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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2015 9:09:26 GMT -5
I'd never throw rocks at you laughter, but I have to ask you this one question. If you say you cannot rely on experience, then what else is there to rely on? If you are realized, the question doesn't arise, but if you are not, you cannot rely on the natural state to supersede experience if you have not yet realized it. But don't worry, the cosmos isn't that cruel. There is a get out of jail free card and you know what that is. I never wrote anything approaching the idea that one can't rely on their experience. Try to address the words on the page rather than what you imagine the words to read. There is no such thing as someone who is realized, and of course you're not throwing rocks at me, you're throwing rocks at some cardboard cut-out of me you have in your mind of a guy who thinks he's self-realized. Yeah, that was me.
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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2015 9:24:25 GMT -5
The voicing of disagreement here need not equal personal conflict, and as I see it, so long as the focus is upon the ideas expressed and off of the particulars of the one expressing them, any conflict that arises should remain restricted to the divergence of ideas. Yes, absolutely, I couldn't agree more. What tends to happen here is that ideas are ascribed to an individual that the individual disagrees are his or her expressions, and that's when things start to get personal. That's a good point. That actually seems to hap...., I mean, occur, on a regular basis for me. Almost always, it seems like a purposeful distortion.
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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2015 9:35:55 GMT -5
The new guys will learn to love us cuz we're just so irresistibly adorable.
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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2015 9:45:26 GMT -5
Yes, absolutely, I couldn't agree more.What tends to happen here is that ideas are ascribed to an individual that the individual disagrees are his or her expressions, and that's when things start to get personal. I was saying something different actually; "addressing the particulars of the one expressing the ideas" was indicating personalized assertions like: Figgles and Andrew have brain freeze, etc. etc. If one is wrongly ascribing ideas to another, it's entirely possible that it's due to a misunderstanding rather than an outright lie for the purpose of conjuring up conflict. In the case of the 'carrot' business, it's honestly been my understanding that E's stance IS; the message of no separation, no person, no free will is distasteful to the self identified. ie; There are no carrots there for peeps. Those ideas ARE distasteful, and some other ideas are yummy. (Does freedom from suffering sound familiar) So why would you conclude that I'm saying there are no carrots there for peeps? That seems like a purposeful distortion. As for the brain freeze thingy, you and Andy were both seriously oblivious that day, and then it changed shortly thereafter. I'm beginning to suspect that you two mimic each other unconsciously, but it's just a working theory.
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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2015 9:53:34 GMT -5
That's a lie. I've never put forward that idea. A lie? A little dramatic, doncha think? AT worst, I've misunderstood. If so, please explain how: Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/search/results?where_board_subboard=7%2C8&where_category=1&where_without=6%2C2%2C5%2C3%2C4%2C1&what_at_least_one=carrots&what_all=carrots&when_days=2000&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0#ixzz3TduT4PXpAre you or are you not, in the quote above, saying there that most seekers are not interested in nonduality for the reason that it does not offer enough enticement? Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/search/results?where_board_subboard=7%2C8&where_category=1&where_without=6%2C2%2C5%2C3%2C4%2C1&what_at_least_one=carrots&what_all=carrots&when_days=2000&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0#ixzz3TdoRya45Again, correct me if I'm wrong, please, but aren't you saying there that nonduality doesn't offer much in the way of carrots to the seeker? Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/search/results?where_board_subboard=7%2C8&where_category=1&where_without=6%2C2%2C5%2C3%2C4%2C1&what_at_least_one=carrots&what_all=carrots&when_days=2000&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0#ixzz3Tdoop2H2And above, you seem to be saying that actual/true Freedom, Peace, Enlightenment are not viewed as enticing, are not really wanted by seekers...? Where is 'the lie'? The lie is that I said nonduality is free of carrots, when you clearly know I didn't.
