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Post by souley on Dec 6, 2009 8:52:16 GMT -5
Oh ZD, somehow it’s good to know it’s the same One who looks through ZD’s eyes as through Vacant’s. But I long to see it as clearly as you do. There’s something uncomfortable about longing, but then I’d rather that than oblivion! But maybe it is just a pointer. That there is a "One" that sees is as much an idea as everything else. It's a good pointer in contrast to the idea that we are all separate, but as a truth on it's own it might not be that helpful! These things just cannot be understood by thinking about them in my experience. Contemplating them might help unwind old ideas, but you cannot somehow strive to understand them. Understanding will come indirectly, through practices that has nothing to do with thinking
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Post by zendancer on Dec 6, 2009 10:53:08 GMT -5
Klaus: Awareness can exist without imagination, but imagination cannot exist without awareness. Every living thing has awareness. Even an amoeba is aware of its environment and interacts intelligently within it. Plants also have awareness. There is growing scientific evidence that many "higher" lifeforms (dogs, birds, cats, etc) have some rudimentary level of imagination, but only the most advanced lifeforms (primates, porpoises, elephants, etc) show a significant level of imagination. Humans, quite obviously, have the most advanced level of imagination of all living things that we currently know about.
If we shut down imagination and totally stop thinking, nothing changes as far as awareness is concerned. It is like turning off a personal computer in our heads, which is how the intellect can be conceived. I will now do this. Click! Awareness continues to see "what is," but now there is no imagination projecting anything. The eyes continue to see, the ears continue to hear, etc. The body can go to the bathroom, cook a meal, and continue to perform its ordinary functions just as before, but the world is totally empty of "things." Now there is only oneness--a unified suchness. Words and thoughts are gone. Most amazingly, "what is" continues typing words on the computer without subvocalizing the words or even imagining them. This is because the universe is innately intelligent and does not require imagination for most activities.
If you have ever taken a test using a tachistoscope (sp?), the machine that flashes six digit numbers on a screen for a fraction of a second to test one's vision, did you notice that there was not enough time to subvocalize the numbers or remember them imaginatively? No, you looked at the numbers, and then instantly wrote down what you saw. The same thing is true for speed reading. You look at a page full of words and instantly understand the meaning without subvocalization or imaginative transcription. There is no time to imagine anything. Direct comprehension occurs without imaginative translation.
A dog walks around a tree even though it doesn't think the word "tree" or think the thought "tree." It sees "what is," and responds appropriately. Imagination and thought are not necessary for 99% of the things we do on a daily basis. To verify this claim you would have to learn how to suspend thinking for a few minutes, but for someone who can suspend thinking indefinitely, this is a given.
Awareness for most animals is awareness of what we might call "the outside world." Awareness for humans is awareness of either that outside world or the inside world of images, ideas, and symbols. We have our personal computer screens in our heads that allow us to conjure up and see images, words, numbers, and other symbols. Our ability to imagine and think allows us to manipulate those projected simulations. The problem for adults is that we live glued to our internal computer screens and can't distinguish clearly between what is inside and outside. This is the reason that Zen developed a system of koans that can be used to test one's perception. I hold up my hand and ask, "What is this?" Most people don't know. They are so lost in their heads that they think it's a hand. I didn;t ask, "How may this be distinguished or imagined?" I asked, "What IS it?" If you see and understand what it IS, then you will answer in a different way in order to show that you understand the difference between the idea "hand" and the living truth.
Human awareness, therefore, can see the world as it IS (free of thought), or it can see what the mind imagines--a cartoon-like simulation of "what is." Does this help?
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Post by klaus on Dec 6, 2009 22:24:44 GMT -5
Zendancer,
That was my point when I answered Karen's question.
There has to be awareness prior to thought or non-thought.
Since there is only awareness.
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Post by vacant on Dec 7, 2009 7:50:15 GMT -5
Oh ZD, somehow it’s good to know it’s the same One who looks through ZD’s eyes as through Vacant’s. But I long to see it as clearly as you do. There’s something uncomfortable about longing, but then I’d rather that than oblivion! But maybe it is just a pointer. That there is a "One" that sees is as much an idea as everything else. It's a good pointer in contrast to the idea that we are all separate, but as a truth on it's own it might not be that helpful! These things just cannot be understood by thinking about them in my experience. Contemplating them might help unwind old ideas, but you cannot somehow strive to understand them. Understanding will come indirectly, through practices that has nothing to do with thinking Got you Souley.... Thanks Never anything to cling to I guess!
