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Post by andrew on Feb 20, 2015 6:02:31 GMT -5
gopal, why is the realization that you speak of, not just another seeing in mind? What makes it different to you from other seeings in mind? The seeing which I am talking about the one which Enigma prescribe to other people to break the illusion, that seeing would not lead to the truth, that is also another creation of mind. If he says for clear knowing, then I do not have a problem, but this clear knowing can't be the goal for you and this is where Enigma fails. He is advising other people with the intent of realizing the truth. That won't happen, this is something that hits you automatically without your violation. Thanks.....what about the realization that there is nothing that can be done. Do you see this as a creation in mind?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 6:16:12 GMT -5
The seeing which I am talking about the one which Enigma prescribe to other people to break the illusion, that seeing would not lead to the truth, that is also another creation of mind. If he says for clear knowing, then I do not have a problem, but this clear knowing can't be the goal for you and this is where Enigma fails. He is advising other people with the intent of realizing the truth. That won't happen, this is something that hits you automatically without your violation. Thanks.....what about the realization that there is nothing that can be done. Do you see this as a creation in mind? Absolutely Not, When I say mind creation, It would repeat endlessly, when you initiate controlling,this controlling would be re-created again and again endlessly when you initiate allowing, this allowing would be re-created again and again endlessly, this never comes to an end, In the same way , when you initiate this seeing with intent of realizing truth, this seeing would be re-created again and again endlessly, this never comes to an end, it goes indefinitely, But when you keep go on one by one, controlling,allowing,seeing, you might happen to notice that these controlling,allowing,seeing repeats endlessly,that would lead you to the realization that nothing can be done, because whatever you do would be repeated. So what you reach at the end can't be the mind creation, another way of saying would be, mind doesn't have any way to repeat this as any other creation of it's own.
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Post by andrew on Feb 20, 2015 6:26:14 GMT -5
Thanks.....what about the realization that there is nothing that can be done. Do you see this as a creation in mind? Absolutely Not, When I say mind creation, It would repeat endlessly, when you initiate controlling,this controlling would be re-created again and again endlessly when you initiate allowing, this allowing would be re-created again and again endlessly, this never comes to an end, In the same way , when you initiate this seeing with intent of realizing truth, this seeing would be re-created again and again endlessly, this never comes to an end, it goes indefinitely, But when you keep go on one by one, controlling,allowing,seeing, you might happen to notice that these controlling,allowing,seeing repeats endlessly,that would lead you to the realization that nothing can be done, because whatever you do would be repeated. So what you reach at the end can't be the mind creation, another way of saying would be, mind doesn't have any way to repeat this as any other creation of it's own. Ahhhh so a 'mind creation' is one that repeats i.e. perpetuates the search. I see what you mean that 'realizing truth' would be a re-creating mind creation. I also see what you mean that realizing 'nothing can be done' would bring an end to those mind creations. For you, does 'nothing can be done' hinge on the idea that the universe is predetermined?
