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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 4, 2019 1:40:34 GMT -5
I appreciate you asking this. It’s not something the intellect is going to achieve through thinking, but rather something that happens through willingness to feel. As far as processing, this willingness implicitly was not present during the unconscious mind identified state of our lives. So, one must first notice the unwillingness to feel what’s going on in our experience. Emotions themselves become layered by our minds over time. The inability to process the loss of a loved one as a child or young adult may manifest later in life as resentment, inferiority, anger, insecurity, etc. By going into those feelings, not with the intellect, but through feeling what it’s like to feel insecure, vulnerable, and even resentful or angry, the onion can start to peel itself. Underneath that type of energy you will find the emotions in their rawest form, like pain or grief. Bare in mind this whole process is prevented by the facade, which is the identity we create unconsciously to avoid what we don’t want to feel. So step one would be facade dismantling, which I can talk about more. Sure. Talk more. I'm aware of the tendency to suppress feeling. I don't call my response "releasing," but rather making room. You're never going to get rid of anger, fear, grief. They are as natural as the wind. For me it's a realization that they are part of the experience, to be accepted, felt. In actuality my practice helps me ride these waves of feeling. I am less likely to turn my back on them because of it. Yet I'm interested in your experience. I like to experiment so I'm listening. Only if you can, use examples, include yourself in these. It sounds less clinical, not like you're hiiding behind that facade. If you’re aware of the tendency to suppress feeling, then you are also aware of a feeling suppressed, which is its expression. The issue is that we become aware of the tendency to suppress feeling after we’ve already suppressed stuff for years and years. And so anger, fear, and grief, can take a great deal of clock time to cycle out of the system. Meaning, you can be aware of the tendency to suppress, but still be in the presence of a lot of unconscious emotions. These emotions require addictions in order to medicate them. Either other people who are willing to sacrifice their life energy so you can stay in addiction, or chemicals and meditative states. An issue I encountered and still see virtually everywhere is how anti-emotional processing the world we live in actually is. How many people who work at an office or school would be celebrated for crying when they felt sad? Virtually none. In fact, if you cried at work, in most places they would send you home and maybe even recommend you see a doctor. Most people fear even the grief of others, because it triggers their emotional stuff. There is a very real addiction that people have of wanting others to feel their emotions, wanting to cry in front of others, like a demented cry for attention, that doesn’t flow from humility but rather an identification with a victim role. This is a classical method of avoiding a true causal emotion, and something very easy for someone who identifies as a good listener to fall into codependent relationship with. In all honesty, I feel many who are writing on this forum are in addiction, and not coming from a place of authentically desiring to feel their emotions, at all, but rather, actively avoiding them through mutual co dependence that forums provide. When our families or jobs don’t meet our addictions, we come hear, to see if we can steal a little presence from him or her, or show this guy how enlightened I am. To continue such interactions is unloving to both oneself and the person you are interacting with, as these interactions serve to bury our true desires, that we avoid because we feel unworthy, or incapable. telling yourself you are worthy, when you feel unworthy, of course, isn’t a solution. It’s part of a diabolical facade designed to avoid feeling vulnerable. So, I mean, as an experiment, I would first look at desire. What do you want to do and why aren’t you doing it. If you’re already doing everything you want do, then why the anger, grief, or suppression. Whats going on that you don’t want to be going on, and how does this misalignment stem from your already suppressed feelings? And if you don’t have any passions, or desires, you could always pray. Prayer may seem to embed the delusion of separation, but if done authentically, from the heart, stuff arrives. This happens due to a oneness principle encoded into our programming. And I don’t mean to say prayer is necessary, but it could probably help people. The universe speaks, in sometimes not so subtle fashion.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 4, 2019 2:08:42 GMT -5
