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Post by enigma on Feb 20, 2015 0:05:23 GMT -5
Stuff is impermanent because it takes the form of an appearance in motion. The coming and going is what makes it appear, and so all appearances are impermanent. The realization of an absence is not the appearance of something. This must take absence of self view, rather than the realization of true self view. Yes. The notion of a self view arises out of nothingness, and returns. As common as it is, the idea is a bit odd.
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Post by enigma on Feb 20, 2015 0:14:06 GMT -5
How do you know the nature of realization can't be known? Hi enigma, to me it's like I don't know what an appearance really is, as in the Thing in itself. How am I suppose to know that which isn't an appearance; the nature of realization? By realizing it. Realization takes place in your awareness,in your presence. You are the witness of it. You are the realizer. There's no mystery.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 0:25:37 GMT -5
Hi enigma, to me it's like I don't know what an appearance really is, as in the Thing in itself. How am I suppose to know that which isn't an appearance; the nature of realization? By realizing it. Realization takes place in your awareness,in your presence. You are the witness of it. You are the realizer. There's no mystery. Enigma, yeah, if it takes place in my awareness then it is an appearance. If it doesn't appear I am not aware of it. Like any appearance it is not the actual thing in itself, or it's nature. I thought we were talking about it's nature and not it's appearance, but maybe not.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 0:53:26 GMT -5
By realizing it. Realization takes place in your awareness,in your presence. You are the witness of it. You are the realizer. There's no mystery. Enigma, yeah, if it takes place in my awareness then it is an appearance. If it doesn't appear I am not aware of it. Like any appearance it is not the actual thing in itself, or it's nature. I thought we were talking about it's nature and not it's appearance, but maybe not. Yes you would be aware of that by subsequent thoughts about it, recalling happens automatically.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 1:05:49 GMT -5
Enigma, yeah, if it takes place in my awareness then it is an appearance. If it doesn't appear I am not aware of it. Like any appearance it is not the actual thing in itself, or it's nature. I thought we were talking about it's nature and not it's appearance, but maybe not. Yes you would be aware of that by subsequent thoughts about it, recalling happens automatically. Hi gopal, sometimes I think I am like Enigmas fly that just buzzes around not thinking about the nature of realizations or that I exist. All I know for certain is that I am here.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 1:32:20 GMT -5
Yes you would be aware of that by subsequent thoughts about it, recalling happens automatically. Hi gopal, sometimes I think I am like Enigmas fly that just buzzes around not thinking about the nature of realizations or that I exist. All I know for certain is that I am here. I am not denying that, All I know for certain is I exist, I can't know whether outer world exist, I can't know whether other individual exist, i can't know whether I am the only individual real and everybody else are just figments in my awareness. But what I was talking about is realization, It happens as a spark and subsequently informed in the form of thoughts, In my case I would say it would end up with recalling.
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Post by zin on Feb 20, 2015 2:06:23 GMT -5
(Firstly, hi vacant (and japhy))... Slowly over time, some understanding like this developed in me: "I don't have to do it alone." This doesn't sound like a realization because it developed in time and I can't clearly see a loss there. But it is related to absence of feeling of separation, maybe it is a minor realization? A similarity (to the descriptions here) is, it does not disappear. That I'm feeling that "I have to do something" may show I am not Self-realized... but the "I don't have to do it alone" feeling is still valid even in the case of 'unsuccess'. You DO have to do it alone.
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Post by lolly on Feb 20, 2015 4:18:31 GMT -5
This must take absence of self view, rather than the realization of true self view. Yes. The notion of a self view arises out of nothingness, and returns. As common as it is, the idea is a bit odd. The self view? By this do you mean all we might believe about ourselves, as in esteem and self image?