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Post by tzujanli on Feb 20, 2015 6:28:58 GMT -5
Hi gopal, sometimes I think I am like Enigmas fly that just buzzes around not thinking about the nature of realizations or that I exist. All I know for certain is that I am here. I am not denying that, All I know for certain is I exist, I can't know whether outer world exist, I can't know whether other individual exist, i can't know whether I am the only individual real and everybody else are just figments in my awareness. But what I was talking about is realization, It happens as a spark and subsequently informed in the form of thoughts, In my case I would say it would end up with recalling. What do you 'know' when you make love, or when someone threatens you? can your awareness make the threat disappear?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 6:57:30 GMT -5
Absolutely Not, When I say mind creation, It would repeat endlessly, when you initiate controlling,this controlling would be re-created again and again endlessly when you initiate allowing, this allowing would be re-created again and again endlessly, this never comes to an end, In the same way , when you initiate this seeing with intent of realizing truth, this seeing would be re-created again and again endlessly, this never comes to an end, it goes indefinitely, But when you keep go on one by one, controlling,allowing,seeing, you might happen to notice that these controlling,allowing,seeing repeats endlessly,that would lead you to the realization that nothing can be done, because whatever you do would be repeated. So what you reach at the end can't be the mind creation, another way of saying would be, mind doesn't have any way to repeat this as any other creation of it's own. Ahhhh so a 'mind creation' is one that repeats i.e. perpetuates the search. I see what you mean that 'realizing truth' would be a re-creating mind creation. I also see what you mean that realizing 'nothing can be done' would bring an end to those mind creations. For you, does 'nothing can be done' hinge on the idea that the universe is predetermined? No, Realization of 'Nothing can be done' put an end to my suffering. I say Universe is predetermined through Law of attraction and it's creation, For an example, If you tend to manifest a person(meeting a person) in your world, the movement of the person towards you must have been started even before the intention happens in your mind. More closely put, If you set an intention today to meet a person, the person movement towards you must have started many days ago, you could ask the person once that person is in your world.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 7:12:01 GMT -5
I am not denying that, All I know for certain is I exist, I can't know whether outer world exist, I can't know whether other individual exist, i can't know whether I am the only individual real and everybody else are just figments in my awareness. But what I was talking about is realization, It happens as a spark and subsequently informed in the form of thoughts, In my case I would say it would end up with recalling. What do you 'know' when you make love, or when someone threatens you? can your awareness make the threat disappear? No, it doesn't disappear in the same way it doesn't disappear in my dream when someone threatens me. So does it make any difference?
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Post by andrew on Feb 20, 2015 7:24:43 GMT -5
Ahhhh so a 'mind creation' is one that repeats i.e. perpetuates the search. I see what you mean that 'realizing truth' would be a re-creating mind creation. I also see what you mean that realizing 'nothing can be done' would bring an end to those mind creations. For you, does 'nothing can be done' hinge on the idea that the universe is predetermined? No, Realization of 'Nothing can be done' put an end to my suffering. I say Universe is predetermined through Law of attraction and it's creation, For an example, If you tend to manifest a person(meeting a person) in your world, the movement of the person towards you must have been started even before the intention happens in your mind. More closely put, If you set an intention today to meet a person, the person movement towards you must have started many days ago, you could ask the person once that person is in your world. What (if anything) does this realization hinge on? Does something have to happen, or be seen, or realized, in order that 'nothing can be done' can be realized?
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Post by enigma on Feb 20, 2015 11:25:30 GMT -5
By realizing it. Realization takes place in your awareness,in your presence. You are the witness of it. You are the realizer. There's no mystery. Enigma, yeah, if it takes place in my awareness then it is an appearance. If it doesn't appear I am not aware of it. Like any appearance it is not the actual thing in itself, or it's nature. I thought we were talking about it's nature and not it's appearance, but maybe not. Yes, we're talking about the nature of realization itself. I'm saying it's not hidden.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 11:29:40 GMT -5
No, Realization of 'Nothing can be done' put an end to my suffering. I say Universe is predetermined through Law of attraction and it's creation, For an example, If you tend to manifest a person(meeting a person) in your world, the movement of the person towards you must have been started even before the intention happens in your mind. More closely put, If you set an intention today to meet a person, the person movement towards you must have started many days ago, you could ask the person once that person is in your world. What (if anything) does this realization hinge on? Does something have to happen, or be seen, or realized, in order that 'nothing can be done' can be realized? Actually you can't do anything, there is an inner order for this to happen, that's an impersonal movement. But I tell you what has happen to me When I suffer I try to control the thoughts or divert the thoughts in some other direction which means I would try to think some happy thoughts, when I do this, it seems to be subsided, but later on time, again I would end up with new situation where I suffer, I would do the same practise of controlling those thoughts,In those days what I thought was one day in future this suffering would come to an end If I keep on controlling the thoughts, but this same situation kept on repeating in my life, then somewhere on the net, I have read that controlling never brings the end to suffering, but allowing would bring an end to this suffering, then I start allowing thoughts but then this allowing kept on repeating in my life, but later, I heard this seeing idea from Enigma, So I started to practise this 'seeing' technique, then I started to notice that this seeing too repeats, that's where the tremendous realization happens, whatever I do whether it's controlling,allowing,seeing would surely would be repeated by mind, because this all are creations of mind. So I realized that nothing can be done from my level, If do, I would end up with repeating those actions along with my suffering. Once I realized this great truth 'nothing can be done' that's where the suffering came to an end. This realization is called direct seeing. There is an another kind of realization is there, this kind of realization would suddenly hits you, once this happens, the recalling starts to happen, then everything would become clear to you. But I tell you, these realizations are something that happens from impersonal level though it includes all your mistake as a part it. It has it's own order to happen.
