|
Post by karen on Nov 25, 2009 22:58:17 GMT -5
Why would you ever stop seeking until you've found what you are seeking? Basically, I tried to stop seeking because I was discouraged. Or rather I bought into an idea of discouragement which was some expectation of some sort I'd imagine.
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Nov 26, 2009 3:17:32 GMT -5
Hi Klaus,
Yes, congratulations! Smile, you’re getting what you’ve been asking for, though perhaps you just didn’t know what that’s been as you’ve been doing it! The path to Here is just this ridiculous!
Your perspective at this point sounds quite familiar in my experience. Something like, “So, I’ve gone through all of this and here I am. I’ve had this “shift in perspective” and suddenly I see all thoughts and ideas shared are bogus; they don’t add up (or break down) to ‘This’. No one understands. How can this be? Why is all this happening?” In a way, no “answers” really satisfy; there’s a black hole at the bottom through which all meaning disappears into, leaving you with What Is.
And then, as you begin to try to rationalize it all (in a way in which you’ve been enculturated, whatever that may be), all the answers are seen as just ‘that’, more thoughts/ideas about more thoughts/ideas, which in the end are all not truly ‘true’ either. Your very own rationalization/thinking that has been used to prop up your very own sense of self is seen for what it is. Empty. In a way, you sense all you ever held dear through and as the field of thought begins to crumble. Yes, the terror of being in the tiger’s mouth (check out some of Nasrudin’s tales!) You are going in the black hole. No fear, my friend, for in this way, you may truly begin to clean house, become more honest with yourself, feel ever more subtlety of the amazing drama of which you are.
Your memory of that “exceptional experience” will cause you to balk at a lot of things that used to captivate you in positive and negative ways, yet in the background there will be these little pockets of resistance that exist and/or are trying to take form (perhaps stronger old patterns of behaviours/identity/values/world views/ lesser desires). It may take some time to reconcile the “memory of the shift in perspective/exceptional experience” with those denser pockets of energy that are still playing out for what they actually are,,,What Is Playing Out. But, there’s some residue and “stickiness of thoughts” (aka, Klaus as a separate self) mentioned here on the board, so this continued falling apart can be a little weird, to say the least!
Then one day, at least in my experience, you begin to see that the “shift in perspective” IS the “exceptional experience”. No “other”. There’s not really any “perspective”, for that requires a bit of thought taking on the life of its own in the mind of a separate entity, so this is seen more as “witnessing” through a body/mind. It’s not really an “experience”, for that would require an “experiencer” (rational mind residue), so the field of energy being witnessed starts to appear more like a drama from which you are “detached”, yet highly participatory in. IT IS, but truly, only if Klaus isn’t separate yet still IS an important part of the Play. (Do I sound like an idiot, or what?! Haha)
That is, one begins to “understand” and be aware as that grand emptiness that the little you only remembers experiencing in that “shift in perspective” and IS ALWAYS HERE as a necessary aspect of the grand form of the “exceptional experience” which too IS ALWAYS HERE. There’s eternal stillness dancing (to play with a little ZD stuff) on the continuum of Nothing & Everything as One (to play with a little SN stuff), where resistances arise as a part of that eternal drama (to play with a little LM stuff), where the dream is real, but not as it's thought, yet is honestly felt through the senses (to play with a little anonji stuff) and where the magic and miracles of the Play are just so every day (to just play with stuff).
I/YOU wander in IT.
I/YOU wander as IT.
I/YOU wonder at IT all and may even ask,
“What IS next? “.
