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Post by klaus on Nov 20, 2009 19:50:57 GMT -5
It is easy to quote "masters" and "teachers" past and present as I have seen. Almost all members quote someone or other on paths to enlightenment as well as enlightenment itself.
After years of inquiry and experiences I couldn't tell you what enlightenment IS, yet you quote "masters" and "teachers" as if they are the last word on enlightenment.
When you read their works aren't you predisposing yourselves to their expierience of enlightenment and accepting their experience and subsequent discriptions as the final word?
For example, "all arises in consciousness." What is consciousness? What if consciousness is something that arises? In what?
In other words how can YOU be certain and don't say it's different for everyone that's like looking at a piece of art by ten people and everyone experiences something different.
I would like to hear some original thoughts by members instead of just quotes.
Klaus
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 20, 2009 20:18:46 GMT -5
Ah! Who doesn't love a good poking?! Great to have you posting on the forum again klaus!
For me, there was an inner resonance, an inner, deeper recognition of what was being pointed to in the books I read and the lectures I heard that were beneath the words. They were what the words were pointing to. At first they were useful enough to tell me who was useful for me and who was not. But then I started to fully understand and experience for myself more and more. It seemed like each teacher was dropping experiential clues that pointed to it. And my favorite were when two teachers that appeared contradictory both resonated, because I knew they weren't contradictory, and that helped break down the mind and see the sameness in their teachings. Jed McKenna and Byron Katie were a great combination.... Eventually, I remember being a little shocked and a little disappointed to discover that none of the many teachers that I was reading was saying anything new. "They're all saying the same thing!" That represented a landmark of integration for me, and I knew that I could stop referring to the words of others for clues, because I knew what the clues were pointing at so completely that there was no longer any "draw" to keep searching.
In terms of quotes, I've noticed that many teachers have used analogies or ways of talking about it that match my experience, and I like the way they describe it, because it does a pretty good job. So I will use the words to describe my own experience, but then I also want to give credit to who wrote them, because I want to give credit where credit is due. That said, there are a lot of my own analogies and ways of talking about it that I use, and I always play with analogies based on my own experience, even if they are taken from someone else initially.
To address your example, Consciousness is not some high minded idea. It's simply and literally the act of perceiving. It's literally the process of being conscious. No more, no less. I like the word Awareness more, because I relate to it more. But the words say the same thing as far as I'm concerned. The process of perceiving, of being aware.
If there were something that did not arise within Awareness. That is, something that we could not be aware of on any level, then it may as well not exist. Right? I mean, that's obvious right? If Consciousness itself arose within something, we would never know. It would, literally, be outside our awareness, and we would never know.
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Post by vacant on Nov 21, 2009 8:16:35 GMT -5
Klaus, I very much agree that original thoughts are what’s most appreciated from members’ contributions.
But also I have original thoughts in defence of our quoting the masters. I find a lot of those quotes useful and welcome, the point being not to take them as final word on the unknown, but for teasing our resonance to them, to instigate closer intimacy with our Soul hidden beneath thought turmoils and pretend selves. It’s not really about the words those quotes are made of: I sense the author’s presence and intention to reach loaded on the words (or between). A vehicle for inspiration, Holy contact, but not the truth in themselves, not a valid definition.
I often get inspired and motivated to tune-in by such sentences, and welcome that as a blessing of sorts, a manifested and mirrored image of my deeper Self, then after a day or two these words don’t work their magic so much, like their “loadedness” has moved on because they are fixed words and Truth cannot be bottled in a sentence. Then perhaps another can come along for another tease from another angle, possibly saying the exact opposite but nonetheless working its transmission, a form of induction.
So for me it’s not accepting others’ experience and subsequent description as final word —I am past hoping there could be such thing)— it’s letting what’s within resonate when triggered, kind of like Truth in others giving a wink to Truth in us, or Truth —mercifully— calling Itself. For sure no definition to hold on to.
That said I enjoy reading your challenging of “all arises in consciousness” and also LM’s take on that. And thanks for giving me something to say!
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Post by Zendancer1 on Nov 21, 2009 9:35:12 GMT -5
Klaus: Why are you worried about other people and their thoughts? If you've been searching for a long time, haven't you had any experiences of your own by now? Stop throwing stones for a moment, and use the time you save to find out why the stone thrower wants to throw stones or who the stone thrower really is.
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Post by karen on Nov 21, 2009 10:30:45 GMT -5
I'd rather have truth warmed over than a new pack of lies.
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Post by klaus on Nov 21, 2009 15:05:57 GMT -5
Hello Lightmystic,
You say at first there was a resonance, a recognition in the words which pointed to something beyond themselves.
My question to you is did you experience that which was beyond the words before you read anything or after? If after, are you sure that what you read didn't predispose you to having experiences which resonated with what you read?
I agree all the writings basically say the same thing and they all bring you to the edge of the cliff, because once there the words are no longer of practical use in realizing THAT to which the words pointed.What does one do while standing at the edge of the cliff without being predisposed to what one has read?
In other words would you have recognized an enlightenment experience and would it have resonated with you if you were not predisposed to what you had read?