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Post by japhy on Feb 20, 2015 4:34:06 GMT -5
Okay, thanks for clarifying. Yes, realization is permanent because it does not refer to an appearance that comes and goes. It's not a conceptual truth or a piece of information that might be forgotten. As you implied, it's really an absence, and you can't lose an absence. Once an illusion is seen through, it loses all power to deceive, and since this seeing is not mind, it is self evident and leaves no doubt in it's wake. For the same reason, it is not stored as memory. It's not necessary to be able to talk about a realization, but if it IS talked about, it's best to speak from that place of seeing so that it's fresh and undistorted. So the seeing is not dependent upon anything in the impermanent physical realm. It is a function of Awareness itself. If realization is seeing through an illusion from which point does the seeing happen? An illusion lives in mind. Therefore the collapse of an illusion is a change in mind. Why is it that mind needs to be informed? Is it the lack of self-referentiality?
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Post by japhy on Feb 20, 2015 4:40:09 GMT -5
And "not alone" does not especially mean something like 'hand in hand with people', probably it includes people, nature, whatever 'life force' works through me, etc. You DO have to do it alone. Probably depends on your definition of alone. I wouldn't rely on other people doing the job for you in this buiness, but zindarud seems to refer to some interconnectedness. I don't see a problem.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 4:47:51 GMT -5
Okay, thanks for clarifying. Yes, realization is permanent because it does not refer to an appearance that comes and goes. It's not a conceptual truth or a piece of information that might be forgotten. As you implied, it's really an absence, and you can't lose an absence. Once an illusion is seen through, it loses all power to deceive, and since this seeing is not mind, it is self evident and leaves no doubt in it's wake. For the same reason, it is not stored as memory. It's not necessary to be able to talk about a realization, but if it IS talked about, it's best to speak from that place of seeing so that it's fresh and undistorted. So the seeing is not dependent upon anything in the impermanent physical realm. It is a function of Awareness itself. If realization is seeing through an illusion from which point does the seeing happen? An illusion lives in mind. Therefore the collapse of an illusion is a change in mind. Why is it that mind needs to be informed? Is it the lack of self-referentiality? Realization is knowing the truth for certain, I am very sure, this seeing would not lead to the truth because this seeing is also another creation to the mind. Seeing would be re-created as any other creation.
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Post by andrew on Feb 20, 2015 5:05:13 GMT -5
If realization is seeing through an illusion from which point does the seeing happen? An illusion lives in mind. Therefore the collapse of an illusion is a change in mind. Why is it that mind needs to be informed? Is it the lack of self-referentiality? Realization is knowing the truth for certain, I am very sure, this seeing would not lead to the truth because this seeing is also another creation to the mind. Seeing would be re-created as any other creation. gopal, why is the realization that you speak of, not just another seeing in mind? What makes it different to you from other seeings in mind?
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Post by japhy on Feb 20, 2015 5:05:34 GMT -5
Realization is knowing the truth for certain, I am very sure, this seeing would not lead to the truth because this seeing is also another creation to the mind. Seeing would be re-created as any other creation. Do you know for certain?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 5:48:26 GMT -5
Realization is knowing the truth for certain, I am very sure, this seeing would not lead to the truth because this seeing is also another creation to the mind. Seeing would be re-created as any other creation. Do you know for certain? There are certain things I know more than 100%, For an example, Happy/unhappy is the roller coaster, Freewill is illusion, Seeing never lead you to realize the truth, Seeing would be an another creation like controlling,allowing. Seeing is not better than controlling,allowing or any type of mind creation. Seeing is in fact another mind creation, But I would say clear knowing would break the illusion, but this clear knowing can't be caused from your level. When the realization happens, it's a sudden movement and once it happen and subsequently it would be revealed in thoughts, I would say it's kind of recalling starts to happen.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 5:56:20 GMT -5
Realization is knowing the truth for certain, I am very sure, this seeing would not lead to the truth because this seeing is also another creation to the mind. Seeing would be re-created as any other creation. gopal, why is the realization that you speak of, not just another seeing in mind? What makes it different to you from other seeings in mind? The seeing which I am talking about the one which Enigma prescribe to other people to break the illusion, that seeing would not lead to the truth, that is also another creation of mind. If he says for clear knowing, then I do not have a problem, but this clear knowing can't be the goal for you and this is where Enigma fails. He is advising other people with the intent of realizing the truth. That won't happen, this is something that hits you automatically without your violation.
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