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Post by japhy on Feb 17, 2015 12:19:22 GMT -5
What is a realization and why is it permanent?
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Post by japhy on Feb 17, 2015 13:49:33 GMT -5
Everything is impermanent, so how can a realization be permanent?
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Post by andrew on Feb 17, 2015 14:15:28 GMT -5
Hi japhy, I suspect that one of the reasons that your question hasn't been answered yet is because there have been so many different uses of the word on the forum. It's been a controversial subject.
I'm not going to offer a specific definition, but I agree that nothing that happens is permanent. However, when something new is seen that resonates very profoundly, it becomes extremely difficult to go back to the way things were. The sense of truthfulness, realness and deep resonation of what is seen, changes our view (and our conditioned understandings) of self, of life, perhaps of God.
So even though, theoretically, somehow our old conditioning/understandings could revert back, it is extremely unlikely (I hesitate to use the word impossible), because we have a new sense of what is truthful and what is real that cannot be ignored. It's not like when we acquire a new 'fact' that changes our understanding (for example, the world is round/flat) because for the most part, facts are just information. They don't tend to resonate deeply in the way that a spiritual realization does. Realizations cut to the core of our experience and change it.
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Post by enigma on Feb 18, 2015 2:05:06 GMT -5
What is a realization and why is it permanent? Just to be clear, are you referring to the possibility of the person losing the realization, or of the person dying, and therefore negating the realization?
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Post by japhy on Feb 18, 2015 4:20:06 GMT -5
Just to be clear, are you referring to the possibility of the person losing the realization, or of the person dying, and therefore negating the realization? I was referring to te person losing the realization. Personally it seems at the moment that something, which has been clearly seen, can't be forgot. Of course, this might change any moment. Therefore I am probably not speaking about real impermanence. It is somehow hard to express. Yes the person might die, but the permanence I am talking about is more like: It is true now, now, now,... And this way it stays forever :-D. Of course there is some change with time. First it is new and a lot of focus is on it and, when the dust has settled, it goes more to the backround. But something stays or is it even absence of something? I don't know. Another problem I have, is the word "realisation" itself. People here and especially you are talking a lot about realizations. And I have been trying to locate them, but they are like fish. From memory I can say that something has been seen, but it's very hard to grasp. Then somewhere ZD wrote that he realized the difference between experience and realisation, which also got me interested.
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 18, 2015 6:29:42 GMT -5
A person realizes the rope is a vine, then realizes it's a snake, then realizes it's a shadow.. a person realizes they're in love, then realizes they're not, all a function of experience.. realization is a way of elevating experience and/or insight to a mystical illusion for a purpose other than clarity.. it is adding complexity where none is needed, it is superfluous..
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Post by tenka on Feb 18, 2015 9:57:56 GMT -5
I speak from time to time of vibrations and frequencies .
The vibration of the realization is perhaps sky high or off the chart or rather should I say beyond vibration so to speak .
As one becomes aware of what has happened after the realization occurs one cannot function in the physical world whilst maintaining the immediate vibrationary rate after effects .
The memory of the realization never fades out of sight but the actual energy or vibration begins to lower, lessen or slow down depending how one relates to a change or a shift in such rates . Kind of like warming down after a 5 mile run or coming down after a sugar rush lol .
My mum entertained the realization and it took 7 years to come back down to a particular level .
At this point she was skin and bone . Like I said one cannot maintain the highest of vibration and function in a so called ordinary physical life experience for a great length of time simply / partly because the physical mind body cannot handle it .
Some snap out of it rather quickly, in minutes, hours, days, weeks, depending on many things . There is an readjustment to be made nevertheless, it takes a while to sink in to that which has just transpired and how that now integrates with where they find themselves (in the land of identity and such likes) .
This is why many simply cry like a baby or laugh like a madman, for it seems to overwhelm one's senses .
