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Post by laughter on Dec 1, 2019 6:25:27 GMT -5
(** tsk tsk tsk **) .. always so quick to get personal .. Non volitionally? shush now .. try to allow the thinking process to quiesce ... thinking about this won't help ...
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Post by tenka on Dec 1, 2019 6:25:56 GMT -5
That's just a clever mind spin. The seeker can always find a way to rationalize and reconcile their current sense of identity with what it is they think they're looking for. Worse yet, they might convince themselves they're not seeking. If you think that's just a spin then you're obviously still an SVP. If you speak to Enigma he'll tell you that it has to be seen through. I would also say that 'thinking' that one is not a SVP isn't the same as realising what you are, so anyone that searches for self or God or something that isn't present in their awareness has to have a sense of lack or separation .. in a way, lack cannot be felt unless there is a distance had between what you are and what you are lol .. I think the impermanence of this mind-reality will always bring the clouds in at some point, so the fullness of the suns rays will never be continuously felt .. But one needs the fullness of the sun realised primarily so when the clouds come, one won't have second guess if the suns still there ..
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Post by satchitananda on Dec 1, 2019 6:42:36 GMT -5
I would also say that 'thinking' that one is not a SVP isn't the same as realising what you are, Yes!
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Post by zendancer on Dec 1, 2019 7:17:39 GMT -5
I would also say that 'thinking' that one is not a SVP isn't the same as realising what you are, Yes! I think everyone here agrees with this.
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Post by satchitananda on Dec 1, 2019 7:33:54 GMT -5
I think everyone here agrees with this. It will take time to verify that with all 44 members.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 1, 2019 10:47:07 GMT -5
I’m still back in page 5, but I noticed a few posts about conscious thinking, what it is, and what it’s not, so I figured I would share my thoughts about that before getting back to it.
Obviously, everyone is sharing their thoughts on this thread. Thoughts are an expression of conditioning and conditioning can function both consciously and unconsciously. There seems to be confusion on that point. People who are attracted to a mind state absent thought may also be the ones most afraid of their own conditioning. So equating no thinking or less thinking with conscious thinking would be illogical. Conversely, the idea that consciousness can write a play without thinking, when the play itself is nothing more than thinking, is just goofy.
The crux of the matter boils down to unconscious thinking and what is left in the absence of that. To complicate matters, a true sage will explain that not all unconscious thinking is bad, degrading, or expression of a complex. In fact Jung wrote that the unconscious was a source of creativity and inspiration, or that during those moments of insight, a source seemingly beyond the relative conditioning, and yet not beyond the dream of form, may be acting to deliver those thoughts to the play writer. Like say, the spirit of Billy Shakes or suttin.
Unless of course we are talking about divine intervention, which tends to be, from the stories I’ve heard and experiences had, higher dimensional activity as opposed to God taking a personal interest in your life, which is to say, all experience is divine intervention.
Now, you may very well notice less overall thinking as you become more conscious. This can be manufactured through meditation practice or result naturally or automatically from being conscious of what’s driving your mind, particularly considering a primary driving force of ego is fear, that is to say, facade growth or maintenance . An enlightened facade is a tricky phenomenon to engage, or make conscious, because it’s a well defended fortress, has the capacity for double think, the tendency to attack when triggered, and the delusion of non separation to hide behind.
And so, unconscious thinking within the boundaries of the Id complex can be eliminated, and this is experienced as liberation of consciousness from mind identification.
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Post by satchitananda on Dec 1, 2019 11:00:57 GMT -5
People who are attracted to a mind state absent thought may also be the ones most afraid of their own conditioning. The reason there is an attraction to thought free awareness is that it is bliss, because bliss consciousness or transcendental consciousness is your natural state prior to mind and all phenomena. It's not difficult to show that long-term practitioners report a significant loss of their personal fears as they become increasingly connected with the ground state of Being.
