Ruthless Truth

[frankshank]

If I had to place a bet on who has left their ego at the door it would be Angela. Michaelsees is so defensive and opinionated. You are growing on me Michael but Angela suggesting that both you and Stepvhen have woken up within the dream resonates with me. You don't seem open enough, you've figured it all out and to be blunt I think it's bull****!

[karen]

Jan 7, 2011 11:38:04 GMT -5 angela said:

oh karen!! i love you.

i'm going out on a limb here

I AM NOT ENLIGHTENED!!!

okay. your turn.

Just a friendly poke my dear!

[angela]

thanks, hon, i'm into it.

all i really know is that i don't know anything, which is why i have so many questions, and why i worked up the nerve to ask michael and stepvhen directly about the things i am curious about.

i automatically assume that everything and everyone is my teacher, and so my methods tend to have an underlying motive (playful, not malicious) to see what happens next.

i am so, so grateful for the change to dialogue about this stuff with people who share the same interests.

[karen]

Same here about not knowing anything. Though, I will admit that there is quite clearly an underlying assumption of knowledge of who and what I, the world, and others are.

I use to think this was a bad thing, but it's at least a step in the right direction. I can see that I'm carrying an unnecessary burden and am just looking for an opportunity to drop it when possible (though some are very sticky and it seems to take a while).

[stepvhen]

Good post!

I'd like to point out for the record. Liberation. No-Self is the first step. Angela.

. the deep, sincere curiosity about what remains is not evidenced in either of your dialogues.

This dialog is not about what remains. It is about liberation. You want an exploration of that I look at it in my blog. But what comes next is secondary. Delving into the rest of it, is for me, masturbation, when there is a whole world to be freed. My main aim is liberation, if no-one takes it any further themselves I'll be happy. Yes of course there is more here. This is not the end. I don't claim that it is. BUT. It is the vital first step and you CANNOT begin a journey by skipping the first step.

Primary Objective: Liberate the World.

Secondary Objective: Further.

It is not easy to drag yourself away from the journey deep into the heart of reality. But it has to be put on the back burner because it is just not important.

i wonder to myself where it is??

burningtruedotcom.blogspot.com/

There is a lot in there.

but each of your answers, in some way, appears to reference the mind - even if you don't see it clearly

No Angela no. You will find I have not given an answer. What is this supposed question even? When I looked at my experience of reality I reference mind and thought because I was being honest. It's not as though I don't have thoughts continually arising. follow that post through and I pin point the underlying reality. That the thoughts are without a thinker. I highlight the experience.

In general we are using language here so we are all talking conceptually. I'm doing my best to point to the experience of reality here.

but i wonder if you ever consider, even in the darkest, quietest moments of night, weather or not you're still lying in bed asleep?

Who wouldn't? Really. Can those thoughts be stopped? Do I question it lying in bed at night? Are you joking me?

I questioned it in this very thread. I put it to the test. I checked right here in front of you all. The day I stop challenging it and start to cling to it is the day I become a charlatan.

I didn't become the way I am because I'm a spiritual person. I had no investment in "enlightenment" or any spiritual mumbo jumbo. The very thoughts of it made me sick. I realised the lack of a centre in experience, not because I wanted to. I did it to try and disprove it. I did it to prove that there was a self. But I was wrong. There wasn't.

What are you really trying to say here? It looks like you are questioning whether no-self is the first step of liberation.

For the record. I'm liberated from self. I'm slowly moving through the rest of the process, but as I said. It is not my priority. It can't be. That's not to say it isn't high on my list. As I said earlier it is number 2.

I don't claim to be any more than liberated.

but liberation is being liberated from EVEN THE NEED FOR FREEDOM ITSELF

BINGO. Being trapped in some "liberated state" would still mean you are trapped.

This is why I laugh when people tell me I have a large ego. Of course I do. I have many large egos.

Being trapped in an egoless state is being trapped.

I wrote about this once. Liberation is not leaving the prison cell never to return. Liberation is where you can move between the cell the outside world and into any other cell of your choosing.

the more truth eats up our lives, the less we know, has been my experience, and the curiosity comes from a humbleness, and a humility - a willingness to not know, because truth is more important than anything.

I don't care for my life. I don't care for knowing. It doesn't bother me that I "know" less. Of course truth destroys what you know. Most of what I know is illusory and truth completely smashes it.
Without sounding corny. I've given up on wanting to acquire knowledge of the truth.
My only aim from that point of view is the experience of the truth. Truth meaning what is true in reality.

and all we find in truth is paradox, lack of reference point, inability to take a stand on right or wrong, inability to judge, and absolute inclusion of every single thing around (including the "lie of self") because the One Thing is Everything. and that means everything.