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Post by figgles on Mar 9, 2015 10:09:40 GMT -5
I was saying something different actually; "addressing the particulars of the one expressing the ideas" was indicating personalized assertions like: Figgles and Andrew have brain freeze, etc. etc. If one is wrongly ascribing ideas to another, it's entirely possible that it's due to a misunderstanding rather than an outright lie for the purpose of conjuring up conflict. In the case of the 'carrot' business, it's honestly been my understanding that E's stance IS; the message of no separation, no person, no free will is distasteful to the self identified. ie; There are no carrots there for peeps. Those ideas ARE distasteful, and some other ideas are yummy. (Does freedom from suffering sound familiar) So why would you conclude that I'm saying there are no carrots there for peeps? That seems like a purposeful distortion. As for the brain freeze thingy, you and Andy were both seriously oblivious that day, and then it changed shortly thereafter. I'm beginning to suspect that you two mimic each other unconsciously, but it's just a working theory. They are not distasteful at all to one who is suffering deeply and is absent any form of self love. Nonduality puts forth the message that 'there is no person/no doership' and to someone mired in suffering who really never like himself much anyway,the idea of somehow reaching a place where all that bizness falls away and he is free from the suffering attached it, sounds like a dream come true. If one is interested enough in noduality that they're buying into the ideas, (no separation/no person/no free will) there is obviously something enticing about the idea of those absences, or the interest would not be there. Nondual teachings are pretty clear on those points. And as for the 2nd bolded bit about Andy and I....? Yer imagining things that suite and support a particularly story you enjoy telling.
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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2015 10:12:38 GMT -5
If all movement suddenly stopped, and started again, where would be the record of that stopping? We can't. Do you really think that our consciousness looses the perception completely and Can it again start with the new perception? Why not? Seems to me that's what happens after a good night's sleep, so why isn't it possible for everybody all at once?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 9, 2015 10:19:20 GMT -5
Yes, very much misunderstood.. it is life changing, and yet nothing changes.. it is not monumental, in the instant of the experience that reveals that oneness and separation co-exist simultaneously there is a profound relaxation.. the seeking is over, the living begins.. and, it is as before the experience, but now there is genuine curiosity about what is actually happening.. Your explanations of getting to the mountaintop, the pinnacle of clarity from where all life goals can be seen and where it is perfectly revealed that the whole is made of parts and from where living begins and that there is such a thing as cosmic consciousness and Cosmic Memory .... is what I characterize as a monumental experience. You can quibble with my characterization. Perhaps I'll understand the import of your quibble when I too summit the mountaintop too. But I'm sticking with the adjective for now. Hey maxd, and ZD, E, and anybody else interested. I just picked here (What Is Realization?) to post. This morning I woke up with this 'picture' of a realization. I just wanted to share it and see if it applies. It's the movie Fightclub, with Ed Norton and Brad Pitt. Now, if you haven't seen the film, it's a pretty good film. I figured it was all about fighting when it came out in theaters, so I wasn't really interested. Probably about a year ago or so I stumbled upon it on TV, thought I'd give it a look as I had nothing better to do, at the time. I'd say it's an exceptional "existential"/psychological film. I'll not do any spoilers here, it's generally about a guy who is bored sh!tless with life and finds a way to engage life to make it real again, essentially a way to put one into the present moment, put some oomph! into life, no-holds-barred-knock-down-drag-out-slug-it-out fighting. He meets another guy and shares this with him, he 'likes' it too so they begin to share it with others, and pretty soon there is a secret fight club. Why do some of these guys keep coming back to get the sh!t beat out of them? Why is it a "club"? (OK, we sort-of have our own fightclub here )...... It's hard not to say more without giving something significant away, something that concerns realization. Anybody who has seen the movie, does this make sense? Isn't this a good analogy/description for realization? Doesn't a significant realization reorder your whole life, put everything in a different perspective? If you haven't seen it and like existential films, see it. Again, it's not really (all) about fighting, so don't let that dissuade you. Now, if anybody want's to discuss the film, put spoiler alert at the beginning of the post so those who have not seen it will not have the experience spoiled in a _____ _____ way, will know to stay away from that post........oh.....slight edit, the film gives an excellent description of split-mind also..... '-) ....
