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Post by someNOTHING! on Nov 22, 2009 3:05:30 GMT -5
Hi Karen, Typically, you can only want what you don't have, thus the dizziness of the search. You know it all along and it's frickin' funny as shiboola when you figure it out!
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Post by karen on Nov 22, 2009 11:04:33 GMT -5
I figure I best just hang on if you know what I mean. I've tried to stop seeking before. It didn't go so well.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 22, 2009 13:04:17 GMT -5
It is easy to quote "masters" and "teachers" past and present as I have seen. Almost all members quote someone or other on paths to enlightenment as well as enlightenment itself. After years of inquiry and experiences I couldn't tell you what enlightenment IS, yet you quote "masters" and "teachers" as if they are the last word on enlightenment. When you read their works aren't you predisposing yourselves to their expierience of enlightenment and accepting their experience and subsequent discriptions as the final word? For example, "all arises in consciousness." What is consciousness? What if consciousness is something that arises? In what? In other words how can YOU be certain and don't say it's different for everyone that's like looking at a piece of art by ten people and everyone experiences something different. I would like to hear some original thoughts by members instead of just quotes. Klaus Klaus: SomeNothing provided some highly original words that describe what's going on pretty well. Here are some other thoughts: I, for one, don't care what consciousness or enlightenment is. Although I've written thousands of pages about those subjects, they're just words, and they can either be a hindrance or a help. The best advice is not to get attached to any particular words and stay focused on direct experience. From reading your post it appears that after doing a lot of inquiry and having a lot of experiences, you've either gotten stuck, hit a dry spot, started second-guessing yourself, or come to the edge of the cliff. The best advice is to totally accept your situation, stay focused on "what is," and stick with it. From your perspective it may appear that you have a choice about what to do, but you don't, and even this doesn't matter. This is a drama and the body/mind you're identified with has got to play a particular role in it. If, as one of your other posts implied, you're experiencing existential terror, then this could be a good sign. FWIW some folks in England have been collecting accounts of mystical experiences for over a hundred years, and they've sorted them into various categories according to what apparently precipitated them. The number one situation preceding mystical experiences is utter despair or existential terror. I would never have guessed this because all of my mystical experiences have followed either meditation or being in nature (numbers three and four on the list if I remember correctly). To put this in perspective, sex is number twenty-seven on the list. (I'm sorry I missed out on that one. Sex PLUS a mystical experience might make for a very memorable day!) AAR, if your situation is despair or terror, good things may be coming your way, and jumping off that cliff may be closer than you think. We start off on the spiritual path for various reasons. Some of us want to directly experience God. Others of us may not even believe there is such a thing as God, but we have various existential questions that we need to find answers for (and that leads us to God in a roundabout way). For whatever reason we start down this path, we don't know what we'll find, but we intuitively sense that something important is out there (or in here) waiting to be found that we think might satisfy us. Along the way we have various experiences and our understanding changes in many ways. If we're lucky, we see through a lot of illusions, and find a lot of the things that we were looking for. If we're extremely fantastically unimaginably lucky, then we find EVERYTHING we were looking for, and our search is over. What do we want to call that endpoint of the search? "Freedom?" "Enlightenment?" "Awakeness?" "Christ Consciousness?" "Unity?" "Non-dual abidingness?" "Everyday life?" These are all words that point to that state of non-seeking. Most people whose search comes to an end (and I include myself in this group) say something equivalent to, "Our ordinary everyday life, itself, is the endgame." We say this because the play goes on, and it is a lot more like play than ever before. We go about doing whatever it is we have to do in the here and now (where else could we do it?) pretty much as before, but without most of the blinders we once wore (I say "most" because for all we know there may still be some blinders that we don't know about). The past and the future no longer hold nearly as much interest as before, and physical possessions have almost no attraction at all (except when they do). We look around, and we see both the relative and the absolute, but we don't dwell upon either aspect of our being. We live in a don't-know state of mind, and we're comfortable with that. We know that who we are is unknowable, and we are happy with both our unknowingness and the unknowability. We laugh a lot, and we feel an incredible amount of gratitude. Our only real prayer is, "Thank you, thank you, thank you." We are content to be puppets in a puppet show, and we do not mind having someone else pulling our strings. We know that there is no escape from the tribulations of life, but we have no interest