We only find paradox in truth when we come at it through some lens or point of view where we are trying to commoditise it and grasp it to add it to our bank of what we "know". There is no paradox inherent in truth. No paradox is inherent in reality that is not a direct result of our flawed attempts to own a conceptual representation of reality, to create duality.

What you are doing here is offering a conceptualization of "oneness" even that is useless. It's just a concept. Big deal. The experience of oneness is true. This concept you venerate here means nothing, it does nothing but promote laziness. It causes people to think "yes I understand the concept of oneness. I understand this." to simply collect concepts (which lead to more of the paradoxes you say are inherent in truth) rather than looking at the experience of oneness.

that is what happened with Michael above. He ignored the invitation to experience reality and instead threw out some lame concepts, claiming that he didn't need experience.

this little commentary is not coming from a place whereby i think i am better

I really hope not.

or believe i have an answer.

Again. the answer to what?

i just wish for a moment you could see clearly where you are the same. taking sides in any of this, and any spectators here who have done the same, are missing the point.

I really do think, you have misunderstood. I'm not taking a side. I'm not fighting to protect anything. I have looked equally at what Michael has said. I have. I have put what I said to the test too.

This isn't about taking sides. It isn't about right and wrong, they're just mental concepts, tools used to shape a statue of self in the mind of an animal.

This is about the honest experience of reality. Im here for truth. If someone could stand up and show me all this is wrong. I'd drop it all in a moment. Nothing is sacred, save the truth. Not me.

i heard a teacher once say that the most dangerous teachings are the ones that are the closest to the truth - because they have just enough wiggle room for the mind to camp out in emptiness, in no-thingness, in untouchability, in no-bodiness, no-self, witness etc. and it's very, very difficult to see that's where you're hiding because the sense of freedom is so vast.

Challenge everything. Again. Read my blog. Your view is based my actions here. My actions here are about liberation from self not about anything else but liberation from self.

It's why I'm here. Primary objective in all I do.

[stepvhen]

You doubt very much your own realization this is why you try so hard to help people to see something that you have not yet seen.

Yes. I doubt every concept. You think this is about conceptual certainty? Belief maybe?

No. It's about the experience of reality. Thats all. I do doubt it. I doubt it and I challenge it and then I doubt it again and I challenge it and I never just accept.

Acceptance without proof is belief. The moment you begin to become suspect of the proof for a thing. You need to investigate.

You see how you react when you do do not get what you want S?
This is exactly why I stopped engaging with you.
Then I gave you one more chance and you comeback with the same foolishness. Well enough of that.

I really do not like you. You're a Coward.

And for the record girls. I'm not enlightened

and to Karen. My motivations were purely egoic. I wanted to destroy a man because I thought he was weak. Turned out. I was weak

[angela]

thank you stepven, for your sincerity.

anything i said, i am aware, is not exactly true, nor can it ever be. but we talk between the lines as best we can, and i am very grateful for your post.

i had a reason, and a purpose, in what i said and how i said it. and the universe answers the call.

i have so deeply enjoyed looking into all this with all you folk this week. honestly. i have tears streaming down my cheeks as i type this, because my being is absolutely overflowing with the gratitude for this that we share.

i love you all and hope we can be a light to the rest of the world's suffering, as much as we are able.

[Deleted]

Benefit of the doubt is happening. Couldn’t this be a mechanics/misunderstanding…?

This is what I saw regarding this little ST duel between M and S. When offered the pistols, M chose from a grab bag of experiences he has had and laid a colorful one out there. S on the other hand typed out an experience he had while typing just then.

Then commenced some commenting on the content laid out in the text. Also, sort of typical back-n-forth hand-wringing.

RT folks strongly encourage writing while looking. That is, expressing oneself via keyboard while also paying attention to what is. That’s what S did. M did not, but it could be because he’s a slow typer or it could be because he didn’t understand S’ challenge.

Michaelsees, did you understand S’ challenge as showing some ‘typing while looking’?

BTW everyone, i am much less enlightened than thou. even less...

