object in that. Nor are you recognizing a subject. It is a direct recognition of the fact of being itself. THAT is the direct "knowing". It is not subject/object knowledge, nor is it mental or conceptual. It is not even an experience. It is the presupposition of any specific experience. Don't make this too hard, for in truth it is very direct and simple. Before you think anything, you are there. You know that very clearly. It is non-dual, non-conceptual and immediate. You know being by being it. You are it. This is not some complicated attainment. It is not an attainment at all. You are already what you have been seeking. Your real nature has never been in bondage and requires no liberation. The concepts of bondage and liberation reside in imagination. What you are, even now, is completely untouched by any concept and prior to imagination. Any word, concept, idea, state, or experience the mind can conceive is not what you are, as you necessarily precede all concepts. All trouble comes from seeking what you are in concepts and imagination.

thenaturalstate.info/

[Deleted]

Your natural state is prior to concepts. As long as the positive identity of oneself is not absolutely clear, there will be continued attempts to define oneself at a conceptual level. Not finding any “I” is not the same as knowing what you are. Even having an insight such as “I am awareness” is not really enough, as it is apt to remain conceptual and become the basis of another belief system. That is not the final understanding. It is not non-conceptual reality. Thinking “I am awareness” can easily become a new identification for the “I” reference point. This is seen in the case of those claiming to “be awareness” yet who exhibit all types of self-centered concepts, motivations, and actions. The means to cut through the mind’s doubts is not to track into the mind and its variable experiences, but to discover that which is not susceptible to the mind’s activities. Your true nature is not present at the level of the mind, or even consciousness, and is not affected by concepts and experiences. So considering this (what you are) takes you straight out of the doubts and the influence of the mind altogether. That is why there is no answer in the mind. Beyond the mind and consciousness, at the level of one’s genuine being, there are no doubts or questions to address. The mind is a phenomenon whose existence is based on something else. We are interested in the “something else”, not the mind or its projections. Beyond the mind is the knower of the mind. Beyond the knower is reality itself.

thenaturalstate.info/

[Deleted]

good medicine for this confused ailment; or at least a balm.

.....

The point is NOT that the notion of a separate “I” stops. If it is seen for what it is, that is the key. Then there is no reality or belief going into that notion. Whether or not it appears is immaterial. If you start thinking that that notion must fall away, then you are back in a dualism and making your freedom dependent. That notion, or any other notion, simply appears in consciousness. Consciousness also appears in you. Seeing this, any thoughts or experiences, even the presence of consciousness, can come and go. You remain as you are. This is now, not an attainment. Consciousness seems localized and appears to be in reference to a body. Actually, the body and all else appears in consciousness. It is not localized. But even that consciousness, seemingly infinite and formless, is an appearance. Your real nature is not really describable in terms such as spacious, alive, pervasive, etc., although these may be pointers. “Aware presence” is still a subtle appearance. You are prior to that notion or experience. Currently, I prefer not to use the word “awareness” for the real nature, as it is apt to be confused with consciousness, perception, presence, knowing, etc. Your real nature cannot be ANY label or word, so various terms from relative experience, like “consciousness”, “awareness”, “being”, “presence” are pressed into service as pointers. But they are pointers, not IT. At the end of the day, only the direct recognition of what you are is conclusive. All else is provisional. Even the pointers to the direct recognition are provisional, because the pointers are not what you are. Eventually we cross over from the pointers to what is pointed to and things fall into place.

thenaturalstate.info/index.html

[Deleted]

Our real, natural state is non-conceptual and unlimited. This is why it is described as free, unconditioned, beyond suffering, etc. There is nothing “wrong” with concepts per se, as they are useful at their own level. But when it comes to knowing/being what you are, they fail miserably. All the self-centered notions hinge upon the central “I” notion. In all forms of suffering there is a tacit reference to this concept, which is taken as real and as one’s self. Appreciating this fact eventually leads one to a direct inquiry into the nature of this concept and one’s relationship with it (i.e., is it really substantial, and can it be an adequate representation of one’s natural condition?). When the light of inquiry turns to looking into this, the basic unexamined ignorance is exposed and any lingering belief in, and identity with, the notion fades. This is effectively the end of suffering, for it is only the presumed “I” that ever has limits. All self-centered concepts are only further limitations placed on the first concept. So concepts are only limiting and restricting themselves. It is all ideational, or pure imagination. Seeing this very directly, the game is up. The unquestioned assumption of the “I” being a valid reference point for oneself is canceled. One’s real nature, which is ever present as the space in which all this conceptualizing was happening, remains as it was, is, and ever will be. It is immaculate and unconditioned freedom.

