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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 16:17:11 GMT -5
I'm wary of a push poll situation. Creating a belief where there was none. To the question "How could a rock possibly be conscious?" lots of thinking comes up which assume that rocks are conscious or since consciousness is everywhere everything appearing is also conscious... I don't want to add a belief to the mix. By contemplation do you mean just put the question out there and ATA? No, I wasn't suggesting any kind of belief. I was simply saying that the answers to all existential questions lie at a deeper level of mind than the intellect, and contemplation can provide access. Some questions are more likely than others to trigger big realizations or CC experiences. Tolle's koan may seem trivial, but for him it was earth-shattering. His thought, "I can't live with myself any more," struck him as exceedingly strange, and he wondered, "Who is this 'I' than can't live with 'me' anymore; am I one or two?" Boom! That question sucked him right into the vortex. For someone else it might be Ramana's inquiry, "Who am I, Really?" or the famous Zen enlightenment koan, "What is mu?" All you have to do with an existential question is contemplate what you want to know, and then shift attention away from thoughts to whatever aspect of isness is easy to focus on--perhaps listen to universal sound, follow the breath, etc. The question is intellectual, but the answer is not. It's like moving from the roofbrain chatter level of mind to a more subterranean level of mind that is unified with the cosmos. Do some call this David?
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Post by figgles on Mar 6, 2015 16:45:20 GMT -5
Hehe..Yes, and that argument goes hand in hand with all the "peeps find nonduality distasteful" bizness. In terms of ideas here, the issues I raise are rarely, if ever about me liking or not liking them, rather, I aim to point out the perils of getting too attached or enamored with ANY Idea. Ideas are just ideas. ...and you will continue to insist that you are not attached to ideas, but instead are simply pointing, yada, yada, but the fact that you put such emphasis & argument upon the niggling details of the existential ideas that comprise your 'truth' , says otherwise. Actual Pointers don't come laden with incremental details that need to be argued for and defended, for hours per day, years on end. The idea that nonduality is free of the carrots dangled by other spiritual paths and teachings (so free, that most peeps recoil in distaste at the message) HAS been put forward here by you and others. I simply see it as important to point out that to one who is still seeking, all spiritual paths/non-paths, have some degree of carrott-ness. Nonduality in particular will appeal to those seekers who are so deeply in emotional pain, that the idea of annihilating their personhood will sound like the best thing that could ever happen. That's a lie. I've never put forward that idea. A lie? A little dramatic, doncha think? AT worst, I've misunderstood. If so, please explain how: Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/search/results?where_board_subboard=7%2C8&where_category=1&where_without=6%2C2%2C5%2C3%2C4%2C1&what_at_least_one=carrots&what_all=carrots&when_days=2000&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0#ixzz3TduT4PXpAre you or are you not, in the quote above, saying there that most seekers are not interested in nonduality for the reason that it does not offer enough enticement? Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/search/results?where_board_subboard=7%2C8&where_category=1&where_without=6%2C2%2C5%2C3%2C4%2C1&what_at_least_one=carrots&what_all=carrots&when_days=2000&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0#ixzz3TdoRya45Again, correct me if I'm wrong, please, but aren't you saying there that nonduality doesn't offer much in the way of carrots to the seeker? Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/search/results?where_board_subboard=7%2C8&where_category=1&where_without=6%2C2%2C5%2C3%2C4%2C1&what_at_least_one=carrots&what_all=carrots&when_days=2000&who_only_made_by=0&display_as=0#ixzz3Tdoop2H2And above, you seem to be saying that actual/true Freedom, Peace, Enlightenment are not viewed as enticing, are not really wanted by seekers...? Where is 'the lie'?