in escaping. In fact, most of us dearly love "what is" (except when we don't--when physical pain, for example, is unbearably intense). For us, the world is perfect even though we may work to change it in various ways (I pick up trash along the roads where I walk, but the trash was part of the perfection before I picked it up, and the perfection is still there after I pick it up). Many of us like to talk about the spiritual path and non-duality, but none of us know what effect our words will have upon other people. We do it because that is what we have to do. We hope it will help, but that is not up to us. Many of us, no matter how much we understand, enjoy hearing other people talk about this path because there is no end to what we can learn. Someone else may have a more effective way of pointing at the truth, and we get a big kick out of hearing how they do it. Although words can never be a substitute for direct experience, they can be helpful as pointers, and we can be grateful to the teachers and writers that pointed us in the right direction and taught us many things. Suzanne Segal's book, "Collision With the Infinite," as one tiny example, showed me that what I was looking for had to be here, in the present moment, and not somewhere in the future. This shifted my focus considerably and was a big help. Other books had other beneficial effects. The bottom line is that if you find what you're looking for (whatever that is), you'll be able to relax and go live an ordinary life just like everybody else. Unlike everybody else, however, you won't be lost in the usual dream of consensual reality; you won't be seeking anything; and you'll find the drama of life highly amusing. The biggest laughs you will have will come from laughing at yourself. Best of luck.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 22, 2009 14:13:03 GMT -5
Klaus: In my previous post I wrote, "We know that who we are is unknowable." A better way to have written this is, "We know that who we are is unimaginable." The difference is subtle but significant. Changing the last half of the sentence corresponds to, "and we are content with our unimaginableness." ZD
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Post by someNOTHING! on Nov 23, 2009 0:45:43 GMT -5
Quite ordinary, yes. Extraordinary! Yes, that's it! Why people just can't think "it" for what IT actually IS. Thought is often just too culture-bound and words are just too slippery to hold for long. Existence IS. www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=extraordinaryI saw an extraordinary show on black holes the other day with beautiful photos, amazing stats, wicked animations and all the scientists stating their claims and explaining their take in the language/tone they chose. Some were interested in the theory that a black hole may be at the center of our very own Milkyway galaxy, while others were not so keen about it. That is, some were just expressing without much fear/worry and a "whaddayado" attitude that we're likely to go down that hole and we don't really know what that means, so let's continue checking it out and let's see what we can see,,,,,,while others were building it up as if it really meant something that were all going to die in like 100 million years, or something. The latter seemed to be saying something like, "Screw that black hole business....maybe we can design a cosmic plug by the year 2, 012, 201, 201, 220 and just avoid the whole show." Anyway, I drifted with the whole notion as they were carrying on and on, relating the ideas presented to the experience of psychological death and how some people get it to some extent and others don't to other extents. Then there was a animation of people swimming and/or kayaking upstream trying to avoid going in the black whole, all thge while slowly being dragged down into it......smile. There it was, a certain degree of understanding mirrored in the animation. Great drama,,, but only if the body/mind has eased up a bit and started to enjoy the ride of infinite eternity (you're right, it does sound cliche). [In a boardwalk caller-with-a-megaphone voice] Tickets!! Get your popcorn!! Step right up and take the plunge!! That's right folks, Life's living you, so take a look!! Step right up!! Get your popcorn,,,ice cold drinks!! Tickets to Here where you don't exist!! Take a real look and POOF, you're gone!! Just one look per person!! Tickets!! So, as I've once alluded to, if you don't really know where you're really from and, subsequently, you're not really sure about where you're going, trying to know where you're at also seems kind of pointless. You might get into the ballpark like, "Oh, I'm here in existence", or "I'm in some dimension of reality", or "Whoa, this ain't Kansas", but it won't really help you much as that too all slips between the fingers eventually, and you just end up trying to explain it all away, hedge against reality, and all the rest. Nothing wrong with trying though! Eventually, you'll just get reeeaaaalll tired of that. Another way might be to try just being what you are where you're at,,,,as if you might have had a choice. Eventually, even that notion just wears off, and you just are where you're at. Either way, the questions seem get more and more real through the process of life when you're conscious of it, the weight of being something can get lighter and lighter and lighter,,,,, until POOF!.......and I quote,,,,,,,,"Bwaahahaaaa haaahahaha! WAAAHaaHaaaaa!! WWAAAAHHHAHAHAAAAHAAA! I was/am such an idiot!! WTF was that all about!!?? HERE IT IS!! ALWAYS." Eventually. It's All Good. More words for the dung heap!