IT IS ALL something to do, or shall I say "done".
|
|
|
Post by lightmystic on Nov 26, 2009 12:14:22 GMT -5
Fair enough, but don't worry. Life has it in for you. The leap will be taken when you're ready, and you'll regret it when everything's falling apart. And then there will be peace. It's just timing and waking up is probably the hardest thing anyone will ever have to do. So definitely give yourself a break. You'll be there when it's time. No question. Basically, I tried to stop seeking because I was discouraged. Or rather I bought into an idea of discouragement which was some expectation of some sort I'd imagine.
|
|
|
Post by ventura23 on Nov 26, 2009 16:34:26 GMT -5
It is easy to quote "masters" and "teachers" past and present as I have seen. Almost all members quote someone or other on paths to enlightenment as well as enlightenment itself. After years of inquiry and experiences I couldn't tell you what enlightenment IS, yet you quote "masters" and "teachers" as if they are the last word on enlightenment. When you read their works aren't you predisposing yourselves to their expierience of enlightenment and accepting their experience and subsequent discriptions as the final word? For example, "all arises in consciousness." What is consciousness? What if consciousness is something that arises? In what? In other words how can YOU be certain and don't say it's different for everyone that's like looking at a piece of art by ten people and everyone experiences something different. I would like to hear some original thoughts by members instead of just quotes. Klaus I have come in the very end of all these conversations. I just want to say that many who consider themselves enlightened and use titles as masters and teachers are merely enlightened in an intellectual way. Louise
|
|
|
Post by souley on Nov 26, 2009 16:58:01 GMT -5
If anyone has any questions about falling apart, it is fresh in my memory What is fear really? It seems like some very very intense energy, but I can't find whats really bad in it. It is so totally consuming when it occurs that we can't really see it clearly at all. It is like it's so intense we just have to run, it is not possible to look at it. Thinking about looking at the fear would be like going insane. Which I obviously have done then. But I guess insane have to be redefined cause I'm acting pretty damn healthy. But when and if we do (look at the fear), the energy is ours again, and we LIVE! Hardest thing ever? Maybe. If you want adventure, you will get it:D But I have so much understanding for everyone who does not want to.. it is like pandoras box. On the inside, in your head, and no going back. On the other hand, I would not have it any other way. Not even enlightenment without the falling apart... Good to have you back SM!!
|
|
|
Post by ventura23 on Nov 27, 2009 17:06:19 GMT -5
If anyone has any questions about falling apart, it is fresh in my memory What is fear really? It seems like some very very intense energy, but I can't find whats really bad in it. It is so totally consuming when it occurs that we can't really see it clearly at all. It is like it's so intense we just have to run, it is not possible to look at it. Thinking about looking at the fear would be like going insane. Which I obviously have done then. But I guess insane have to be redefined cause I'm acting pretty d**n healthy. But when and if we do (look at the fear), the energy is ours again, and we LIVE! Hardest thing ever? Maybe. If you want adventure, you will get it:D But I have so much understanding for everyone who does not want to.. it is like pandoras box. On the inside, in your head, and no going back. On the other hand, I would not have it any other way. Not even enlightenment without the falling apart... Good to have you back SM!! ............................................................................................................. One can learn something about fear. it can be overpowering when it takes us over. If we are strong enough to keep ourselves from falling into it, we can learn it's source and that source only has power to pull us in because we have no faith.. If we had faith it would have no power over us. "Where there is faith, there is no fear"."
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Nov 28, 2009 4:38:38 GMT -5
Hi Souley,
Hey, it’s great reading what you’ve contributed recently. I sense a cleaning of the window for a more unobstructed view, and the subsequent depth of Play that is spontaneously arising. Interestingly, I had actually started to write something to Klaus about opening a discussion with you considering the proximity in time of events.
Yea, like you said, fear can be quite interesting when seen for what it is. I sometimes express the pockets of energy as like a set of chain reactions that ends up playing out as a separate being’s “world-view”, which then often requires a set of rules which is essentially fear-based (exhibiting degrees of unawareness) and basically “of the world”. Simply stated (perhaps too simplistically), “people are unaware that they are unaware, thus the limited world-views of what “infinite” IS.
In a way even one’s concept of “fear” can be misguiding and/or something of which people truly don’t understand the depth of manifestation. Before consciously recognizing/labelling “fear”, the phenomenon seems to manifest first as unlabeled feelings of which we are usually unconscious (otherwise it wouldn’t register as such). That is, people in general are unaware that they are unaware of their feelings and thus get caught up in “the things of this world” at various levels of unawareness. It IS quite simple, but the hard thing is to become more aware of the simplicity.