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Post by figgles on Mar 6, 2015 17:23:09 GMT -5
Yes, your inability to laugh at yourself is legendary. BS. I'm no stranger to self effacing humour, there simply needs to be an element of agreement. I don't see or agree with the suggestion of 'brain freeze' and see it as a mild sort of lashing out rather than an attempt to laugh along with something that should be obvious to me. Maybe. Fact is, you're forced to speculate because the comment was made in a generalized, sideways manner, rather than a direct address to a specific post. mind/body identified persons aren't interested in the cessation of suffering?..in freedom from the incessant mind chatter, circle of blame, sense of personal responsibility, self recrimination, sense of life being burdened with problems and things that must be 'done'? haha..and really, you say that where the pointers point are likely of negative interest to a body/mind identified person, but, Is there anybody other than a mind/body identified person who is interested in pointers....in 'self realization'? After all, Pointers are not offered to the already self realized, right? They usually get offered to those who seem to be interested....hehe, and all the while the pointing is happening, it's being asserted that nobody is actually interested in the message. Pompous Silliness. Yes I do see E as contradicting himself. All he needs to do though is explain to me where I'm going wrong in terms of misunderstanding his words. I'm genuinely curious (and open) to hearing how (if so). Any conflict he or you is experiencing, will end there.
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Post by laughter on Mar 6, 2015 17:43:38 GMT -5
Yes, your inability to laugh at yourself is legendary. BS. I'm no stranger to self effacing humour, there simply needs to be an element of agreement. I don't see or agree with the suggestion of 'brain freeze' and see it as a mild sort of lashing out rather than an attempt to laugh along with something that should be obvious to me. Maybe. Fact is, you're forced to speculate because the comment was made in a generalized, sideways manner, rather than a direct address to a specific post. uh-huh, nice dodge of the facts. Your scold didn't match the facts of the dialog, so he called it a brain freeze, and now you're making a federal case out of it. The more you indulge in this petty conflict like this the more obvious it becomes that you are completely unable to laugh at yourself. mind/body identified persons aren't interested in the cessation of suffering?.. yadda yadda yadda Pompous Silliness. Oh, I'm sorry .. .. did you think that was an invitation to rehash last years MT's? You let me know if you wanna' have a dialog we haven't had like 43 times already, 'k? Yes I do see E as contradicting himself. All he needs to do though is explain to me where I'm going wrong in terms of misunderstanding his words. I'm genuinely curious (and open) to hearing how (if so). Any conflict he or you is experiencing, will end there. the conflict isn't being experienced here dearie it's being observed, and it's very very obvious in the word lawyering and the irony is that it's easy to see just from a literal comparison of what he called a lie and what you quoted. I mean you really don't see this and this: ...and you will continue to insist that you are not attached to ideas, but instead are simply pointing, yada, yada, but the fact that you put such emphasis & argument upon the niggling details of the existential ideas that comprise your 'truth' , says otherwise. Actual Pointers don't come laden with incremental details that need to be argued for and defended, for hours per day, years ... as inviting a personalized conflict based on tightly identifying your image of E' with a set of ideas? It's very obvious that you're looking for a personalized debate, and really, that's an opportunity for you to ask, why do you have an interest in this sort of conflict? But of course, before you can get to that question, you'd first have to admit the interest ... instead, by the time you get to this sentence you've likely already written a cut-wall about how you're only interest is in a civil discussion about ideas ... am I wrong?
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 6, 2015 20:15:42 GMT -5
I have no interest in you adopting my 'worldview', and you can't 'make rocks conscious', but.. you can allow for that possibility so that if it were to be revealed it wouldn't be dismissed as you're doing now.. Wait a second. From what you said just there it really seems like you think that when someone says something -- makes a statement about rocks having consciousness, for example -- that the reality/observation referred to in what they said is revealed. Wrong. I'm open to the possibility. I see no counter expectation in my experience. But there is nothing to dismiss. You saying that rocks have consciousness is just talking about the possibility from my perspective. I await direct experience for verification. That would be revealing. I don't know how to explain to you to "release it", other than it's as simple as just letting go.. the ritualistic games played at the spiritual circus are self-preservation structures, trying to maintain the illusions.. Ahem. On ritualistic games played at the spiritual circus, you're the one who's claimed to have all the monumental spiritual experiences and yet has moved beyond them. You are the one dispensing spiritual advice. 'Releasing' and 'letting go' advice is Ringmaster central. I'm seeking clarification on this old cliché advice to make it useful. So far it hasn't been. If you can't explain it that is fine. I've made no such claim, but it seems that you've chosen to believe that i have.. I can't explain it, but i've suggested a valid way to find out for yourself..
