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Post by laughter on Mar 9, 2015 13:56:09 GMT -5
Methinks you're mincing words here....getting ridiculously specific, one might even say, doing so purposefully in order to hold your ground.
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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2015 19:17:32 GMT -5
Your explanations of getting to the mountaintop, the pinnacle of clarity from where all life goals can be seen and where it is perfectly revealed that the whole is made of parts and from where living begins and that there is such a thing as cosmic consciousness and Cosmic Memory .... is what I characterize as a monumental experience. You can quibble with my characterization. Perhaps I'll understand the import of your quibble when I too summit the mountaintop too. But I'm sticking with the adjective for now. Hey maxd, and ZD, E, and anybody else interested. I just picked here (What Is Realization?) to post. This morning I woke up with this 'picture' of a realization. I just wanted to share it and see if it applies. It's the movie Fightclub, with Ed Norton and Brad Pitt. Now, if you haven't seen the film, it's a pretty good film. I figured it was all about fighting when it came out in theaters, so I wasn't really interested. Probably about a year ago or so I stumbled upon it on TV, thought I'd give it a look as I had nothing better to do, at the time. I'd say it's an exceptional "existential"/psychological film. I'll not do any spoilers here, it's generally about a guy who is bored sh!tless with life and finds a way to engage life to make it real again, essentially a way to put one into the present moment, put some oomph! into life, no-holds-barred-knock-down-drag-out-slug-it-out fighting. He meets another guy and shares this with him, he 'likes' it too so they begin to share it with others, and pretty soon there is a secret fight club. Why do some of these guys keep coming back to get the sh!t beat out of them? Why is it a "club"? (OK, we sort-of have our own fightclub here )...... It's hard not to say more without giving something significant away, something that concerns realization. Anybody who has seen the movie, does this make sense? Isn't this a good analogy/description for realization? Doesn't a significant realization reorder your whole life, put everything in a different perspective? If you haven't seen it and like existential films, see it. Again, it's not really (all) about fighting, so don't let that dissuade you. Now, if anybody want's to discuss the film, put spoiler alert at the beginning of the post so those who have not seen it will not have the experience spoiled in a _____ _____ way, will know to stay away from that post........oh.....slight edit, the film gives an excellent description of split-mind also..... '-) .... I do see the existential angst part of it, but not really any relationship to realization.
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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2015 19:41:27 GMT -5
The lie is that I said nonduality is free of carrots, when you clearly know I didn't. Methinks you're mincing words here....getting ridiculously specific, one might even say, doing so purposefully in order to hold your ground. Mincing words purposefully in order to make a point is my impression of what you've been doing, and why the discussion has turned so word lawyery. Sure. I don't see it as silly at all. Seekers regularly pick and choose what parts of a teaching they want to follow and which they want to ignore. From my perspective, most seekers are clueless about the idea of absence. This is the only discussion group I've seen it mentioned, and while I'm not that familiar with the various teachers, I don't recall the idea being addressed, at least not directly.
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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2015 19:45:26 GMT -5
That sort of confusion is not a good sign and usually predictive of a specific st.org patterned content arc. You mean the clubhouse straw man?
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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2015 19:55:43 GMT -5
That's a good point. That actually seems to hap...., I mean, occur, on a regular basis for me. Almost always, it seems like a purposeful distortion. From watching that spin out over the years there seems to be a few different things goin' on. Part of it is genuine surprise and curiosity over the points of disagreement that come up in dialog, and I know from my own experience that this curiosity can be compelling. From there though, if someone identifies tightly enough with the ideas under debate then it gets personal. Once that starts then some peeps take it to the extreme of a sort of contest where the cardboard cut-out of the evil frog must be shown to the world to be the dangerous deceptive stuck brown bear that he is. In that extreme the conflict is rationalized as all about getting you to become conscious of what you supposedly don't see about yourself -- but hey, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, right? What seems most common to me is the perception that I'm contradicting myself, or covering my butt, because their image of what I say doesn't match what I'm saying. I have no idea what the image is until they tell me, or somebody else, and by then the paint is dry and it's in the frame, and nothing much can be done.