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Post by enigma on Feb 18, 2015 11:46:09 GMT -5
Just to be clear, are you referring to the possibility of the person losing the realization, or of the person dying, and therefore negating the realization? I was referring to te person losing the realization. Personally it seems at the moment that something, which has been clearly seen, can't be forgot. Of course, this might change any moment. Therefore I am probably not speaking about real impermanence. It is somehow hard to express. Yes the person might die, but the permanence I am talking about is more like: It is true now, now, now,... And this way it stays forever :-D. Of course there is some change with time. First it is new and a lot of focus is on it and, when the dust has settled, it goes more to the backround. But something stays or is it even absence of something? I don't know. Another problem I have, is the word "realisation" itself. People here and especially you are talking a lot about realizations. And I have been trying to locate them, but they are like fish. From memory I can say that something has been seen, but it's very hard to grasp. Then somewhere ZD wrote that he realized the difference between experience and realisation, which also got me interested. Okay, thanks for clarifying. Yes, realization is permanent because it does not refer to an appearance that comes and goes. It's not a conceptual truth or a piece of information that might be forgotten. As you implied, it's really an absence, and you can't lose an absence. Once an illusion is seen through, it loses all power to deceive, and since this seeing is not mind, it is self evident and leaves no doubt in it's wake. For the same reason, it is not stored as memory. It's not necessary to be able to talk about a realization, but if it IS talked about, it's best to speak from that place of seeing so that it's fresh and undistorted. So the seeing is not dependent upon anything in the impermanent physical realm. It is a function of Awareness itself.
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Post by laughter on Feb 18, 2015 12:22:23 GMT -5
Just to be clear, are you referring to the possibility of the person losing the realization, or of the person dying, and therefore negating the realization? I was referring to te person losing the realization. Personally it seems at the moment that something, which has been clearly seen, can't be forgot. Of course, this might change any moment. Therefore I am probably not speaking about real impermanence. It is somehow hard to express. Yes the person might die, but the permanence I am talking about is more like: It is true now, now, now,... And this way it stays forever :-D. Of course there is some change with time. First it is new and a lot of focus is on it and, when the dust has settled, it goes more to the backround. But something stays or is it even absence of something? I don't know. Another problem I have, is the word "realisation" itself. People here and especially you are talking a lot about realizations. And I have been trying to locate them, but they are like fish. From memory I can say that something has been seen, but it's very hard to grasp. Then somewhere ZD wrote that he realized the difference between experience and realisation, which also got me interested. E', Reefs and ZD all use the word slightly differently and for different reasons. For instance, Reefs uses the word singularly and prefers "insights" to refer to the multiple realizations that a person might or might not encounter along the way. E' prefers to use the same word to demystify what Reefs means by realization ... not in the sense that he's demystifying what Reefs writes, but in the sense relative to the concept. In terms of a "permanent realization", what I'd say is that it's possible to have a non-conceptual recognition of changelessness. How we think of that recognition, how we express it, and how we orient toward it can all change over time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2015 14:05:23 GMT -5
I was referring to te person losing the realization. Personally it seems at the moment that something, which has been clearly seen, can't be forgot. Of course, this might change any moment. Therefore I am probably not speaking about real impermanence. It is somehow hard to express. Yes the person might die, but the permanence I am talking about is more like: It is true now, now, now,... And this way it stays forever :-D. Of course there is some change with time. First it is new and a lot of focus is on it and, when the dust has settled, it goes more to the backround. But something stays or is it even absence of something? I don't know. Another problem I have, is the word "realisation" itself. People here and especially you are talking a lot about realizations. And I have been trying to locate them, but they are like fish. From memory I can say that something has been seen, but it's very hard to grasp. Then somewhere ZD wrote that he realized the difference between experience and realisation, which also got me interested. E', Reefs and ZD all use the word slightly differently and for different reasons. For instance, Reefs uses the word singularly and prefers "insights" to refer to the multiple realizations that a person might or might not encounter along the way. E' prefers to use the same word to demystify what Reefs means by realization ... not in the sense that he's demystifying what Reefs writes, but in the sense relative to the concept. In terms of a "permanent realization", what I'd say is that it's possible to have a non-conceptual recognition of changelessness. How we think of that recognition, how we express it, and how we orient toward it can all change over time. Hi laughter, I too agree there is a recognition. I don't use the word changeless-ness though because for me it's the opposite of changefull-ness, which is what we actually experience. I prefer recognition of a spiritual background to life, or in other words that which is the true nature of existence. We are saying the same thing though, it's just semantics.