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 23, 2009 11:10:59 GMT -5
Hehe....good stuff.... Quite ordinary, yes. Extraordinary! Yes, that's it! Why people just can't think "it" for what IT actually IS. Thought is often just too culture-bound and words are just too slippery to hold for long. Existence IS. www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=extraordinaryI saw an extraordinary show on black holes the other day with beautiful photos, amazing stats, wicked animations and all the scientists stating their claims and explaining their take in the language/tone they chose. Some were interested in the theory that a black hole may be at the center of our very own Milkyway galaxy, while others were not so keen about it. That is, some were just expressing without much fear/worry and a "whaddayado" attitude that we're likely to go down that hole and we don't really know what that means, so let's continue checking it out and let's see what we can see,,,,,,while others were building it up as if it really meant something that were all going to die in like 100 million years, or something. Screw that black hole business....maybe we can design a cosmic plug by the year 2, 012, 201, 201, 220 and just avoid the whole show. Anyway, I drifted with the whole notion as they were carrying on and on, relating the ideas presented to the experience of psychological death and how some people get it to some extent and others don't to other extents. Then there was a animation of people swimming and/or kayaking upstream trying to avoid going in the black whole, all thge while slowly being dragged down into it......smile. There it was, a certain degree of understanding mirrored in reality. Great drama,,, but only if the body/mind has eased up a bit and started to enjoy the ride of infinite eternity (you're right, it does sound cliche). [In a boardwalk caller-with-a-megaphone voice] Tickets!! Get your popcorn!! Step right up and take the plunge!! That's right folks, Life's living you, so take a look!! Step right up!! Get your popcorn,,,ice cold drinks!! Tickets to Here where you don't exist!! Take a real look and POOF, you're gone!! Just one look per person!! Tickets!! So, as I've once alluded to, if you don't really know where you're really from and, subsequently, you're not really sure about where you're going, "knowing" where you're at also seems kind of pointless. You might get into the ballpark like, "Oh, I'm here in existence", or "I'm in some dimension of reality", or "Whoa, this ain't Kansas", but it won't really help you much as that too all slips between the fingers eventually, and you just end up trying to explain it all away, hedge against reality, and all the rest. Nothing wrong with trying though! Eventually, you'll just get reeeaaaalll tired of that. Another way might be to try just being what you are where you're at,,,,as if you might have had a choice. Eventually, even that notion just wears off, and you just are. Either way, the questions can get more and more real through the process of life, the weight of being something can get lighter and lighter, until POOF!....and I quote,,,,,,,,"Bwaahahaaaa haaahahaha! WAAAHaaHaaaaa!! WWAAAAHHHAHAHAAAAHAAA! I was/am such an idiot!! WTF was that all about!!?? HERE IT IS!! ALWAYS" Eventually. It's All Good. More words for the dung heap!
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 23, 2009 11:30:54 GMT -5
Hey klaus, Sorry for the late response. In response to your question, I spent quite a lot of time avoiding my experience because I didn't want to believe it. It was on the subtle level, perhaps akin to imagination, and it was experiences of different things that were "not possible," me considering myself a rational objective person. Eventually, however, as the experiences got a bit clearer over time, I had to admit that, if I was truly being rational and objective, then there WERE these experiences going on and I couldn't deny them. I was reading spiritual literature at the time of the admission, but the experiences I was having was very different than what was described. I did not really understand what was being talked about, and I knew it. And these experiences, while kind of flashy, were unrelated to that. Later on my experience grew and I spent a great deal of time denying the parts of it I wasn't comfortable with. I read about it, recognized it as my own experience, and then subsequently rejected it, as it was too big and real for me to actually accept at the time. After some more time of the experiences getting increasingly clearer, I found I related MUCH more to what was being talked about in the books and I wanted to deny the experience, but the experience was too strong to deny very easily. And it ended up hurting a lot. From there, I finally had some direct guidance, and it showed me where to look. And I was finally willing to be honest with myself about the experiences, if only to end the pain of denying my feels so intensely....I opened myself to feel whatever it was innocently, no matter what it did or did not look like. I was more afraid of getting Enlightened than not getting Enlightened (and I think that everyone is), yet Enlightenment was my single minded pursuit. When an experience is there it is felt viscerally, gut level (even if subtly). Who cares if it's "real"? Putting attention on it over time makes it more concrete, more solid. And it's not what you think, it's not what we imagine it looks like, but the feeling is there. It's just a question of being honest with oneself. And it's a noticing what's already there in your experience. It's always something less