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 9, 2015 20:07:47 GMT -5
From watching that spin out over the years there seems to be a few different things goin' on. Part of it is genuine surprise and curiosity over the points of disagreement that come up in dialog, and I know from my own experience that this curiosity can be compelling. From there though, if someone identifies tightly enough with the ideas under debate then it gets personal. Once that starts then some peeps take it to the extreme of a sort of contest where the cardboard cut-out of the evil frog must be shown to the world to be the dangerous deceptive stuck brown bear that he is. In that extreme the conflict is rationalized as all about getting you to become conscious of what you supposedly don't see about yourself -- but hey, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, right? What seems most common to me is the perception that I'm contradicting myself, or covering my butt, because their image of what I say doesn't match what I'm saying. I have no idea what the image is until they tell me, or somebody else, and by then the paint is dry and it's in the frame, and nothing much can be done. Fresh Paint: You don't know that you don't know.. you are absolutely sure that you do know, and only what you think you know is vaild, and.. when people point that out to you, you go to war.. that's the general gist of it. you never come empty to a discussion, never without an agenda, and absent any sincerity for clarity.. Each new version of the 'Poor Phil, the Enigmatic Phrogg Show' gets a new coat of paint..
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Post by laughter on Mar 9, 2015 20:09:20 GMT -5
That sort of confusion is not a good sign and usually predictive of a specific st.org patterned content arc. You mean the clubhouse straw man? No, confusing who wrote what.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 9, 2015 20:23:31 GMT -5
What seems most common to me is the perception that I'm contradicting myself, or covering my butt, because their image of what I say doesn't match what I'm saying. I have no idea what the image is until they tell me, or somebody else, and by then the paint is dry and it's in the frame, and nothing much can be done. Fresh Paint: You don't know that you don't know.. you are absolutely sure that you do know, and only what you think you know is vaild, and.. when people point that out to you, you go to war.. that's the general gist of it. you never come empty to a discussion, never without an agenda, and absent any sincerity for clarity.. Each new version of the 'Poor Phil, the Enigmatic Phrogg Show' gets a new coat of paint.. I'm going to have to agree with Tzu on this. I get everything everybody says about realizations and CC and all that. What I don't get is how anyone can say definitively how (relative) reality; time, space, energy and matter and everything in-between our world and the ultimate ground of being, works. That just seems like a very big leap. It is a very big leap. I'll go with insight, experience and understanding, over realization.
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Post by laughter on Mar 9, 2015 20:24:49 GMT -5
From watching that spin out over the years there seems to be a few different things goin' on. Part of it is genuine surprise and curiosity over the points of disagreement that come up in dialog, and I know from my own experience that this curiosity can be compelling. From there though, if someone identifies tightly enough with the ideas under debate then it gets personal. Once that starts then some peeps take it to the extreme of a sort of contest where the cardboard cut-out of the evil frog must be shown to the world to be the dangerous deceptive stuck brown bear that he is. In that extreme the conflict is rationalized as all about getting you to become conscious of what you supposedly don't see about yourself -- but hey, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, right? What seems most common to me is the perception that I'm contradicting myself, or covering my butt, because their image of what I say doesn't match what I'm saying. I have no idea what the image is until they tell me, or somebody else, and by then the paint is dry and it's in the frame, and nothing much can be done. Well part of the contradicto-frog dealio is that genuine surprise and curiosity. Your thinking is very very unconventional and when one uses logic to follow it based on mental maps that's where they wind up: at a contradiction. For example, the last topic along these lines that we dialoged about where I perceived this type of contradiction was your idea that "the unconditioned never becomes conditioned". What turned the conversation for me back then was you mentioning the idea that "yeah, to mind it seems that way". You see, I didn't have to buy everything you were writing, just suspend my disbelief and disagreement long enough to see what you meant to understand the apparent contradiction. The last time you wrote that to me (" ..seems that way..") wasn't too long ago and it was on the idea that physicality appears within consciousness -- which still is an idea that I'll throw down on. What happens is your penchant for sounding self-confident tends to inflame any identification with the ideas that you disparage, and then the bull sees red ... or is it green?