Jungs distinction between personal and collective unconscious is an excellent clarifying one. He mentions the collective unconscious can be a source of inspiration, but also mentions how people go stark raving mad during what seems to be an invasion from the collective unconscious, like schizos who are tormented by spirits. The bridge of course, is how personally unconscious or personally compartmentalized you are. People who are highly personally unconscious will have no clue they are actually puppets for dark forces. People who clear out at least some of their unconscious will become mediumistic to higher dimensional or vibrational energy, assuming they don’t use their will to shut down the gift, as most of us are trained to do at a young age. Have you read much about the Buddhist idea of "dependent (or interdependent) origination"? A quick google on that and "Jung" led to this (which gets to the point of why I've asked you the question): What you say about people labeled schizophrenic by the medical complex certainly tracks with my (limited) experience on the issue. Similar to E', I see a similarity in reflected meaning between ZD's term of "body intelligence" and these notions of a "collective unconscious" or interdependently originating nondual totality. Jung's treatment of the notion seems to me personalized, and I prefer the Buddhist version, which seems to me, to rather emphasize the totality. While I see the value in applying a conscious, logical and observational approach to these issues, I also perceive a flip side. There is a deeper, existential, and ultimately subjective meaning to be had by recognizing that the core issue here is ineffable. From that as a starting point, the method I'd recommend for exploring the underlying totality is very different, and I'd describe that as a Zen meditation, or, at least, a Zen-inspired and Zen-influenced meditation. That’s quite the link? When I have some free time. I prefer writing in the mornings when I’m processed through the sleep state but that ain’t happening these days. I think Jung is more than just a rare intellect, but a bridge builder between psychoanalysis and God. I tend to concur that he is not a feeler but more of a thinker, and it also seems he never got into the idea of disidentification as a means of curing the clinically insane. At the end of the day, people are scared of their emotions and this fears makes them, um, different. It makes them devolve, and so we need concepts like the facade to point out what’s going on. Devolving as a species is not a good thing, even though it can lead to greater consciousness, which would not have been possible but for the de evolving. Zen, well Zen has one big problem that I see and that is the power of lineage. Non fully conscious lines of behavior that elevates avatars and gurus and promotes group think and herd troughing. It’s a form of mind control, and not that far out of symmetry with what read you about bloodlines and the Illuminati. On core issue being ineffable. Yes that you are not the body appearing. Consciousness permeates creation. Great, been said a million times a million ways. But if you can’t understand how and why mind identification happens, which Zen doesn’t, it’s gonna hang around as a facade with an aroma that a sensitive nose can detect. I’m not here to tell you a sensitive nose is a good thing or that getting out of denial is gonna be a bed of roses. Check out Robin Williams. Had an outlet for energy. His addiction stopped being met, slit his wrists and hung himself. On the flip side, check out Brad Pitt. Quit drinking, started crying a lot after not crying for 20 years. One discovered a newfound willingness to feel things with removal of addiction. The other one didn’t. One chose to stop drinking. The other probably didn’t realize that even his outlet to entertain people was a form of escapism. So potato potato
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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 4, 2019 2:09:33 GMT -5
I just wondered because I once got doorstopped by a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses who spoke similar nonsense as you do. When I mentioned meditation they said it was dangerous as it could open the door to being possessed by demons. I sent them quickly on their way. I don’t think meditation is dangerous. I did it for years and used to be just like you.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 4, 2019 2:37:27 GMT -5
What if your attraction to thought free awareness was actually an attraction of a spirit to your body? Meaning you are attracted to thought free awareness by fear of your conditioning and a spirit is cloaking your body mind because you aren’t processing that fear. It's all you. If a malevolent "spirit" entered your consciousness it would speak with the same "in your head voice" as is always talking. Simply ignore that voice/thought as well and remain in Stillness/Source/Self. When complication and emotion arises, it is always just more thought. This is very simple. And incredibly difficult. If it’s malevolent and attempting to disguise itself, which most malevolent energy does, like a virus, yes, you’re right, most people have no idea how cloaked they are by spiritual energy. It’s not even them talking anymore, it’s the complex. I wouldn’t just ignore the thought, however, I would want to trace the invitation to the energy, which is personal emotions not being processed. Most of the time, we tend to be in addiction with such energy, however, as it often appears through what psychologists refer to as a compensation. Compensations make us feel safe. Ego really feels powerful and in control when it’s in attack mode. Ego also feels safe when it’s in being the universe mode. Both are avoidance mechanisms. If you break the addiction to compensation, you just may experience an invasion from the collective unconscious. Or obtrusive thinking. Which is witnessed.
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Post by satchitananda on Dec 4, 2019 3:58:23 GMT -5
I just wondered because I once got doorstopped by a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses who spoke similar nonsense as you do. When I mentioned meditation they said it was dangerous as it could open the door to being possessed by demons. I sent them quickly on their way. I don’t think meditation is dangerous. I did it for years and used to be just like you. I stopped meditating 10 years ago when I reached the end of practice, when it was no longer necessary.