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Post by figgles on Mar 6, 2015 22:18:31 GMT -5
instead, by the time you get to this sentence you've likely already written a cut-wall about how you're only interest is in a civil discussion about ideas .. . am I wrong? Yup.
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Post by laughter on Mar 7, 2015 0:47:12 GMT -5
instead, by the time you get to this sentence you've likely already written a cut-wall about how you're only interest is in a civil discussion about ideas .. . am I wrong? Yup. likely story ... and yer welcome.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 7:55:13 GMT -5
Wait a second. From what you said just there it really seems like you think that when someone says something -- makes a statement about rocks having consciousness, for example -- that the reality/observation referred to in what they said is revealed. Wrong. I'm open to the possibility. I see no counter expectation in my experience. But there is nothing to dismiss. You saying that rocks have consciousness is just talking about the possibility from my perspective. I await direct experience for verification. That would be revealing. Ahem. On ritualistic games played at the spiritual circus, you're the one who's claimed to have all the monumental spiritual experiences and yet has moved beyond them. You are the one dispensing spiritual advice. 'Releasing' and 'letting go' advice is Ringmaster central. I'm seeking clarification on this old cliché advice to make it useful. So far it hasn't been. If you can't explain it that is fine. I've made no such claim, but it seems that you've chosen to believe that i have.. I can't explain it, but i've suggested a valid way to find out for yourself.. Oh okay my bad. I thought you had said that you had the Oneness experience, you were experientially familiar with nondual awareness and understood it's implications, and yet had nonetheless moved beyond that, in a manner of speaking, incorporating those understandings into where you are now -- with respect to parts and whole. But I don't feel like doing the archeological work to verify that impression. I think what you've offered is what has worked in your own life. Perhaps some day I will reflect back on what you offered and see the sense of it.
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 8, 2015 11:04:32 GMT -5
I've made no such claim, but it seems that you've chosen to believe that i have.. I can't explain it, but i've suggested a valid way to find out for yourself.. Oh okay my bad. I thought you had said that you had the Oneness experience, you were experientially familiar with nondual awareness and understood it's implications, and yet had nonetheless moved beyond that, in a manner of speaking, incorporating those understandings into where you are now -- with respect to parts and whole. But I don't feel like doing the archeological work to verify that impression. I think what you've offered is what has worked in your own life. Perhaps some day I will reflect back on what you offered and see the sense of it. You're trying way too hard.. i have had the oneness experience, i am experientially familiar with nondual awareness and understood it's implications, and.. there is no "beyond that", it remains part of what the experiencer 'is'.. You said, speaking of hyperbole, that i: I don't even understand what "all the monumental spiritual experiences" means, i simply shared my experiences as context for my understandings.. 'you' added the embellishments of 'all' and 'monumental'..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 11:18:59 GMT -5
Oh okay my bad. I thought you had said that you had the Oneness experience, you were experientially familiar with nondual awareness and understood it's implications, and yet had nonetheless moved beyond that, in a manner of speaking, incorporating those understandings into where you are now -- with respect to parts and whole. But I don't feel like doing the archeological work to verify that impression. I think what you've offered is what has worked in your own life. Perhaps some day I will reflect back on what you offered and see the sense of it. You're trying way too hard.. i have had the oneness experience, i am experientially familiar with nondual awareness and understood it's implications, and.. there is no "beyond that", it remains part of what the experiencer 'is'.. You said, speaking of hyperbole, that i: I don't even understand what "all the monumental spiritual experiences" means, i simply shared my experiences as context for my understandings.. 'you' added the embellishments of 'all' and 'monumental'.. For our shared interest in clarity, I agree that 'monumental' may be taken as hyperbole. Sorry if that confused you. This is, however, exactly what I was referring to: "oneness experience," and "nondual awareness." To one of the 99.715% (note: speculation there, and numerical hyperbole perhaps), like myself, who do not claim any such spiritual attainments, they seem rather special and monumental, as in significant points on the path. Thank you for clarifying that you are not beyond these but instead remain there (or whatever). From my understanding from what others have said about nondual awareness or realizing Oneness, this is a significant change of perspective. Radically life changing. Yet it seems like you do not share this and warn people away from such experiences for a fear of loss of clarity and stuckness. Is that misunderstood?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 11:50:54 GMT -5
he he he you are good in these types of Jokes If all movement suddenly stopped, and started again, where would be the record of that stopping? We can't. Do you really think that our consciousness looses the perception completely and Can it again start with the new perception?