[michaelsees]

Hi Maxie man

Sure I understand ST likes to type a lot.(me too)
ST gave a onsite sort of what was going on for him as he typed. He made need some meds to take care of that going in and out.(jk)

Look I gave a little of my own awakening there's much more that I had to go through.
First understand I do not take anything seriously. I may act as if I do only because it's fun for me to do so. My motto these days if it's not fun I want no part of it. All is fine for me but the fun is great even when FrankS thinks I am defensive I had a hard time with my own laughter.

Ok here's my life in a nutshell(this word will get some millage) ever since I had my first awakening experience life changed in a big way for me. A huge burden was taken off my body/mind so much so I live my entire life now just doing one thing and this is all I need to do.
Really it's all anyone ever needs to do. I will share it here but the danger is it will sound too simple hence being overlooked.

All I do in my life now is wait to see what happens next. That's it. Life's a real gem in just doing that. I do not think ever about what I will do, have to do or whatever. My life these days is very much like going to a new play and watching to see what happens next except it's better than watching as it's inter-active. Well that's it and it's also the reason I really don't care what people say. All I do is watch and respond sometimes with no investment into anything.

So back to my nutshell. Only a couple of things in life are needed to be always content.
1. To know beyond any doubt there is no personal you.
2. Just wait to see what happens next.
If you have that much you have everything.

Michael

[Deleted]

Jan 7, 2011 14:06:27 GMT -5 @michaelsees said:

If you have that much you have everything.

Michael

<sound of buzzer, tires spinning>

?

"content" "everything"

does. not. compute.

+++

disappointed

[michaelsees]

It's Ok Maxie don't worry about the everything if it's true or not just my 2 things is important.

The mind simply does not wish to be found out so it will pick up on something just like you did.
Throwing out the bathwater with the baby

Michael

[Deleted]

"1. To know beyond any doubt there is no personal you"



Michael, you told a story about your 'personal you' from your 'personal you. ' It just so happens that the content of the story was about no personal you. the challenge was to show something from no personal you.

[michaelsees]

you missed it if you had the experience you would know that I was speaking about the relative you and the real you.
Anyhow Maxie if what I wrote helps then use it if not just trash it but just using your mind to think it through will do nothing for you

Michael

[stepvhen]

Jan 7, 2011 14:59:22 GMT -5 @michaelsees said:

you missed it if you had the experience you would know that I was speaking about the relative you and the real you.
Anyhow Maxie if what I wrote helps then use it if not just trash it but just using your mind to think it through will do nothing for you

Michael

So look at your experience of reality right now. Venerating an old short lived satori is of no good. It takes 10 minutes tops. It's not some mystical experience just look.


Stay Honest and simple. Only consider that which you can prove about your own experience. Only talk about what you can see. Just relay exactly what you CAN see honestly and completely. Really honest 100% honest be ruthless with yourself. Forget the easy option be honest and see. Realise that what you see is what you see and what you don't see is what you don't see. What is, is and what isn't isn't. That truth is your tool.

So no talk about your brain moving your hands. No talk about, "there must be X,Y,Z" if you can't see it it's not there in your experience. As in if you can't experience it it's not part of your experience. You can't see your brain moving your hand. You can only see your hand moving. ONLY talk about what you CAN see.

Just simple scanning over everything you can see. Discarding anything you can't.
What can you see? What is definitely there?

When you see there is no self, what then? What is there just a void? Look at what you can see. What is it that causes your thoughts? What can you see that is causing your thoughts? What can you see that is there instead of the self? What causes your body to act in the way it does? What causes your mind to act in the way it does?

I could answer that here with a concept. But this isn't about answers. It's about seeing.

You'll notice in mine I started talking about brain and thoughts and it got me nowhere. Its not the content thats important. It wasn't until I looked at where the thoughts were coming form I saw anything

[michaelsees]

ST when you do not insult I will respond to you.

What you ask is to only what's there or better yet what is present to me right now.

Okay I see exactly what I have always seen the only difference is the seer is no longer identified with a personal me. You heard the story before enlightenment and after you see the same speaking with eyes nothing apparent changes.

So I see my monitor, my dog laying on the floor as I type.

ST I am being very or in your words ruthless honestly here.

I will say one more thing and then frankly no offense but this kind of stuff gets old very fast for me so I will be taking a break with you and wish you the best in you moving on.

The whole change of seeing now vs before is there is now no rope of connection from the observer to what is being seen that part was gone a long time ago.

Sorry but playing this game like you do is for sure no fun. If I was seeking or searching then it would be different but as I am now it's not necessary and makes no difference at all if you believe me or not. I only ask that you learn you need not be so harsh in your delivery here.

So goodbye and goodluck
Michael