[riennipersonne]

No concept, no experience. As simple as that ! :-)

[Deleted]

Whatever comes and goes is mere appearance to you. You are aware of the coming and going of consciousness. That consciousness is a product of the body. No body, no consciousness. Still you are prior to that as the substratum on which it appears. Both consciousness and unconsciousness appear in you. You are aware of the coming and going of both. So that prior state is sometimes pointed to as “awareness”. However, such awareness is not body-based. Words such as “awareness”, “being”, etc., are POINTERS only. They are concepts drawn from dualistic experience. They are not strictly accurate for what is your real nature prior to consciousness. The confusion comes in by attempting to grasp what you are in conceptual structures which are not adequate for the task. To put this as simply as possible: the world appears in the principle of consciousness. The body and consciousness are interdependent. As such, consciousness is time bound and conditional also. However, consciousness arises and sets in what you ultimately are, which is the time-less and space-less reality that contains both consciousness and absence of consciousness. Your real nature is prior to and beyond all notions and formulations. Therefore, all words and terms are limited and cannot be finally true. The fact that what you are can be pointed to as “awareness”, “being”, “emptiness”, etc., shows that the word is not the thing. In the end, you come to see that what you are is beyond all conceptual formulations, and hence beyond all mental categories and limits. This is why it is freedom.

[Deleted]

Your fundamental nature is utterly outside of and untouched by any concepts. There is no division in it, in fact. Only concepts (seemingly) divide anything. But concepts are concepts and not true. By projecting a sense of reality, identity or happiness onto concepts, one appears to "take onboard" the divisions projected by them. Seeing concepts as concepts (not true, not what you are), can there be any real division in what you are? See the truth of things. Only concepts can divide. But concepts are not true, so how can there be any real division? Understand this point. Until investigated, it is natural for these notions to grab one's interest. This stuff does not fall into one's lap. It is won by clear understanding and application of the pointers to one's experience. There is no division in your nature, and you are not divided from your nature. Thus, non-division rules the day. Everything else is just concepts. Ideas don't actually divide anything but other ideas. So all sense of division is "smoke and mirrors". Ultimately, reality exists beyond, outside of, or prior to the mind (the conceptual process). This reality is what you actually are. It cannot be defined, grasped or understood in the mind. You can use the mind to think about what you are, but you don't use the mind to BE what you are. There is no harm in using the mind, but you need to understand this critical point. Your real nature is not available IN the mind. Once this is understood, you stop looking for yourself there, and all comes to resolution.

thenaturalstate.info/

[silence]

Oct 15, 2013 12:07:50 GMT -5 maxdprophet said:

Your fundamental nature is utterly outside of and untouched by any concepts. There is no division in it, in fact. Only concepts (seemingly) divide anything. But concepts are concepts and not true. By projecting a sense of reality, identity or happiness onto concepts, one appears to "take onboard" the divisions projected by them. Seeing concepts as concepts (not true, not what you are), can there be any real division in what you are? See the truth of things. Only concepts can divide. But concepts are not true, so how can there be any real division? Understand this point. Until investigated, it is natural for these notions to grab one's interest. This stuff does not fall into one's lap. It is won by clear understanding and application of the pointers to one's experience. There is no division in your nature, and you are not divided from your nature. Thus, non-division rules the day. Everything else is just concepts. Ideas don't actually divide anything but other ideas. So all sense of division is "smoke and mirrors". Ultimately, reality exists beyond, outside of, or prior to the mind (the conceptual process). This reality is what you actually are. It cannot be defined, grasped or understood in the mind. You can use the mind to think about what you are, but you don't use the mind to BE what you are. There is no harm in using the mind, but you need to understand this critical point. Your real nature is not available IN the mind. Once this is understood, you stop looking for yourself there, and all comes to resolution.

thenaturalstate.info/

Extremely clear.

[Deleted]

"Nothing can be present if it is not an appearance in consciousness. So the consideration of the nature of consciousness and your relation to that is the heart of the matter. It is not about “realization” or “liberation,” as these are only additional concepts concocted IN consciousness. Once you clarify where you stand, you can then determine whether or not any liberation is needed. The recognition of consciousness is helpful to shed off grosser ignorance, but it is not final. In the end, even knowledge is ignorance. What is finally real is beyond knowledge. Knowledge and ignorance are a dualistic pair, and you stand beyond. There is no need to stop conceptualizing per se. The attempt to do so is another concept! But to see a concept AS a concept is the key. Ultimately, the recognition that “I am consciousness” is the first concept, the first reference point. Knowing that “you are” is an experience. You are, even before any experience OF that fact. You are to whom all appears, even the sense of being, the experience of consciousness. Therefore, you are entirely free of concepts, free of conditioned existence. There is only “one thing” that is outside of the domain of concepts, and that is your natural state. Ultimately, all words and concepts can only point to this fact. But you ARE this fact. It is the ultimate ground, the primordial requirement. It can be approached through the consideration of consciousness or being (among other concepts), BUT these are really sticks to stir the funeral pyre (of the imagined separate self). Then all the sticks (concepts) are relinquished. It is not a physical renunciation, but through understanding—the understanding that you “stand under” all, including the first idea. Then whether or not that idea is present is irrelevant. You abide as the supreme, unconditioned reality. "

It's amazing how many words in the above and the ideas being illustrated are exactly the same as what I'm hearing at this forum.