This, I feel, is an important message of the “pointing” found on this board in various ways. I sense that some often get caught up in the words (they are fundamentally dualistic, and furthermore, they are expressed and then interpreted to exchange a meaning in the given context….yes, as best they can) in ways limited by their world view, thus misunderstanding what they are “pointing to”, something beyond words and even beyond (or within?) the context/world, as it is "known". Feeling is of a different nature; and that includes the feeling labeled as fear. There’s nothing wrong with the feeling itself, it’s the “being afraid of being afraid” that kind of starts to create the whole “thought process” (that's OK too) that starts to take on a life of its own, a somewhat “false and/or second-hand identity” that tends to like to control things through various techniques the separate self has mastered to preserve and keep in tact that sense of “limited self” and personality. A separate entity starts trying to control the wholeness of life of which those actual feelings are just a natural part. But again, we are unconscious of the actual connections/feelings, avoiding/denying what IS (not being honest). By trying to “consciously rise above/escape the feelings/control” (ironically, at various degrees of unawareness) we actually limit our ability to be open and vulnerable to the very manifestation of Life As It Is… the pain of being unaware and therefore “of the world”.
The fear seems so real, and people can’t understand why other people, who don’t have the same fear, just don’t understand. These people who seemingly don’t understand might be others who have different fears and just can’t understand yours, or they might be those that understand where you’re at and are trying to help you move through that density (or even a combination of both of these), and then there are those who Understand and may be holding a mirror in your face (arseholes!! haha). But the fact is you’re the one enraptured by the fear’s seeming reality “in this world”, the limited world view, and therefore ARE embodying fear, preserving it. Sometimes, it’s hard to be honest about that.
Have you ever asked someone why they are so afraid, and then they explode screaming they are not afraid? That fear of fear seems even more intense, and raises brows. This, too, can get even more intense when one’s awareness starts to become more conscious of these unconscious strategies that have been used to avoid/deny these unconscious feelings throughout one’s life. That might be when the “freaking out” truly manifests in so many ways. That intensity goes on and on over a period of time, seemingly like it may never end…oh the dread. That also seems to be why the whole process of seeking truth can seem so miserable and people often won’t even admit it, much less deal with it, and the escaping begins (more dishonesty and separation…layer after layer). Sorting through the layers, the previously accepted limited separate self just dies a slow agonizing death at ever deeper degrees of awareness seeing through and through what it is, and understanding what it is not. Is that why the “darkest hour” seems to be just that?
At first, when you notice how overwhelmingly fear plays such a part in people’s limited view and attempted escapes from what IS, it makes you want to rant and proselytize! Haha, but eventually you just begin to see that that too, as well as even the desire to rant and proselytize, indeed, all that is manifesting Is Life Manifesting As It Is. This can not be arrived at intellectually, no matter how well it's put into words.
Life, as people “in and of” the world know it, appears to be an ongoing tribute to their unconscious unawareness of the desire to fully surrender to What Is. Unexamined, it feels like pain and suffering, and is feared (not clear and therefore misunderstood). Life As It Is, includes all this carrying on, but the people living in though not necessarily of this world are conscious of the pain and suffering as it arises and Understand, genuine compassion and freedom bubbling up in so many different sorts of phenomena.
Looking at IT, somenothings in the dream appear to be doing this, while others in the dream appear to be doing that.
What a trip.
|
|
|
Post by klaus on Nov 28, 2009 21:29:22 GMT -5
Lightmystic, someNothing, Zendancer,
I appreciate all of your responses. In some way your words have gotten "under the skin" so to speak.
There is some clarity now. In addition to the "everyday mind" there seems to be another "mind" that is intruding spontaneously with insights to areas of resistance I have to the non-consensual reality and when that resistance is relaxed I get a glimpse( for a few seconds) of what IT IS.
Although this glimpse of what IT IS is of short duration I also feel IT beneath the surface.
There still is the terror I experienced but not as powerful.