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Post by tzujanli on Mar 8, 2015 12:50:47 GMT -5
You're trying way too hard.. i have had the oneness experience, i am experientially familiar with nondual awareness and understood it's implications, and.. there is no "beyond that", it remains part of what the experiencer 'is'.. You said, speaking of hyperbole, that i: I don't even understand what "all the monumental spiritual experiences" means, i simply shared my experiences as context for my understandings.. 'you' added the embellishments of 'all' and 'monumental'.. For our shared interest in clarity, I agree that 'monumental' may be taken as hyperbole. Sorry if that confused you. This is, however, exactly what I was referring to: "oneness experience," and "nondual awareness." To one of the 99.715% (note: speculation there, and numerical hyperbole perhaps), like myself, who do not claim any such spiritual attainments, they seem rather special and monumental, as in significant points on the path. Thank you for clarifying that you are not beyond these but instead remain there (or whatever). From my understanding from what others have said about nondual awareness or realizing Oneness, this is a significant change of perspective. Radically life changing. Yet it seems like you do not share this and warn people away from such experiences for a fear of loss of clarity and stuckness. Is that misunderstood? Yes, very much misunderstood.. it is life changing, and yet nothing changes.. it is not monumental, in the instant of the experience that reveals that oneness and separation co-exist simultaneously there is a profound relaxation.. the seeking is over, the living begins.. and, it is as before the experience, but now there is genuine curiosity about what is actually happening..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 13:13:38 GMT -5
For our shared interest in clarity, I agree that 'monumental' may be taken as hyperbole. Sorry if that confused you. This is, however, exactly what I was referring to: "oneness experience," and "nondual awareness." To one of the 99.715% (note: speculation there, and numerical hyperbole perhaps), like myself, who do not claim any such spiritual attainments, they seem rather special and monumental, as in significant points on the path. Thank you for clarifying that you are not beyond these but instead remain there (or whatever). From my understanding from what others have said about nondual awareness or realizing Oneness, this is a significant change of perspective. Radically life changing. Yet it seems like you do not share this and warn people away from such experiences for a fear of loss of clarity and stuckness. Is that misunderstood? Yes, very much misunderstood.. it is life changing, and yet nothing changes.. it is not monumental, in the instant of the experience that reveals that oneness and separation co-exist simultaneously there is a profound relaxation.. the seeking is over, the living begins.. and, it is as before the experience, but now there is genuine curiosity about what is actually happening.. Your explanations of getting to the mountaintop, the pinnacle of clarity from where all life goals can be seen and where it is perfectly revealed that the whole is made of parts and from where living begins and that there is such a thing as cosmic consciousness and Cosmic Memory .... is what I characterize as a monumental experience. You can quibble with my characterization. Perhaps I'll understand the import of your quibble when I too summit the mountaintop too. But I'm sticking with the adjective for now.
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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2015 9:05:12 GMT -5
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Post by enigma on Mar 9, 2015 9:07:08 GMT -5
How does a conversation even happen nonconceptually? A famous person once said its ok to listen to rocks , just don't answer them.... That seems like a wise approach.
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