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Post by laughter on Dec 4, 2019 4:51:56 GMT -5
Have you read much about the Buddhist idea of "dependent (or interdependent) origination"? A quick google on that and "Jung" led to this (which gets to the point of why I've asked you the question): What you say about people labeled schizophrenic by the medical complex certainly tracks with my (limited) experience on the issue. Similar to E', I see a similarity in reflected meaning between ZD's term of "body intelligence" and these notions of a "collective unconscious" or interdependently originating nondual totality. Jung's treatment of the notion seems to me personalized, and I prefer the Buddhist version, which seems to me, to rather emphasize the totality. While I see the value in applying a conscious, logical and observational approach to these issues, I also perceive a flip side. There is a deeper, existential, and ultimately subjective meaning to be had by recognizing that the core issue here is ineffable. From that as a starting point, the method I'd recommend for exploring the underlying totality is very different, and I'd describe that as a Zen meditation, or, at least, a Zen-inspired and Zen-influenced meditation. That’s quite the link? When I have some free time. I prefer writing in the mornings when I’m processed through the sleep state but that ain’t happening these days. I think Jung is more than just a rare intellect, but a bridge builder between psychoanalysis and God. I tend to concur that he is not a feeler but more of a thinker, and it also seems he never got into the idea of disidentification as a means of curing the clinically insane. At the end of the day, people are scared of their emotions and this fears makes them, um, different. It makes them devolve, and so we need concepts like the facade to point out what’s going on. Devolving as a species is not a good thing, even though it can lead to greater consciousness, which would not have been possible but for the de evolving. Zen, well Zen has one big problem that I see and that is the power of lineage. Non fully conscious lines of behavior that elevates avatars and gurus and promotes group think and herd troughing. It’s a form of mind control, and not that far out of symmetry with what read you about bloodlines and the Illuminati. On core issue being ineffable. Yes that you are not the body appearing. Consciousness permeates creation. Great, been said a million times a million ways. But if you can’t understand how and why mind identification happens, which Zen doesn’t, it’s gonna hang around as a facade with an aroma that a sensitive nose can detect. I’m not here to tell you a sensitive nose is a good thing or that getting out of denial is gonna be a bed of roses. Check out Robin Williams. Had an outlet for energy. His addiction stopped being met, slit his wrists and hung himself. On the flip side, check out Brad Pitt. Quit drinking, started crying a lot after not crying for 20 years. One discovered a newfound willingness to feel things with removal of addiction. The other one didn’t. One chose to stop drinking. The other probably didn’t realize that even his outlet to entertain people was a form of escapism. So potato potato Did you see the movie Jolie directed that portrayed them in the lead as a couple? It was an absolute masterpiece, and was sort of like a self-therapy for the two of them. You can see the suffering that's playing out in the relationship, painted, garishly, all over the screen. No wonder the critics hated it. No wonder it bombed. Yes, our opinions of Zen differ. I see your point about the cultural artifact it embodies, and in that it expresses a sort of paradox. But, you see, the purest form of the Zen meditation, which I think of by the term, shikantaza, involves sitting without rejecting anything that arises from within, but instead, remaining steadfastly present to it all. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, because, everywhere and anywhen you might ever possibly go .. there, You .. are. The height of self-honesty, my friend, is an empty room, and some clock time. .. ps: I think you'll find that Buddhist topic of dependent origination well worth your time ...
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Post by laughter on Dec 4, 2019 5:05:46 GMT -5
It's all you. If a malevolent "spirit" entered your consciousness it would speak with the same "in your head voice" as is always talking. Simply ignore that voice/thought as well and remain in Stillness/Source/Self. When complication and emotion arises, it is always just more thought. This is very simple. And incredibly difficult. If it’s malevolent and attempting to disguise itself, which most malevolent energy does, like a virus, yes, you’re right, most people have no idea how cloaked they are by spiritual energy. It’s not even them talking anymore, it’s the complex. I wouldn’t just ignore the thought, however, I would want to trace the invitation to the energy, which is personal emotions not being processed. Most of the time, we tend to be in addiction with such energy, however, as it often appears through what psychologists refer to as a compensation. Compensations make us feel safe. Ego really feels powerful and in control when it’s in attack mode. Ego also feels safe when it’s in being the universe mode. Both are avoidance mechanisms. If you break the addiction to compensation, you just may experience an invasion from the collective unconscious. Or obtrusive thinking. Which is witnessed. "The best defense is a strong offense".