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Post by enigma on Dec 1, 2019 19:26:25 GMT -5
I think everyone here agrees with this. Sure. Nobody's arguing otherwise.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 2, 2019 0:35:26 GMT -5
Yes that's true, but I'm wondering what the point is. Sometimes we act with deliberation and sometimes we just act without thinking and that's true for everyone. I think what zd is getting at is when thinking and action becomes effortless, natural and spontaneous, it seems like there is no one doing anything in a conscious deliberate way. It just flows. That's true, but I was referring to a cessation of mind talk. Mind talk is what I refer to as conscious thought (there is awareness of internal speech/thoughts about what's going on). It's possible for the dialogue to completely stop and to be fully aware of what's happening in total mental silence. That's what happened quite suddenly to Gary Weber and other people. For people pursuing specific meditative practices it can happen more gradually. Weber discovered that his ability to deal with work-related issues improved when the mind fell silent. That's what I was pointing to. Your definition of conscious thought seems like a lot of unconsciously driven stuff. To the extent mind talk includes self seeking, projection, self judgement, etc. - we might as well call that unconscious thought. This is a slippery slope of course, because no human is conscious of all the forces spawning thought intelligence, so there is a context in which all thinking is unconscious, I spose. I am sure we can all agree the issue of spiritual or emotional unconsciousness is directly linked to mind identification and psychic pollution. And so it’s probably a good idea to talk more about that.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 2, 2019 0:36:19 GMT -5
I concur with the idea that addictions are driven unconsciously, such that becoming conscious eliminates the compulsive need to escape emotions. What seems to be missing on this forum is a true understanding of what a personality addiction is and how it can manifest, and I think your point toward satsang addresses that. How many teachers curb the truth so it can be digested in order to profit from it? An addiction to approval masquerading as a non self is all too common. I wouldn’t say conditioning needs to be removed, however, but that unconsciously driven desires bring about degradation, both individual and collective, even if one can find relief through facade growth in pursuit of such desires. Meaning, the mind in the unconscious state equates freedom with escape from its own processes, so no matter what is sought, a mind state, romantic experience, drug, or material wealth, the end result is the same, a need for a new experience to seek and undue stress being placed on the emotional self. Being conscious of mind function curbs that, and also brings about alignment with value adding sequences, or what I might call true passions and a more fulfilling approach to life. You've written some good stuff, cowboy. Tip my hat 🤠 Howdy pahtna 🤠
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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 2, 2019 0:37:48 GMT -5
Pursue becoming more conscious? Emotional processing is going to play a big part in that, which can be pursued through noticing avoidance strategies, facade structure, etc. While it’s all about witnessing from the formless dimension, you can also see the delusion mind develops that it is the formless dimension, which appears because of unprocessed emotions and the compulsion to avoid them. Always liked Reefs' shorthand for this: "identity poker". I’ve played a few hands in my day 😂
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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 2, 2019 0:39:37 GMT -5
There can be thinking and silence at the same time. That's what Gary Weber was talking about. Going to work in the company he owned and created and having to make lots of decisions but nevertheless feeling fundamentally still. He still had thoughts but they became just the necessary thoughts he needed to get the job done without the repetitive, extraneous mental noise, which meant that a lot of the time he wasn't thinking. No, Weber was actually talking about total internal silence. The air traffic control supervisor that I've mentioned in the past encountered exactly the same thing, and unlike Weber he had not meditated for many years. Suddenly, in the midst of a serious crisis that needed resolution, his mind went totally silent, and he continued to function at a high level even though the internal dialogue had completely stopped. This event was so amazing to him (consciousness without any thoughts) that it subsequently prompted him to attend a TAT retreat and later a satsang retreat with an Advaita teacher. The first time it happened to him he was in an airport control tower at work and it lasted one day. The second time it happened was at the satsang when it lasted several days. People who pursue meditative practices such as ATA-T eventually can stop mind talk at will, but of course it isn't a"me" who does that. You mean people can not think when they don’t want to? Who woulda thought?
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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 2, 2019 0:58:32 GMT -5
So am I. But that didn't mean as MD of the company he sat silently and motionless in a chair until his staff began to ask if there was something wrong with him. To any observer he would have been acting and thinking, making decisions. But internally there was also total silence simultaneously with mnd. It is the end of any notion of doership. It's called sahaja samadhi. Well, SS can manifest with or without internal speech--reflective thought. Apparently, judging by the air traffic control supervisor's experience, even without SS the mind can also go totally silent. You are correct that Weber carried on as if nothing had happened, and no one noticed anything unusual about his behavior, but from his POV all of the usual internal speech that he was familiar with (the chattering mind that comments about whatever is happening) had suddenly gone silent and stayed silent. Many meditators have short periods of time when there is total internal silence, but it usually doesn't last more than a few moments at a time. Ramana stayed in deep samadhi so long that he told someone after he began speaking to people that it was as hard for him to think a thought as it was for most people not to think a thought. I don't remember if he said anything about this particular issue in the following years. FWIW, I've heard ND teachers tell seekers that it's impossible to stop thoughts from occurring. I always get a laugh when I hear that statement because it is definitely not true. It's not important either way because people can wake up regardless of the degree of internal speech, but the claim that no one can stop the arising of thoughts is false. THIS can do whatever it chooses to do via a particular body/mind.Yea minds do what they’re programmed to do. Sometimes, that means being quiet. But you know how to make eggs in the morning because you are running on a conditioned program. Many conditioned programs run unconsciously all the time. To the extent it’s laced with emotional self avoidance, its still the mind identified state. So, claims of mind talk versus no mind talk don’t essentially mean anything, because either one could be a lipstick wearing pig. Now, if your thoughts bring you suffering, you may prefer no mind talk. But the reason for the suffering is emotional unconsciousness, as opposed to thinking itself. Emotional unconsciousness can coagulate into a no mind having Enlightened facade, and so we should all keep an eye out for that in the only intelligence way. Become aware of how the facade is formed.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Dec 2, 2019 1:00:13 GMT -5
FWIW, I've heard ND teachers tell seekers that it's impossible to stop thoughts from occurring. I always get a laugh when I hear that statement because it is definitely not true. It's not important either way because people can wake up regardless of the degree of internal speech, but the claim that no one can stop the arising of thoughts is false. THIS can do whatever it chooses to do via a particular body/mind. Yes I agree. If I choose to, I can completely stop thinking for as long as I want. (without any effort). Not a single thought will arise. What I cannot tell you is who, how or why stops the thinking and starts it again. Um, it’s your mind that’s starting and stopping the thinking. And it starts and stops based on conditioning.
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Post by satchitananda on Dec 2, 2019 1:05:09 GMT -5
Yes I agree. If I choose to, I can completely stop thinking for as long as I want. (without any effort). Not a single thought will arise. What I cannot tell you is who, how or why stops the thinking and starts it again. Um, it’s your mind that’s starting and stopping the thinking. And it starts and stops based on conditioning. Absolutely. The next time you move your arm you will see there is no one doing it.
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