Regarding consciousness or awareness you say if consciousness or awareness did arise out of something we would never know it might as well not exist. But just because we are not conscious or aware of something and may not exist for you dosen't mean that something dosen't exist and you limit yourself to what you are conscious or aware of without being open to what you are not conscious or aware of that may exist.
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Post by klaus on Nov 21, 2009 15:29:32 GMT -5
Hello Vacant,
That's just it! As I replied to Lightmystic, they bring you to the edge of the cliff but once there they are of no practical use.
What if you discovered that everything you've read and experienced regarding enlightenment and resonated with you turned out to be false.
What would be the condition of your existence then?
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Post by klaus on Nov 21, 2009 15:33:54 GMT -5
Hello Karen,
Aren't you limiting yourself by your statement?
Don't you want to stand at the edge of the cliff and see what's beyond if anything?
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alpha
New Member
Posts: 7
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Post by alpha on Nov 21, 2009 15:47:52 GMT -5
Hello Vacant, That's just it! As I replied to Lightmystic, they bring you to the edge of the cliff but once there they are of no practical use. What if you discovered that everything you've read and experienced regarding enlightenment and resonated with you turned out to be false. What would be the condition of your existence then? Klaus, how did you first hear about the edge of the cliff, and if it turned out to be false, would your condition be different.
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Post by vacant on Nov 21, 2009 16:20:44 GMT -5
Hello Vacant, That's just it! As I replied to Lightmystic, they bring you to the edge of the cliff but once there they are of no practical use. What if you discovered that everything you've read and experienced regarding enlightenment and resonated with you turned out to be false. What would be the condition of your existence then? Right Klaus, they are of the practical use of bringing you to that edge, and that's it. That is very useful in my book. True, the rest is up to you, is always up to you —well, figure of speech, this, if we're to believe that free will is illusory; at this point I could not prove nor disprove such allegation, and it's another topic anyway! Acknowledging that my vision is clouded I thoroughly expect that everything I've heard or read about enlightenment and resonated with me will turn out to be false. As for what I've experienced, there is also a good probability I will have misinterpreted things as regrettably, I still show some degree of addiction to interpreting experiences. But I make good progress on the road to giving up on things making acceptable sense! Now about the condition of my existence then? I honestly don't know and it doesn't worry me. I welcome, dare I say invite, deconstruction. Not exactly without fright, but bring it on.
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Post by klaus on Nov 21, 2009 19:11:00 GMT -5
Hello Zendancer1,
I have had more experiences than you can throw a stick at, or should I say stone.
I am just inquiring.
As Lightmystic has said, to poke is to learn.
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Post by klaus on Nov 21, 2009 20:07:40 GMT -5
Hello Alpha and Vacant,
Alpha, the "edge of the cliff" thought came to me as I was questioning all my knowledge and experiences as if false.
And the condition of my existence was pure terror.
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Post by dramos on Nov 21, 2009 21:23:48 GMT -5
Greetings Klaus, I agree with the "original thought", I do not quote anyone cause I never followed anyone, so that which is written is from thy authentic self, from within.
Can you expand on "the condition of my existence was pure terror"?
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Post by someNOTHING! on Nov 21, 2009 22:10:14 GMT -5
I've always liked words/thoughts that trick/require one to step over and into a vacuum. People tend to follow the words/thoughts to that point where they stop making sense and then either quickly move on to something "more meaningful/safe", thus the ongoing adventurous play of life known as consensual reality, or they tend to stay with that moment where things/thoughts/rationales begin to break down and that clarity starts to present itself. Typically, words/thoughts are used to try to express something meaningful in a given context. Some wordsmiths are good at helping some people take a step further into that "unknown", what might be considered "transcending one's culture/worldview" (it does appear that there are many degress of this, mind you). Getting "your head" around an idea ofetn requires you to "think outside the box" (i.e.; various degress of headlessness) and try to see the greater context for what it is,,,,and this can go on and on (the path) until one stumbles over that cliff...FRICKIN' COOL HEADLESSNESS IN THE ABSOLUTE ABYSS OF MEANINGLESSNESS WHERE ONLY EXISTENCE WITH NO "OTHER" SEEMS TO MAKE SENSE YET STILL DOESN'T IN CONTEXTS, BUT STILL DOES BECAUSE IT IS, AND THAT'S JUST FINE, BECAUSE IT'S OOOOOH SO MUCH FUN TO PLAY WITH AND/OR WATCH. ;D Somenothing is happening as this journey into the interesting play commonly known as consensual reality where most people and animals, insects, flowers, streams, mountains, etc are playing their parts as best they can/must, not aware they are just locked into one of those views exhibiting some "degree of awareness of reality" type things which is just one aspect of the One Whole...eerr, something like that. Wake up! Be Aware As It All. Take the step, take the step, take the step.....OFF!! See what happens!! I sure as hell don't know!! Just See! I dare ya!! If you feel you've reached this message in error and you can't handle it/don't like it/or otherwise, please feel free to move on to the next interesting thing! HA! And yes Souley, wahooooooooo!!
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Post by karen on Nov 22, 2009 2:17:44 GMT -5
Hello Karen, Aren't you limiting yourself by your statement? Don't you want to stand at the edge of the cliff and see what's beyond if anything? I want to stop seeking without the discouragement aspect.
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