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 4, 2019 6:05:31 GMT -5
Yup, mind-based formless dimension has structure and/or residue. Burning and/or collapsing it all gets messy, and thoughtful peeps don’t wanna go there, so they dream up all kinds of flawful logic to keep the agenda in tact. They tend to think the messy stuff is too radical when it’s purddy much where it’s all going, regardless of whether one’s sitting in silence, thrashing about verbally, walking and observing, etc. Lil’ do they know the end of all illusions is happening anyway, so might as well be fully conscious of it. Interesting, the resistance... Can you explain what you mean by a mind based formless dimension? Do you mean what our minds do with the idea of being the formless witness? Yes. It’s more or less a conclusion derived from a mental process. It’s not the same as what can be understood as “realization”.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 5, 2019 0:59:50 GMT -5
I don’t think meditation is dangerous. I did it for years and used to be just like you. I stopped meditating 10 years ago when I reached the end of practice, when it was no longer necessary. I reached a point where I stopped meditating because a still mind was my conditioned state. Then I started becoming conscious, which gave me a new understanding of meditation.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 5, 2019 1:25:08 GMT -5
That’s quite the link? When I have some free time. I prefer writing in the mornings when I’m processed through the sleep state but that ain’t happening these days. I think Jung is more than just a rare intellect, but a bridge builder between psychoanalysis and God. I tend to concur that he is not a feeler but more of a thinker, and it also seems he never got into the idea of disidentification as a means of curing the clinically insane. At the end of the day, people are scared of their emotions and this fears makes them, um, different. It makes them devolve, and so we need concepts like the facade to point out what’s going on. Devolving as a species is not a good thing, even though it can lead to greater consciousness, which would not have been possible but for the de evolving. Zen, well Zen has one big problem that I see and that is the power of lineage. Non fully conscious lines of behavior that elevates avatars and gurus and promotes group think and herd troughing. It’s a form of mind control, and not that far out of symmetry with what read you about bloodlines and the Illuminati. On core issue being ineffable. Yes that you are not the body appearing. Consciousness permeates creation. Great, been said a million times a million ways. But if you can’t understand how and why mind identification happens, which Zen doesn’t, it’s gonna hang around as a facade with an aroma that a sensitive nose can detect. I’m not here to tell you a sensitive nose is a good thing or that getting out of denial is gonna be a bed of roses. Check out Robin Williams. Had an outlet for energy. His addiction stopped being met, slit his wrists and hung himself. On the flip side, check out Brad Pitt. Quit drinking, started crying a lot after not crying for 20 years. One discovered a newfound willingness to feel things with removal of addiction. The other one didn’t. One chose to stop drinking. The other probably didn’t realize that even his outlet to entertain people was a form of escapism. So potato potato Did you see the movie Jolie directed that portrayed them in the lead as a couple? It was an absolute masterpiece, and was sort of like a self-therapy for the two of them. You can see the suffering that's playing out in the relationship, painted, garishly, all over the screen. No wonder the critics hated it. No wonder it bombed. Yes, our opinions of Zen differ. I see your point about the cultural artifact it embodies, and in that it expresses a sort of paradox. But, you see, the purest form of the Zen meditation, which I think of by the term, shikantaza, involves sitting without rejecting anything that arises from within, but instead, remaining steadfastly present to it all. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, because, everywhere and anywhen you might ever possibly go .. there, You .. are. The height of self-honesty, my friend, is an empty room, and some clock time. .. ps: I think you'll find that Buddhist topic of dependent origination well worth your time ...Watching Groundhog Day at the moment! I saw bits and pieces of the CIA one. I like Jolie, and Brads work speaks for itself. Zen, jeez, maybe I was harsh. A lot of my Zen understanding comes from Adyashanti, who is able to bridge through the nonsense more so than most teachers. Tolles quotes from zen and some of the stuff Zd shares from zen I also resonate with, so I don’t mean to dismiss it entirely. I’ve read Siddhartha great book. But like you mention, sitting without rejecting anything. The mind that could reject its own processes isn’t what you are, and so thought rejection can only happen unconsciously, like having a thought followed by the idea that the thought should not have happened. This type of split mind happens for emotional reasons, and when I see these emotional reasons bypassed in hopes that a still mind or oneness experience will solve a lifetime of compartmentalized thinking, my only suggestion is to stop bull sh.itting yourself. Maybe things need to get noisy for a while. As far as an empty room and self honesty. I’d much rather see how you react under pressure. How you’re doing when someone cuts you off in traffic. How you process the woman who spits in your food. Maybe you might agree that zen promotes pacifism. Or are we talking about the zen that includes Buddha’s decapitated head on a stick? Now, not to split hairs, I mean, maybe emotions should be processed alone in a room so as not to harm people. But staring at a wall and hoping for a oneness shebang and reverse compartmentalizing your way out of delusion are two different actions with two very different causes and effects. Agreed?