Thanks again for sharing your words( or should I say what's behind them) have made a difference.
|
|
|
Post by souley on Nov 29, 2009 15:43:46 GMT -5
In this process of terror, I have found many strategies etc that I at different times thought helped me to surrender, or handle things. But I don't know if it really has any effect. It seems time is the key factor after things have started to fall apart. Like when you learn some skill, you can practice and practice, but you still have to wait a while for the brain to "re-circuit" itself. For example you might take a break from some activity, just to come back later with renewed clarity and perspective, even though you didn't practice in any way. The learning process just goes on in the background. It seems practice (conscious surrender of resistance) is good, but time is key.
For me the terror just goes up and down, with a steady trend towards stability. It simply was worst at first, and it gradually gets better. Now I'm kind of used to the process, and the cycles aren't so bad. But I guess stability will not be found until " " happens.
Do you think we are experiencing the same thing klaus? You can read some of my initial problems in the "spiritual experiences II" thread.
|
|
|
Post by souley on Nov 30, 2009 12:03:27 GMT -5
One can learn something about fear. it can be overpowering when it takes us over. If we are strong enough to keep ourselves from falling into it, we can learn it's source and that source only has power to pull us in because we have no faith.. If we had faith it would have no power over us. "Where there is faith, there is no fear"." I don't think I know what faith is, I have no religious background to relate to. I don't (and did not) believe in the Christian version of god that I learned about while growing up, but I do believe in life, the universe, love, and a lot of other stuff If that counts as faith then sure. But I think faith is only truly satisfying if you KNOW it to be true. And a word like faith, probably means very different things to different people.
|
|
|
Post by lightmystic on Nov 30, 2009 12:23:22 GMT -5
You are quite welcome klaus! Glad to hear it. That IT that you feel is more real than anything else. It just needs to grow with your warm, gentle attention. The fear, as I'm sure you've gathered by now, will not hurt you, and will subside in time as you realize that safety in IT over time. Let us know how it goes! Lightmystic, someNothing, Zendancer, I appreciate all of your responses. In some way your words have gotten "under the skin" so to speak. There is some clarity now. In addition to the "everyday mind" there seems to be another "mind" that is intruding spontaneously with insights to areas of resistance I have to the non-consensual reality and when that resistance is relaxed I get a glimpse( for a few seconds) of what IT IS. Although this glimpse of what IT IS is of short duration I also feel IT beneath the surface. There still is the terror I experienced but not as powerful. Thanks again for sharing your words( or should I say what's behind them) have made a difference.
|
|
|
Post by ventura23 on Nov 30, 2009 14:31:00 GMT -5
One can learn something about fear. it can be overpowering when it takes us over. If we are strong enough to keep ourselves from falling into it, we can learn it's source and that source only has power to pull us in because we have no faith.. If we had faith it would have no power over us. "Where there is faith, there is no fear"." I don't think I know what faith is, I have no religious background to relate to. I don't (and did not) believe in the Christian version of god that I learned about while growing up, but I do believe in life, the universe, love, and a lot of other stuff If that counts as faith then sure. But I think faith is only truly satisfying if you KNOW it to be true. And a word like faith, probably means very different things to different people.
|
|
|
Post by ventura23 on Nov 30, 2009 14:38:13 GMT -5
Hi Souly I responded but my post is not showing. It shows that I posted top of the page, but, it did not. I wrote from myself, if try to repeat now it will be second hand, so I will let it go for another time. Thamk you for your reply. Louise
|
|
|
Post by klaus on Nov 30, 2009 19:03:27 GMT -5
Lightmystic,
I feel more comfortable with IT then I have in a long, long time. This crisis I was going through over the past few months came to a head with my experience of terror.
The best way I can put it is the stronger the resistence the stronger the terror, the weaker the resistence the weaker the terror.
In the end no resistence, no terror.
I am also feeling this joyous humor back in my life.
|
|
|
Post by klaus on Nov 30, 2009 19:18:02 GMT -5
Zendancer,
Being a scientist you're familar with the" scientific method." I'd like your take on the possibility of applying the "scientific method" to the enlightenment experience.
Might there be a single method where enlightenment is verified no matter how many times that method is used, since there are so many methods now and none of them are 100%
Or am I talking apples and oranges?
|
|