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Post by zendancer on Dec 7, 2009 9:40:11 GMT -5
When does hot become cool and then cold? When there is awareness. Klaus: I thought you were saying that hot/cool/cold come into existence as a result of awareness. I was making the point that if there is only awareness (non-conceptual awareness) there is no hot/cool/cold; there is only "what is" without distinction. Imagination is what generates ideas like hot/cool/cold (and the boundaries that separate them), and I thought that's what Karen was asking. This same issue is what prompted me to ask Louise, "Who makes inside or outside?" Without thought there is no inside or outside. It is our thinking that brings all distinctions into existence. Prior to acts of imagination what we see is unimaginable and unspeakable. As humans, have the choice of whether to see "what is" or to see what we imagine. The path of non-duality is the path of discovering that we are "what is" and not separate entities. I agree that without awareness there could not be hot/cool/cold, but that leaves out the intermediate step that you can have awareness without having hot/cool/cold. This is why I think a more precise answer to Karen's question is, "When there is imagination."
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Post by lightmystic on Dec 7, 2009 11:02:51 GMT -5
Vacant, The reason you want to have the same clarity as Zendancer is because of the feeling you get when he posts. That feeling is YOUR feeling. If you did not have the capacity to feel it you just wouldn't. So that means you are ready to have that experience. And, since that's come up as the next thing you want, that's the next thing to have. Now it's only a question of allowing life to open you up more to be able to integrate and stabilize the new knowledge this feeling brings....And that opening....is oblivion..... (or at least it can appear that way at first) Does that make sense? Oh ZD, somehow it’s good to know it’s the same One who looks through ZD’s eyes as through Vacant’s. But I long to see it as clearly as you do. There’s something uncomfortable about longing, but then I’d rather that than oblivion!
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Post by vacant on Dec 7, 2009 20:57:37 GMT -5
LM, ZD, how lucky can one be to post here and get 2 so different responses and be certain they come from the same source. One so very validating and encouraging me to stick with my approach and not look back, the other giving me the baseball bat whack across the teeth. Can one ask for directions and follow different paths with any chance of arriving at the ONE place? Earlier in life I used to absolutely stick to my chosen (?) way. I see in hindsight that while it was good for focus, in that process I unfortunately closed myself to mercifully offered opportunities, and when one shouldn’t ever regret the past, I hope I can be more open and welcoming now. ZD, For me, breath awareness is a method I have practised a fair bit (a lot) and it has become a default mode of signing off when I feel in trouble. Perhaps it should become default mode full stop! Being alone in nature is always wonderful when it happens but rarely available in my particular set of circumstances. Thankfully, the universal sound you mention is a dear old friend —being incarnated as a musician I have paid enough attention to it that now it calls me to attention on a near daily basis (bless) sometimes in unexpectedly noisy environments. Now the “look & listen” approach is entirely new to me and I have been playing with it ever since you joined this forum as a keen advocate for it. Pushed to no-thought it certainly stirs stuff. A few weeks ago, doing it in a crowded street I had a terribly dark vision — for probably less than a half second! Everything in the street, mostly walking people and cars, were uninhabited, total zombies, empty stuff, and I was so immediately scared in the gut that I made myself snap out of it. The vision has been haunting me since, I could dismiss it as hallucination or emotional imagination (it was so short) but I remember the advice you gave me for not ever second guessing myself — answers are for me to find but if you have anything to say about that it’s welcome — haha, I know you will, you can’t help yourself! LM, Oooh… Wow… OUCH!… are you sure?… you completely hit home, and then I have to learn to prefer oblivion. As ever you know where to press to touch a nerve (and very welcome). OF COURSE it makes sense. You know, when I get an answer that packs real punch it always hits like I feel I expected it…. Which tells me that somewhere in HERE there is sharp knowledge of Reality. I want to be with it. You’re good at stamping on castles made of sand, thank you for letting me bump into you… you know whom I’m talking to. Love to you too. Phew! Long post.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 8, 2009 12:53:12 GMT -5
Vacant: I suspect that what you had was what Zen calls a "confirmatory experience." When we make a serious effort to shift from imagination to direct perception, all kinds of unusual phenomena can occur. It is usually reflected in our dreams, but it can also occur while we're awake. I recall reading several accounts by people who saw and experienced unusual things while awake prior to big breakthroughs. I earlier mentioned my strange but brief experience of space starting to collapse after intensely staring at an airplane. I didn't know it at the time, but that was a confirmatory experience that indicated things were happening on a subconscious level of mind, and it was followed by a huge kensho experience. The fact that you saw a kind of zombie world might be the way that your subconsciousness chose to represent the deadness or falseness of consensual reality. In a very real sense the world that most people perceive is a kind of phantom world. This is purely speculation on my part, but it's based upon several experiences I had wherein my subconsciousness was more aware of what was going on than "I" was.