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Post by laughter on Mar 9, 2015 20:25:35 GMT -5
Fresh Paint: You don't know that you don't know.. you are absolutely sure that you do know, and only what you think you know is vaild, and.. when people point that out to you, you go to war.. that's the general gist of it. you never come empty to a discussion, never without an agenda, and absent any sincerity for clarity.. Each new version of the 'Poor Phil, the Enigmatic Phrogg Show' gets a new coat of paint.. I'm going to have to agree with Tzu on this. I get everything everybody says about realizations and CC and all that. What I don't get is how anyone can say definitively how (relative) reality; time, space, energy and matter and everything in-between our world and the ultimate ground of being, works. That just seems like a very big leap. It is a very big leap. I'll go with insight, experience and understanding, over realization. (** straight face **)
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 9, 2015 20:38:05 GMT -5
Hey maxd, and ZD, E, and anybody else interested. I just picked here (What Is Realization?) to post. This morning I woke up with this 'picture' of a realization. I just wanted to share it and see if it applies. It's the movie Fightclub, with Ed Norton and Brad Pitt. Now, if you haven't seen the film, it's a pretty good film. I figured it was all about fighting when it came out in theaters, so I wasn't really interested. Probably about a year ago or so I stumbled upon it on TV, thought I'd give it a look as I had nothing better to do, at the time. I'd say it's an exceptional "existential"/psychological film. I'll not do any spoilers here, it's generally about a guy who is bored sh!tless with life and finds a way to engage life to make it real again, essentially a way to put one into the present moment, put some oomph! into life, no-holds-barred-knock-down-drag-out-slug-it-out fighting. He meets another guy and shares this with him, he 'likes' it too so they begin to share it with others, and pretty soon there is a secret fight club. Why do some of these guys keep coming back to get the sh!t beat out of them? Why is it a "club"? (OK, we sort-of have our own fightclub here )...... It's hard not to say more without giving something significant away, something that concerns realization. Anybody who has seen the movie, does this make sense? Isn't this a good analogy/description for realization? Doesn't a significant realization reorder your whole life, put everything in a different perspective? If you haven't seen it and like existential films, see it. Again, it's not really (all) about fighting, so don't let that dissuade you. Now, if anybody want's to discuss the film, put spoiler alert at the beginning of the post so those who have not seen it will not have the experience spoiled in a _____ _____ way, will know to stay away from that post........oh.....slight edit, the film gives an excellent description of split-mind also..... '-) .... I do see the existential angst part of it, but not really any relationship to realization. Not really a spoiler..........I don't think........but if you don't want to know anything about the film, stay away......... sort of spoiler......... At the end, one of the dudes has a realization. Yes? I'm not saying the film has anything to do with SR, I'm just talking about the nature of realization, using the film to point to that. The mere effect of a realization.
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 9, 2015 20:46:06 GMT -5
Fresh Paint: You don't know that you don't know.. you are absolutely sure that you do know, and only what you think you know is vaild, and.. when people point that out to you, you go to war.. that's the general gist of it. you never come empty to a discussion, never without an agenda, and absent any sincerity for clarity.. Each new version of the 'Poor Phil, the Enigmatic Phrogg Show' gets a new coat of paint.. I'm going to have to agree with Tzu on this. I get everything everybody says about realizations and CC and all that. What I don't get is how anyone can say definitively how (relative) reality; time, space, energy and matter and everything in-between our world and the ultimate ground of being, works. That just seems like a very big leap. It is a very big leap. I'll go with insight, experience and understanding, over realization. Hi SDP: I know that stuff seems mundane to guru crowd, but..i know a lot of people that are far more gifted at living well through insight, experience, and understanding, than there are hanging-out on forums trying to out-realize the Advaita Brown Bear in each other.. Insight, experience, and understanding, is the working-man's/woman's path, it's already there.. you don't have to do anything but but STFU and pay attention with genuine curiosity..