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Post by figgles on Mar 9, 2015 10:28:10 GMT -5
A lie? A little dramatic, doncha think? AT worst, I've misunderstood. If so, please explain how: Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/search/results?where_board_subboard=7%2C8&where_category=1&where_without=6%2C2%2C5%2C3%2C4%2C1&what_at_least_one=carrots&what_all=carrots&when_days=2000&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0#ixzz3TduT4PXpAre you or are you not, in the quote above, saying there that most seekers are not interested in nonduality for the reason that it does not offer enough enticement? Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/search/results?where_board_subboard=7%2C8&where_category=1&where_without=6%2C2%2C5%2C3%2C4%2C1&what_at_least_one=carrots&what_all=carrots&when_days=2000&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0#ixzz3TdoRya45Again, correct me if I'm wrong, please, but aren't you saying there that nonduality doesn't offer much in the way of carrots to the seeker? Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/search/results?where_board_subboard=7%2C8&where_category=1&where_without=6%2C2%2C5%2C3%2C4%2C1&what_at_least_one=carrots&what_all=carrots&when_days=2000&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0#ixzz3Tdoop2H2And above, you seem to be saying that actual/true Freedom, Peace, Enlightenment are not viewed as enticing, are not really wanted by seekers...? Where is 'the lie'? The lie is that I said nonduality is free of carrots, when you clearly know I didn't. Methinks you're mincing words here....getting ridiculously specific, one might even say, doing so purposefully in order to hold your ground. You just said this: "Those ideas are distasteful" in reference to 'no separation, no person, no free will.' Those ideas, and the supposed wide-spread aversion to them by the self identified, are specifically what I was referencing when I brought up the subject of nondual teachers putting forth a fallacy. Doesn't 'distasteful' equal 'not carroty'? and aren't the major tenets of nonduality, if it could be said to have tenets; No separation, no person, no free will? silly to say that the idea of freedom appeals to folks who seek nondual realization, but not the other ideas that nonduality says go hand in hand with it. Most folks who follow nondual teachings, are well aware of the absences that must be, in order for that freedom to be, and that absence is (misguided as it may be) precisely what they are seeking to bring about.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 10:55:41 GMT -5
Your explanations of getting to the mountaintop, the pinnacle of clarity from where all life goals can be seen and where it is perfectly revealed that the whole is made of parts and from where living begins and that there is such a thing as cosmic consciousness and Cosmic Memory .... is what I characterize as a monumental experience. You can quibble with my characterization. Perhaps I'll understand the import of your quibble when I too summit the mountaintop too. But I'm sticking with the adjective for now. Hey maxd, and ZD, E, and anybody else interested. I just picked here (What Is Realization?) to post. This morning I woke up with this 'picture' of a realization. I just wanted to share it and see if it applies. It's the movie Fightclub, with Ed Norton and Brad Pitt. Now, if you haven't seen the film, it's a pretty good film. I figured it was all about fighting when it came out in theaters, so I wasn't really interested. Probably about a year ago or so I stumbled upon it on TV, thought I'd give it a look as I had nothing better to do, at the time. I'd say it's an exceptional "existential"/psychological film. I'll not do any spoilers here, it's generally about a guy who is bored sh!tless with life and finds a way to engage life to make it real again, essentially a way to put one into the present moment, put some oomph! into life, no-holds-barred-knock-down-drag-out-slug-it-out fighting. He meets another guy and shares this with him, he 'likes' it too so they begin to share it with others, and pretty soon there is a secret fight club. Why do some of these guys keep coming back to get the sh!t beat out of them? Why is it a "club"? (OK, we sort-of have our own fightclub here )...... It's hard not to say more without giving something significant away, something that concerns realization. Anybody who has seen the movie, does this make sense? Isn't this a good analogy/description for realization? Doesn't a significant realization reorder your whole life, put everything in a different perspective? If you haven't seen it and like existential films, see it. Again, it's not really (all) about fighting, so don't let that dissuade you. Now, if anybody want's to discuss the film, put spoiler alert at the beginning of the post so those who have not seen it will not have the experience spoiled in a _____ _____ way, will know to stay away from that post........oh.....slight edit, the film gives an excellent description of split-mind also..... '-) .... I've seen the movie/book referenced a million times in this particular conversational context but have as yet to see it. I look forward to some day. I'm definitely a cinephile, though pedestrian in depth.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 9, 2015 11:36:20 GMT -5
Hey maxd, and ZD, E, and anybody else interested. I just picked here (What Is Realization?) to post. This morning I woke up with this 'picture' of a realization. I just wanted to share it and see if it applies. It's the movie Fightclub, with Ed Norton and Brad Pitt. Now, if you haven't seen the film, it's a pretty good film. I figured it was all about fighting when it came out in theaters, so I wasn't really interested. Probably about a year ago or so I stumbled upon it on TV, thought I'd give it a look as I had nothing better to do, at the time. I'd say it's an exceptional "existential"/psychological film. I'll not do any spoilers here, it's generally about a guy who is bored sh!tless with life and finds a way to engage life to make it real again, essentially a way to put one into the present moment, put some oomph! into life, no-holds-barred-knock-down-drag-out-slug-it-out fighting. He meets another guy and shares this with him, he 'likes' it too so they begin to share it with others, and pretty soon there is a secret fight club. Why do some of these guys keep coming back to get the sh!t beat out of them? Why is it a "club"? (OK, we sort-of have our own fightclub here )...... It's hard not to say more without giving something significant away, something that concerns realization. Anybody who has seen the movie, does this make sense? Isn't this a good analogy/description for realization? Doesn't a significant realization reorder your whole life, put everything in a different perspective? If you haven't seen it and like existential films, see it. Again, it's not really (all) about fighting, so don't let that dissuade you. Now, if anybody want's to discuss the film, put spoiler alert at the beginning of the post so those who have not seen it will not have the experience spoiled in a _____ _____ way, will know to stay away from that post........oh.....slight edit, the film gives an excellent description of split-mind also..... '-) .... I've seen the movie/book referenced a million times in this particular conversational context but have as yet to see it. I look forward to some day. I'm definitely a cinephile, though pedestrian in depth. Yea.....you sound like a perfect fit. When you have a couple of extra hours, it's definitely worth a look........