You mentioned "empty stuff" in your description, and the truth is indeed empty compared to the dreamlike world of separate things that most people take to be real. Seeing emptiness for the first time is often frightening and disorienting (even as a momentary mental projection), but fortunately that is not the whole story. It simply means that the artificial structure of thought that maintains a consensual view of reality is under pressure and may be starting to collapse. I would not be surprised if you had unusual dreams of the same sort. All in all, I take it as a positive sign that you are moving in the right direction. Breath awareness, looking intensely, listening to universal sound, feeling the body, and anything else that keeps you focused on direct perception and direct experience will keep you moving toward the direct realization of Oneness. Hang in there.
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Post by lightmystic on Dec 8, 2009 17:59:47 GMT -5
Hey Vacant, If it makes you feel better, fear of oblivion is as close as you can get to actual oblivion. When "you" drop off, you'll realized that you were never "you" in the first place. The idea of a separate you was just an idea the whole time. And it can appear scary, but it isn't scary in reality, and so gently being with the void, the fear, etc. can allow it to be recognized more and more as safe. It's not really void, it's just that the mind freaks out sometimes because it doesn't know how to quantify infinity. And that's fair, because infinity cannot be quantified or encapsulated. It has not edges. And, while it's perfectly safe, it doesn't provide anything for the mind to grab on to, and so the mind can worry about it a little sometimes. For what it's worth, it sounds like you are making wonderful strides forward, and I'm looking forward to hearing more about your experiences as things progress with you. In terms of paths, there is really only one path, and that is your path. It may look a bit like someone else's and it may not. Either way, life gives you bits and pieces of tools to try out, and I think just going with what works for you best makes the most sense. If you are getting freer and freer over time at a rate that you can appreciate, then whatever you are doing is good. If not, then you can find something that does work as well as you want it to. Anything that's resonates is certainly worth at try....but don't worry to much about paths, because you are on yours. Keep us updated! LM, ZD, how lucky can one be to post here and get 2 so different responses and be certain they come from the same source. One so very validating and encouraging me to stick with my approach and not look back, the other giving me the baseball bat whack across the teeth. Can one ask for directions and follow different paths with any chance of arriving at the ONE place? Earlier in life I used to absolutely stick to my chosen (?) way. I see in hindsight that while it was good for focus, in that process I unfortunately closed myself to mercifully offered opportunities, and when one shouldn’t ever regret the past, I hope I can be more open and welcoming now. ZD, For me, breath awareness is a method I have practised a fair bit (a lot) and it has become a default mode of signing off when I feel in trouble. Perhaps it should become default mode full stop! Being alone in nature is always wonderful when it happens but rarely available in my particular set of circumstances. Thankfully, the universal sound you mention is a dear old friend —being incarnated as a musician I have paid enough attention to it that now it calls me to attention on a near daily basis (bless) sometimes in unexpectedly noisy environments. Now the “look & listen” approach is entirely new to me and I have been playing with it ever since you joined this forum as a keen advocate for it. Pushed to no-thought it certainly stirs stuff. A few weeks ago, doing it in a crowded street I had a terribly dark vision — for probably less than a half second! Everything in the street, mostly walking people and cars, were uninhabited, total zombies, empty stuff, and I was so immediately scared in the gut that I made myself snap out of it. The vision has been haunting me since, I could dismiss it as hallucination or emotional imagination (it was so short) but I remember the advice you gave me for not ever second guessing myself — answers are for me to find but if you have anything to say about that it’s welcome — haha, I know you will, you can’t help yourself! LM, Oooh… Wow… OUCH!… are you sure?… you completely hit home, and then I have to learn to prefer oblivion. As ever you know where to press to touch a nerve (and very welcome). OF COURSE it makes sense. You know, when I get an answer that packs real punch it always hits like I feel I expected it…. Which tells me that somewhere in HERE there is sharp knowledge of Reality. I want to be with it. You’re good at stamping on castles made of sand, thank you for letting me bump into you… you know whom I’m talking to. Love to you too. Phew! Long post.