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Post by laughter on Feb 18, 2015 15:06:22 GMT -5
E', Reefs and ZD all use the word slightly differently and for different reasons. For instance, Reefs uses the word singularly and prefers "insights" to refer to the multiple realizations that a person might or might not encounter along the way. E' prefers to use the same word to demystify what Reefs means by realization ... not in the sense that he's demystifying what Reefs writes, but in the sense relative to the concept. In terms of a "permanent realization", what I'd say is that it's possible to have a non-conceptual recognition of changelessness. How we think of that recognition, how we express it, and how we orient toward it can all change over time. Hi laughter, I too agree there is a recognition. I don't use the word changeless-ness though because for me it's the opposite of changefull-ness, which is what we actually experience. I prefer recognition of a spiritual background to life, or in other words that which is the true nature of existence. We are saying the same thing though, it's just semantics. Oft-used buzz words to point to what I was referring to with changelessness are stillness and silence. It's a quiet mind empty of thoughts that's the commonly reported experiential stage on which the recognition occurs. From corresponding with others this can be both mistaken for some other state and also completely overlooked and dismissed as irrelevant.
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Post by enigma on Feb 18, 2015 19:00:33 GMT -5
A person realizes the rope is a vine, then realizes it's a snake, then realizes it's a shadow.. a person realizes they're in love, then realizes they're not, all a function of experience.. realization is a way of elevating experience and/or insight to a mystical illusion for a purpose other than clarity.. it is adding complexity where none is needed, it is superfluous.. Realization, as we talk about it here, is an entirely different animal.
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Post by vacant on Feb 18, 2015 19:41:36 GMT -5
Are we then talking about some liberation, understanding or un-understanding? honestly no playing for the minute, is there realization to have , live, etc forget about all being as is? Is there an unknown in the room, that could be beneficial to find? Not yet asking to whom the benefit. Honest & eager curious questions.
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Post by enigma on Feb 18, 2015 21:24:41 GMT -5
Are we then talking about some liberation, understanding or un-understanding? honestly no playing for the minute, is there realization to have , live, etc forget about all being as is? Is there an unknown in the room, that could be beneficial to find? Not yet asking to whom the benefit. Honest & eager curious questions. IMHO, realization is fundamentally the realization of what is not so; the seeing through of illusions. That nature of a realization may not be apparent even to the one who has realized, because of the nonconceptual nature of it. It may take the form of a clear view of the boundaries that form the illusion, making the false structure of the illusion apparent. The seeing itself is not really the seeing of something; not the acquisition of some conceptual knowledge. However, mind is (slowly or quickly) informed of this realization in a conceptual form, which primarily has the effect of collapsing beliefs and their associated mental momentum, but this absence can always be stated in a positive form so that it may seem like something is known. Really, there is nothing to know. For example, when the imaginary boundaries of separation collapse, it might be authoritatively declared that oneness is the case, but what is actually seen is not oneness, but the absence of separation. Oneness is not a bit of knowledge that is acquired in the realization, and in terms of the realization, has no significance. Something has been lost, and losing is the name of the game. The absence of boundaries is the endless, open space of Peace. (IMO)
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Post by vacant on Feb 19, 2015 3:05:46 GMT -5
Are we then talking about some liberation, understanding or un-understanding? honestly no playing for the minute, is there realization to have , live, etc forget about all being as is? Is there an unknown in the room, that could be beneficial to find? Not yet asking to whom the benefit. Honest & eager curious questions. IMHO, realization is fundamentally the realization of what is not so; the seeing through of illusions. That nature of a realization may not be apparent even to the one who has realized, because of the nonconceptual nature of it. It may take the form of a clear view of the boundaries that form the illusion, making the false structure of the illusion apparent. The seeing itself is not really the seeing of something; not the acquisition of some conceptual knowledge. However, mind is (slowly or quickly) informed of this realization in a conceptual form, which primarily has the effect of collapsing beliefs and their associated mental momentum, but this absence can always be stated in a positive form so that it may seem like something is known. Really, there is nothing to know. For example, when the imaginary boundaries of separation collapse, it might be authoritatively declared that oneness is the case, but what is actually seen is not oneness, but the absence of separation. Oneness is not a bit of knowledge that is acquired in the realization, and in terms of the realization, has no significance. Something has been lost, and losing is the name of the game. The absence of boundaries is the endless, open space of Peace. (IMO) Hehe. Good stuff, thanks
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