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 9, 2015 20:55:17 GMT -5
What seems most common to me is the perception that I'm contradicting myself, or covering my butt, because their image of what I say doesn't match what I'm saying. I have no idea what the image is until they tell me, or somebody else, and by then the paint is dry and it's in the frame, and nothing much can be done. Well part of the contradicto-frog dealio is that genuine surprise and curiosity. Your thinking is very very unconventional and when one uses logic to follow it based on mental maps that's where they wind up: at a contradiction. For example, the last topic along these lines that we dialoged about where I perceived this type of contradiction was your idea that "the unconditioned never becomes conditioned". What turned the conversation for me back then was you mentioning the idea that "yeah, to mind it seems that way". You see, I didn't have to buy everything you were writing, just suspend my disbelief and disagreement long enough to see what you meant to understand the apparent contradiction. The last time you wrote that to me (" ..seems that way..") wasn't too long ago and it was on the idea that physicality appears within consciousness -- which still is an idea that I'll throw down on. What happens is your penchant for sounding self-confident tends to inflame any identification with the ideas that you disparage, and then the bull sees red ... or is it green? I would not bet on, "the unconditioned never becomes conditioned". Now, if a realization makes the unreal-self poof and just go away, I can't argue with that. But I don't see anybody living that out or even saying that. A mind/body keeps doing stuff that it used to do. That's like a "born again Christian" getting their ticket to heaven and then remaining in their old life, I just don't buy that. But if that floats your boat, go for it. At minimum, whatever we are, we get lost in Maya, we get lost in a maze, a labyrinth. I'm not going to depend upon a realization which informs the mind (what if something 'gets lost' in translation), I'll go for insight, experience and understanding, to get free..........
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 9, 2015 21:01:19 GMT -5
I'm going to have to agree with Tzu on this. I get everything everybody says about realizations and CC and all that. What I don't get is how anyone can say definitively how (relative) reality; time, space, energy and matter and everything in-between our world and the ultimate ground of being, works. That just seems like a very big leap. It is a very big leap. I'll go with insight, experience and understanding, over realization. Hi SDP: I know that stuff seems mundane to guru crowd, but..i know a lot of people that are far more gifted at living well through insight, experience, and understanding, than there are hanging-out on forums trying to out-realize the Advaita Brown Bear in each other.. Insight, experience, and understanding, is the working-man's/woman's path, it's already there.. you don't have to do anything but but STFU and pay attention with genuine curiosity.. Sounds good, "blue collar workers" vs the 1%.
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Post by laughter on Mar 9, 2015 21:03:02 GMT -5
Well part of the contradicto-frog dealio is that genuine surprise and curiosity. Your thinking is very very unconventional and when one uses logic to follow it based on mental maps that's where they wind up: at a contradiction. For example, the last topic along these lines that we dialoged about where I perceived this type of contradiction was your idea that "the unconditioned never becomes conditioned". What turned the conversation for me back then was you mentioning the idea that "yeah, to mind it seems that way". You see, I didn't have to buy everything you were writing, just suspend my disbelief and disagreement long enough to see what you meant to understand the apparent contradiction. The last time you wrote that to me (" ..seems that way..") wasn't too long ago and it was on the idea that physicality appears within consciousness -- which still is an idea that I'll throw down on. What happens is your penchant for sounding self-confident tends to inflame any identification with the ideas that you disparage, and then the bull sees red ... or is it green? I would not bet on, "the unconditioned never becomes conditioned". Now, if a realization makes the unreal-self poof and just go away, I can't argue with that. But I don't see anybody living that out or even saying that. A mind/body keeps doing stuff that it used to do. That's like a "born again Christian" getting their ticket to heaven and then remaining in their old life, I just don't buy that. But if that floats your boat, go for it. At minimum, whatever we are, we get lost in Maya, we get lost in a maze, a labyrinth. I'm not going to depend upon a realization which informs the mind (what if something 'gets lost' in translation), I'll go for insight, experience and understanding, to get free.......... You seem to have conflated two ideas here. Now, first off, understand, "the unconditioned never becomes conditioned" was an example of something that I've attributed to E' ... how do you relate that, exactly, to "realization just makes the unreal-self poof and just go away"? That's quite a leap and not one that I'd argue. Insight, experience and understanding in the way that you mean them all serve a person well. They allow him or her to predict problems before they happen and to make choices that are beneficial to whatever goals the person might have, like getting and staying healthy or providing a better life for their family or making a positive difference in their community. But that person might still be left with existential questioning.
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