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Post by vacant on Dec 9, 2009 6:28:11 GMT -5
Ok, thank you very much guys. Will do...
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amy
New Member
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Post by amy on Dec 29, 2009 20:04:36 GMT -5
new here so hello to all ..
Before I read a book on awareness, spirituality etc I channelled more than one thousand quotes and wrote a book. All of which are based on MY perceptions of this physical and spiritual journey.
I have met many people who quote constantly and to be honest I see it many way.....but ultimately beyond WHY is this: They do not believe they can live up to the expectations they place upon others.
"What darkness holds no man should fear, for it is your thoughts that fill the darkness and your fears that give it substance" me - the connection and my belief there are no orignal thoughts
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Post by zendancer on Dec 29, 2009 21:46:20 GMT -5
Hi Amy, Welcome to the board. When you get a chance, tell us about your life and your perceptions of this physical and spiritual journey. How did you happen to start channelling and who, or what, were you channelling? What was the message?
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Post by lightmystic on Dec 30, 2009 10:50:25 GMT -5
Greetings Amy, and welcome. I definitely appreciate how expectations get in the way of appreciation. Appreciation seems to naturally result from seeing life clearly... What did you learn from the quotes you channeled? new here so hello to all .. Before I read a book on awareness, spirituality etc I channelled more than one thousand quotes and wrote a book. All of which are based on MY perceptions of this physical and spiritual journey. I have met many people who quote constantly and to be honest I see it many way.....but ultimately beyond WHY is this: They do not believe they can live up to the expectations they place upon others. "What darkness holds no man should fear, for it is your thoughts that fill the darkness and your fears that give it substance" me - the connection and my belief there are no orignal thoughts
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Post by circussmith on Feb 1, 2010 20:54:46 GMT -5
There is nothing new under the sun. Okay, that's a cop out. It's true but it's still a cop out. I can only speak for myself so, here I go. First of all, I personally do not assume the all those most people seem to accept as masters or teachers, actually are. My guess is some are, some aren't, some have stumbled onto a few solid ideas and are trying to get them out, some are simply spiritual con men. So unless I meet a person I make no such assumption. I have been fortunate enough to have met a few people who actually have Work so ingrained into them that they can invoke a real Teacher. I have met those who have actually awakened their machines. Let me stop for just a moment and say that I am using a terminology that I am familiar with, I am happy to try to explain what I mean if any of it is unclear. Of those who have actually managed to awaken their machines I have notice that none of them propose you spend your life walking around in that state. I have been told (here is one of my quotes) You don't need an archangel to wipe your ass. I know that my ability to sense such things is developed enough, after 30 years of practice, to actually recognize someone with true substance. Now, obviously, I cannot meet nor wish to, meet all those who claim or have others claim that they are teachers and masters. So, when reading their material I have to decide if it is first, and foremost, practical. If it is not something I can actually apply to my Work, it is of no use to me and therefore, of no interest to me. This doesn't mean the person that wrote is a fake, it just means it is of no use to me. Practicality is my main criteria. I approach this like a science, or a career perhaps. If I cannot get something usable, I move on. Speaking of practical, I have to leave now to go to a meditation with some friends. I find this very practical but it has, probably mercifully, cut my response short. cao for now It is easy to quote "masters" and "teachers" past and present as I have seen. Almost all members quote someone or other on paths to enlightenment as well as enlightenment itself. After years of inquiry and experiences I couldn't tell you what enlightenment IS, yet you quote "masters" and "teachers" as if they are the last word on enlightenment. When you read their works aren't you predisposing yourselves to their expierience of enlightenment and accepting their experience and subsequent discriptions as the final word? For example, "all arises in consciousness." What is consciousness? What if consciousness is something that arises? In what? In other words how can YOU be certain and don't say it's different for everyone that's like looking at a piece of art by ten people and everyone experiences something different. I would like to hear some original thoughts by members instead of just quotes. Klaus
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Post by karen on Feb 2, 2010 1:17:33 GMT -5
It doesn't matter to me which teacher is a phony or not. I don't care all that much. I have just made a vow with myself - that if I am ever put in a position whereby I would accept the role as teacher - that I wouldn't be bullshytting anyone - especially myself.
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