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Post by laughter on Mar 9, 2015 13:30:09 GMT -5
I never wrote anything approaching the idea that one can't rely on their experience. Try to address the words on the page rather than what you imagine the words to read. There is no such thing as someone who is realized, and of course you're not throwing rocks at me, you're throwing rocks at some cardboard cut-out of me you have in your mind of a guy who thinks he's self-realized. Yeah, that was me. That sort of confusion is not a good sign and usually predictive of a specific st.org patterned content arc.
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Post by laughter on Mar 9, 2015 13:38:33 GMT -5
Yes, absolutely, I couldn't agree more. What tends to happen here is that ideas are ascribed to an individual that the individual disagrees are his or her expressions, and that's when things start to get personal. That's a good point. That actually seems to hap...., I mean, occur, on a regular basis for me. Almost always, it seems like a purposeful distortion. From watching that spin out over the years there seems to be a few different things goin' on. Part of it is genuine surprise and curiosity over the points of disagreement that come up in dialog, and I know from my own experience that this curiosity can be compelling. From there though, if someone identifies tightly enough with the ideas under debate then it gets personal. Once that starts then some peeps take it to the extreme of a sort of contest where the cardboard cut-out of the evil frog must be shown to the world to be the dangerous deceptive stuck brown bear that he is. In that extreme the conflict is rationalized as all about getting you to become conscious of what you supposedly don't see about yourself -- but hey, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, right?
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Post by laughter on Mar 9, 2015 13:44:09 GMT -5
The new guys will learn to love us cuz we're just so irresistibly adorable.
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Post by laughter on Mar 9, 2015 13:52:33 GMT -5
Your explanations of getting to the mountaintop, the pinnacle of clarity from where all life goals can be seen and where it is perfectly revealed that the whole is made of parts and from where living begins and that there is such a thing as cosmic consciousness and Cosmic Memory .... is what I characterize as a monumental experience. You can quibble with my characterization. Perhaps I'll understand the import of your quibble when I too summit the mountaintop too. But I'm sticking with the adjective for now. Hey maxd, and ZD, E, and anybody else interested. I just picked here (What Is Realization?) to post. This morning I woke up with this 'picture' of a realization. I just wanted to share it and see if it applies. It's the movie Fightclub, with Ed Norton and Brad Pitt. Now, if you haven't seen the film, it's a pretty good film. I figured it was all about fighting when it came out in theaters, so I wasn't really interested. Probably about a year ago or so I stumbled upon it on TV, thought I'd give it a look as I had nothing better to do, at the time. I'd say it's an exceptional "existential"/psychological film. I'll not do any spoilers here, it's generally about a guy who is bored sh!tless with life and finds a way to engage life to make it real again, essentially a way to put one into the present moment, put some oomph! into life, no-holds-barred-knock-down-drag-out-slug-it-out fighting. He meets another guy and shares this with him, he 'likes' it too so they begin to share it with others, and pretty soon there is a secret fight club. Why do some of these guys keep coming back to get the sh!t beat out of them? Why is it a "club"? (OK, we sort-of have our own fightclub here )...... It's hard not to say more without giving something significant away, something that concerns realization. Anybody who has seen the movie, does this make sense? Isn't this a good analogy/description for realization? Doesn't a significant realization reorder your whole life, put everything in a different perspective? If you haven't seen it and like existential films, see it. Again, it's not really (all) about fighting, so don't let that dissuade you. Now, if anybody want's to discuss the film, put spoiler alert at the beginning of the post so those who have not seen it will not have the experience spoiled in a _____ _____ way, will know to stay away from that post........oh.....slight edit, the film gives an excellent description of split-mind also..... '-) .... yer a little late the the party Tyler ... the allusions to the club have been frequent and from multiple sources over the years. It's pretty much an American Advaita cliche.
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