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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 5, 2019 1:26:18 GMT -5
If it’s malevolent and attempting to disguise itself, which most malevolent energy does, like a virus, yes, you’re right, most people have no idea how cloaked they are by spiritual energy. It’s not even them talking anymore, it’s the complex. I wouldn’t just ignore the thought, however, I would want to trace the invitation to the energy, which is personal emotions not being processed. Most of the time, we tend to be in addiction with such energy, however, as it often appears through what psychologists refer to as a compensation. Compensations make us feel safe. Ego really feels powerful and in control when it’s in attack mode. Ego also feels safe when it’s in being the universe mode. Both are avoidance mechanisms. If you break the addiction to compensation, you just may experience an invasion from the collective unconscious. Or obtrusive thinking. Which is witnessed. "The best defense is a strong offense". Tru dat!🤠
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Post by satchitananda on Dec 5, 2019 1:35:38 GMT -5
I stopped meditating 10 years ago when I reached the end of practice, when it was no longer necessary. I reached a point where I stopped meditating because a still mind was my conditioned state. Then I started becoming conscious, which gave me a new understanding of meditation. A still mind is beyond conditioning. There is nothing more conscious than being still, being wide awake to what you are. You stopped too early. Being fully conscious is like being asleep but fully awake. 31. "As the movement of the cart, its standing still and its being unyoked are to the passenger asleep in the cart, even so are action, contemplation and sleep to the Sage asleep in the cart of his body." From forty verses on reality Ramana Maharshi
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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 5, 2019 1:51:32 GMT -5
Can you explain what you mean by a mind based formless dimension? Do you mean what our minds do with the idea of being the formless witness? Yes. It’s more or less a conclusion derived from a mental process. It’s not the same as what can be understood as “realization”. Right. Realization that you know mind is nothing known by mind.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 5, 2019 1:55:41 GMT -5
I reached a point where I stopped meditating because a still mind was my conditioned state. Then I started becoming conscious, which gave me a new understanding of meditation. A still mind is beyond conditioning. There is nothing more conscious than being still, being wide awake to what you are. You stopped too early. Being fully conscious is like being asleep but fully awake. 31. "As the movement of the cart, its standing still and its being unyoked are to the passenger asleep in the cart, even so are action, contemplation and sleep to the Sage asleep in the cart of his body." From forty verses on reality Ramana Maharshi A still mind is you being conditioned to not think. Stillness is already conscious and transcends mind and thought. Somehow this hasn’t dawned on you yet.
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Post by satchitananda on Dec 5, 2019 2:01:29 GMT -5
A still mind is beyond conditioning. There is nothing more conscious than being still, being wide awake to what you are. You stopped too early. Being fully conscious is like being asleep but fully awake. 31. "As the movement of the cart, its standing still and its being unyoked are to the passenger asleep in the cart, even so are action, contemplation and sleep to the Sage asleep in the cart of his body." From forty verses on reality Ramana Maharshi A still mind is you being conditioned to not think. Stillness is already conscious and transcends mind and thought. Somehow this hasn’t dawned on you yet. A still mind has nothing to do with conditioning or thinking. How could it be. When the mind is still what is in the mind if it is still? What is the mind? The mind is just a series of thoughts appearing and disappearing sequentially. In the absence of thought there is only awareness, no conditioning, no thinking. If something is dawning on you then you are obviously not still.
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