in the way, or a recognition of what is already there, not some magical additional thing popping up. Enlightenment is nothing like you have read, but also everything like you have read. That's because it's an accurate description, but not at all in line with one's conceptions of what one reads. I cannot say that Enlightenment is like anything I've ever read or will read in a book. It wasn't the words I was resonating with anyway, but what was underneath the words....What the words were pointing to. That's the value (at least for me) of seeing it described so many different ways - it points to the common theme. And my favorite is when they are equally valid ways that appear to be totally contradictory. My favorite set of apparently contradictory, yet completely clear descriptions, are Jed McKenna and Byron Katie. When you are talking about consciousness or awareness, you are talking about the mind/thoughts. You only RECOGNIZE being aware of what your thoughts tell you you are perceiving. All the while, you are perceiving all of Creation happening simultaneously. And, of course, the mind cannot process that (it's actually it's job to appear to limit perception). So we think that we can not be aware of everything all at once while simultaneously being aware of everything all at once, even as we think that thought. You could say that it's simply letting go of identification with the mind that let's one recognize (on the level of the mind) of what they are already perceiving. But it has to be a direct recognition of direct experience. In other words, it has to be 100% honest, or it's not real. There is no pretending this. If anything, it's UN-pretending for the first time in our lives. A mind that recognizes how life really is is a happy mind. And part of that means recognizing the minds real function - which is infinitesimally small compared to what we think (what we think being that it's the only thing, and that it can somehow discern truth. ). The mind is so small compared to the whole reality.... Hello Lightmystic, You say at first there was a resonance, a recognition in the words which pointed to something beyond themselves. My question to you is did you experience that which was beyond the words before you read anything or after? If after, are you sure that what you read didn't predispose you to having experiences which resonated with what you read? I agree all the writings basically say the same thing and they all bring you to the edge of the cliff, because once there the words are no longer of practical use in realizing THAT to which the words pointed.What does one do while standing at the edge of the cliff without being predisposed to what one has read? In other words would you have recognized an enlightenment experience and would it have resonated with you if you were not predisposed to what you had read? Regarding consciousness or awareness you say if consciousness or awareness did arise out of something we would never know it might as well not exist. But just because we are not conscious or aware of something and may not exist for you dosen't mean that something dosen't exist and you limit yourself to what you are conscious or aware of without being open to what you are not conscious or aware of that may exist.
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 23, 2009 11:31:39 GMT -5
Why would you ever stop seeking until you've found what you are seeking? I figure I best just hang on if you know what I mean. I've tried to stop seeking before. It didn't go so well.
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Post by Peter on Nov 24, 2009 9:37:23 GMT -5
Wooo, I go away for a long weekend and come back to find it's all kicked off!
Nice one, Klaus.
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Post by klaus on Nov 24, 2009 14:57:51 GMT -5
Dramos,
When I got to the "edge of the cliff" I knew I couldn't go back, nor could I go forward because there was nothing in front of me. If I went forward I felt I would have been annihilated. In other words there was nowhere, nowhen, no how-nothing out over the edge of that cliff and that's when there was only terror.
Now I'm like someone on a vast ocean in a dinghy(without oars)watching the shore of the land I knew receding and me drifting endlessly.
someNothing,
As I related to Dramos, I am drifting endlessing. I cannot stay with the meaningful/safe life of consensual reality. It seems to me that things broke down but so far no clarity.
I've had this experience of" isness" and still fall into that state on rare occasions but to me it's just another experience to file away.
Zendancer,
You may be right. I might be stuck, hit a dry spot, or am second-guessing myself. I do know I came to the edge of the cliff and you see where it's gotton me.
What got me started on the path was this innate feeling there was more then met the "eye" and found out there was. My experiences range from the psychic through non-duality. You say that ordinary life is the endgame and to view it as a play whether from a relative or absolute viewpoint. Like being played by the play so to speak.
I can't be comfortable with being played by the play; content to be a puppet in a puppet show. It sounds too much like fatalism with an optimistic twist. I want to know what IT is and maybe know what we are thru knowing what IT is.
Lightmystic,
These experiences you've had and are having without being predisposed to spiritual literature (left to your own evaluations of them) how can you be sure you're enlightenment experiences are valid other than having them verified in spiritual literature.
It seems like it's circular.