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Post by enigma on Feb 20, 2015 11:32:51 GMT -5
Yes. The notion of a self view arises out of nothingness, and returns. As common as it is, the idea is a bit odd. The self view? By this do you mean all we might believe about ourselves, as in esteem and self image? It was your term. Is that what you meant?
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Post by enigma on Feb 20, 2015 11:35:38 GMT -5
Okay, thanks for clarifying. Yes, realization is permanent because it does not refer to an appearance that comes and goes. It's not a conceptual truth or a piece of information that might be forgotten. As you implied, it's really an absence, and you can't lose an absence. Once an illusion is seen through, it loses all power to deceive, and since this seeing is not mind, it is self evident and leaves no doubt in it's wake. For the same reason, it is not stored as memory. It's not necessary to be able to talk about a realization, but if it IS talked about, it's best to speak from that place of seeing so that it's fresh and undistorted. So the seeing is not dependent upon anything in the impermanent physical realm. It is a function of Awareness itself. If realization is seeing through an illusion from which point does the seeing happen? An illusion lives in mind. Therefore the collapse of an illusion is a change in mind. Why is it that mind needs to be informed? Is it the lack of self-referentiality? "Mind needs to be informed" because "an illusion lives in mind". Did I miss something?
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Post by enigma on Feb 20, 2015 11:47:38 GMT -5
gopal, why is the realization that you speak of, not just another seeing in mind? What makes it different to you from other seeings in mind? The seeing which I am talking about the one which Enigma prescribe to other people to break the illusion, that seeing would not lead to the truth, that is also another creation of mind. If he says for clear knowing, then I do not have a problem, but this clear knowing can't be the goal for you and this is where Enigma fails. He is advising other people with the intent of realizing the truth. That won't happen, this is something that hits you automatically without your violation. Clear knowing = seeing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 12:04:09 GMT -5
The seeing which I am talking about the one which Enigma prescribe to other people to break the illusion, that seeing would not lead to the truth, that is also another creation of mind. If he says for clear knowing, then I do not have a problem, but this clear knowing can't be the goal for you and this is where Enigma fails. He is advising other people with the intent of realizing the truth. That won't happen, this is something that hits you automatically without your violation. Clear knowing = seeing. May be, but this can't be reached by some means(looking consistently)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 12:32:57 GMT -5
Hi gopal, sometimes I think I am like Enigmas fly that just buzzes around not thinking about the nature of realizations or that I exist. All I know for certain is that I am here. I am not denying that, All I know for certain is I exist, I can't know whether outer world exist, I can't know whether other individual exist, i can't know whether I am the only individual real and everybody else are just figments in my awareness. But what I was talking about is realization, It happens as a spark and subsequently informed in the form of thoughts, In my case I would say it would end up with recalling. Hi gopal, yeah, I didn't mean to imply that you were denying anything, I was just making a comment. I'm starting to believe there is no separation between Knowing and Being. In that Being and the Knowing of Being are one in the same. And that perhaps realization, as in God realization, may be Being with the absence of individuality, but I'm not sure.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 12:38:35 GMT -5
Enigma, yeah, if it takes place in my awareness then it is an appearance. If it doesn't appear I am not aware of it. Like any appearance it is not the actual thing in itself, or it's nature. I thought we were talking about it's nature and not it's appearance, but maybe not. Yes, we're talking about the nature of realization itself. I'm saying it's not hidden. enigma, yeah it's not hidden, I'm probably just over thinking it.
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