[Deleted]

You can only know what you are not. In attempting to know what you are, even the knowing is seen as not what you are. Then that is also discarded. In practice, it is shedding off the needless concepts and finding yourself unconditionally free of limitations. Even the attempt to know is felt as a constraint on your pure freedom. If this is not understood, you will keep descending to the mind level by trying to grasp in the mind what is beyond the mind. But once you have discarded the mind, consciousness, and even the seeming nothing at the root of those, reality remains. Keep in mind that “nothing” does not exist. There is no such thing as “nothing”. So, in understanding what “nothing” is, you transcend it, and there remains something that is not negated. (To speak accurately, what remains is neither “something” nor “nothing”, but words can only point, so we must make due.) It is purely non-conceptual, beyond words and thoughts, prior to consciousness, prior to nothing. All words fail for that which is prior to the mind. There is no “I” there and no demand to know. By definition, all questions are asked by and in the mind. You need to see the trap of trying to conduct this looking at the mind level. It can never work. You are and have always been prior to thoughts. The pointer to know oneself is naturally relinquished by considering the above points. Knowing is only suggested for one still identified with objects in consciousness. It is a provisional step. But once you have a sense of what you really are, the point is being that, not knowing that. Then it is only a matter of shedding off needless limitations. The attempt to know what you are is one of the needless limitations at that stage. Statements such as “I am that”, “I am awareness” or “there is no I”, etc., are still concepts, not reality. Many make such statements but fail to appreciate what is being pointed to as beyond concepts.

[Deleted]

Where you truly stand nothing has ever come to be. There, there is no more discussion of self and others, no concepts at all. There is absolutely no more bondage, limitation, conflict possible. Even the notion that “everything arises in that” is only pure imagination, mere empty concept. As if there were “things” to arise “in” a “that”. Even the encouragement to “stand as that” simply evaporates as meaningless. Those are the types of concepts being “sold” in the marketplace to “others” under the name of “truth”. It is only from ignorance, and keeps the basic ignorance in play. What I am saying here is only dismantling the false conceptualization (that is, seeing a concept as a concept and not taking it for reality). What reality IS, the nature of it, the positive side of it which remains outside of the false conceptualizing, is what this is really about. That is all that matters because that is all that there is finally. When that is all there is, one cannot even say it “matters”. Who would say and why? At this point all involvement in “spirituality” virtually ends. It is very often the case that what gets communicated and understood as “reality” is still in the domain of concepts and misunderstanding. Usually what is being suggested as ultimately real is NOT outside of dualistic imagination and conceptualization. Therefore serious consideration is needed to ensure that one is not falling into some conceptual notion of reality again.

uncanny.

John, are you watching the convos here?

[silence]

Nov 21, 2013 10:27:36 GMT -5 maxdprophet said:

Where you truly stand nothing has ever come to be. There, there is no more discussion of self and others, no concepts at all. There is absolutely no more bondage, limitation, conflict possible. Even the notion that “everything arises in that” is only pure imagination, mere empty concept. As if there were “things” to arise “in” a “that”. Even the encouragement to “stand as that” simply evaporates as meaningless. Those are the types of concepts being “sold” in the marketplace to “others” under the name of “truth”. It is only from ignorance, and keeps the basic ignorance in play. What I am saying here is only dismantling the false conceptualization (that is, seeing a concept as a concept and not taking it for reality). What reality IS, the nature of it, the positive side of it which remains outside of the false conceptualizing, is what this is really about. That is all that matters because that is all that there is finally. When that is all there is, one cannot even say it “matters”. Who would say and why? At this point all involvement in “spirituality” virtually ends. It is very often the case that what gets communicated and understood as “reality” is still in the domain of concepts and misunderstanding. Usually what is being suggested as ultimately real is NOT outside of dualistic imagination and conceptualization. Therefore serious consideration is needed to ensure that one is not falling into some conceptual notion of reality again.

uncanny.

John, are you watching the convos here?

Good stuff. "falling into some conceptual notion of reality again." is precisely what happens again and again until the whole matter leaves words behind altogether. In fact, I would even go on to say that one's spiritual search doesn't even really truly begin until this happens. Until one's relationship with thought is crystal clear and they no longer look to any description, conceptual puzzle or mental imagery for any sort of verification of anything about themselves and about reality.