Karen,
I know it's hard to stop seeking once you know there's more, but are not sure what that more is.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 24, 2009 21:03:43 GMT -5
Klaus: From your last post it is obvious that you're in the tiger's mouth whether you like it or not! (Smile) You'll never be comfortable with ordinary life until you have found what you are looking for. It is only after you find IT, and lose yourself in the process, that you will be happy being nobody. You will then be a finder and not a seeker, but you won't be "Klaus." "Klaus" can only be a seeker. Best wishes.
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Post by klaus on Nov 24, 2009 22:59:48 GMT -5
Hello Zendancer,
What a coincidence you mentioned the tiger in your post.
Here is what I wrote in May of this year.
No Return
Call it enlightenment, spirituality, higher states of consciousness, what we seek is that state of Being in which we can only be silent.
So why are there all these current books, practices, masters who claim to know the way regurgitating the "old" words and actions ad nauseam and we in turn do the same. Above all why do we think the "path" is like a romp through a flowery field, all light and joy? Have we really thought about what we ask for when we seek enlightenment, spirituality, higher states of consciousness, that state of Being....?
We are so desperate to be saved from the meaningless life we percieve ourselves to be living; we take our first oblivious step on the "path."
We have entered the Tiger's territory. The Tiger senses our movement and we sense the presence of the Tiger. This is not what we expected when we first started on the "path." Remember, flowery field all light and joy?
We know we are being stalked; there's no turning back. The only question left is, when will the Tiger strike? And the Tiger will devouring us into "nothingness."
This is the "path" of no return, called enlightenment, spirituality, higher states of consciousness, that state of Being in which we can only be silent, literally.
I wrote this after I had a dream of a tiger stalking me with no escape in sight, so I lay down and as the tiger was about to sink it's teeth into my neck I woke up.
Thanks for your insight.
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Post by lightmystic on Nov 25, 2009 0:21:18 GMT -5
Hey Klaus, Well, the point I was making was that you have to be honest with your experience. The actual desire to be open and honest about your experience, no matter how subtle or how expanded it is leads to recognition of what is going on. You can fake it to the world, but you cannot fake it to yourself. In the end, either there is honesty or there isn't. Honesty gets you there, dishonesty gets in the way. So if your experience of is of That, even if it's subtle, then the honesty about that moves you forward. If you don't know, then you can keep looking into until you do. But the admission that you don't know (if that is, in fact the case) is the honesty that lets you keep looking until you do know, and so on. The earlier experiences I had, while very mystical, were not it. And reading many different spiritual books and meeting with many different masters confirmed that. When I got it, bouncing it against others who got it helped it solidify and make the mind happy so it could relax and let go. Once the physical change happens, then it's only a matter of time until the mind lets go, but having intellectual knowledge helps recognize what one is seeing and helps the mind relax into the Nothingness sooner and more comfortably and easily. The final change that ended individuality was very life altering. It needed no external verification, although verification was appreciated. If you read enough about it you get a sense of it. But in the end, the question is whether it's nondual, and whether it's abiding. Understanding what those terms mean fully, and then seeing honestly whether they apply makes it a rather easy test. Too simple if you ask me, but that's what it is. There is certainly deeper understanding and more after that, but it is more just commentary and deeper knowledge/insight into the same thing. For me, after that point, all new knowledge and such expanded the detail of the knowingness already there instead of replacing it as "false knowledge" as prior to the shift. Does that answer your question? Lightmystic, These experiences you've had and are having without being predisposed to spiritual literature (left to your own evaluations of them) how can you be sure you're enlightenment experiences are valid other than having them verified in spiritual literature. It seems like it's circular.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 25, 2009 9:52:51 GMT -5
Klaus: I loved your tiger dream story. It reveals what's going on below the surface. Yes, the tiger/the Absolute is after you in the same way that you are after it. It is two sides of the same coin. During my first mystical experience it felt as if something had physically grabbed me and wrenched me through an unknown doorway into another world. I had thought that I was searching for IT, but IT had also been searching for me. Hang in there. After the tiger gobbles you up, you will be happy to have been eaten. BTW, one of my friends became tiger food after he desperately started praying, "Help! I don't know what to do next." ZD
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Post by Portto on Nov 25, 2009 19:23:36 GMT -5
BTW, one of my friends became tiger food after he desperately started praying, "Help! I don't know what to do next." ZD Funny thing is that Life itself is saying "Help"! Why is Life playing this game?
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