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Post by zin on Feb 19, 2015 7:13:17 GMT -5
Are we then talking about some liberation, understanding or un-understanding? honestly no playing for the minute, is there realization to have , live, etc forget about all being as is? Is there an unknown in the room, that could be beneficial to find? Not yet asking to whom the benefit. Honest & eager curious questions. IMHO, realization is fundamentally the realization of what is not so; the seeing through of illusions. That nature of a realization may not be apparent even to the one who has realized, because of the nonconceptual nature of it. It may take the form of a clear view of the boundaries that form the illusion, making the false structure of the illusion apparent. The seeing itself is not really the seeing of something; not the acquisition of some conceptual knowledge. However, mind is (slowly or quickly) informed of this realization in a conceptual form, which primarily has the effect of collapsing beliefs and their associated mental momentum, but this absence can always be stated in a positive form so that it may seem like something is known. Really, there is nothing to know. For example, when the imaginary boundaries of separation collapse, it might be authoritatively declared that oneness is the case, but what is actually seen is not oneness, but the absence of separation. Oneness is not a bit of knowledge that is acquired in the realization, and in terms of the realization, has no significance. Something has been lost, and losing is the name of the game. The absence of boundaries is the endless, open space of Peace. (IMO) (Firstly, hi vacant (and japhy))... Slowly over time, some understanding like this developed in me: "I don't have to do it alone." This doesn't sound like a realization because it developed in time and I can't clearly see a loss there. But it is related to absence of feeling of separation, maybe it is a minor realization? A similarity (to the descriptions here) is, it does not disappear. That I'm feeling that "I have to do something" may show I am not Self-realized... but the "I don't have to do it alone" feeling is still valid even in the case of 'unsuccess'.
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Post by lolly on Feb 19, 2015 7:53:29 GMT -5
I was referring to te person losing the realization. Personally it seems at the moment that something, which has been clearly seen, can't be forgot. Of course, this might change any moment. Therefore I am probably not speaking about real impermanence. It is somehow hard to express. Yes the person might die, but the permanence I am talking about is more like: It is true now, now, now,... And this way it stays forever :-D. Of course there is some change with time. First it is new and a lot of focus is on it and, when the dust has settled, it goes more to the backround. But something stays or is it even absence of something? I don't know. Another problem I have, is the word "realisation" itself. People here and especially you are talking a lot about realizations. And I have been trying to locate them, but they are like fish. From memory I can say that something has been seen, but it's very hard to grasp. Then somewhere ZD wrote that he realized the difference between experience and realisation, which also got me interested. Okay, thanks for clarifying. Yes, realization is permanent because it does not refer to an appearance that comes and goes. It's not a conceptual truth or a piece of information that might be forgotten. As you implied, it's really an absence, and you can't lose an absence. Once an illusion is seen through, it loses all power to deceive, and since this seeing is not mind, it is self evident and leaves no doubt in it's wake. For the same reason, it is not stored as memory. It's not necessary to be able to talk about a realization, but if it IS talked about, it's best to speak from that place of seeing so that it's fresh and undistorted. So the seeing is not dependent upon anything in the impermanent physical realm. It is a function of Awareness itself. Ok, what I'm hearing is that realization doesn't happen as in it was already, and it isn't the absence of what does happen.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 19, 2015 7:58:18 GMT -5
Are we then talking about some liberation, understanding or un-understanding? honestly no playing for the minute, is there realization to have , live, etc forget about all being as is? Is there an unknown in the room, that could be beneficial to find? Not yet asking to whom the benefit. Honest & eager curious questions. IMHO, realization is fundamentally the realization of what is not so; the seeing through of illusions. That nature of a realization may not be apparent even to the one who has realized, because of the nonconceptual nature of it. It may take the form of a clear view of the boundaries that form the illusion, making the false structure of the illusion apparent. The seeing itself is not really the seeing of something; not the acquisition of some conceptual knowledge. However, mind is (slowly or quickly) informed of this realization in a conceptual form, which primarily has the effect of collapsing beliefs and their associated mental momentum, but this absence can always be stated in a positive form so that it may seem like something is known. Really, there is nothing to know. For example, when the imaginary boundaries of separation collapse, it might be authoritatively declared that oneness is the case, but what is actually seen is not oneness, but the absence of separation. Oneness is not a bit of knowledge that is acquired in the realization, and in terms of the realization, has no significance. Something has been lost, and losing is the name of the game. The absence of boundaries is the endless, open space of Peace. (IMO) That's the sound of a house of cards falling.............
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 8:34:08 GMT -5
IMHO, realization is fundamentally the realization of what is not so; the seeing through of illusions. That nature of a realization may not be apparent even to the one who has realized, because of the nonconceptual nature of it. It may take the form of a clear view of the boundaries that form the illusion, making the false structure of the illusion apparent. The seeing itself is not really the seeing of something; not the acquisition of some conceptual knowledge. However, mind is (slowly or quickly) informed of this realization in a conceptual form, which primarily has the effect of collapsing beliefs and their associated mental momentum, but this absence can always be stated in a positive form so that it may seem like something is known. Really, there is nothing to know. For example, when the imaginary boundaries of separation collapse, it might be authoritatively declared that oneness is the case, but what is actually seen is not oneness, but the absence of separation. Oneness is not a bit of knowledge that is acquired in the realization, and in terms of the realization, has no significance. Something has been lost, and losing is the name of the game. The absence of boundaries is the endless, open space of Peace. (IMO) That's the sound of a house of cards falling............. Huh?? I'd think that would be the bulletproof glue to keep the house of cards together. All this stuff I say is true, and you know it, but it's just not apparent for you right now. Presto!
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Post by japhy on Feb 19, 2015 16:34:55 GMT -5
(Firstly, hi vacant (and japhy))... Slowly over time, some understanding like this developed in me: "I don't have to do it alone." This doesn't sound like a realization because it developed in time and I can't clearly see a loss there. But it is related to absence of feeling of separation, maybe it is a minor realization? A similarity (to the descriptions here) is, it does not disappear. That I'm feeling that "I have to do something" may show I am not Self-realized... but the "I don't have to do it alone" feeling is still valid even in the case of 'unsuccess'. Hey zindarud, if you feel comfortable you might explain your understanding a bit. What is it (in: "I don't have to do it alone")? I think there are many other realisations to have except self-realisation.
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Post by zin on Feb 19, 2015 17:18:24 GMT -5
(Firstly, hi vacant (and japhy))... Slowly over time, some understanding like this developed in me: "I don't have to do it alone." This doesn't sound like a realization because it developed in time and I can't clearly see a loss there. But it is related to absence of feeling of separation, maybe it is a minor realization? A similarity (to the descriptions here) is, it does not disappear. That I'm feeling that "I have to do something" may show I am not Self-realized... but the "I don't have to do it alone" feeling is still valid even in the case of 'unsuccess'. Hey zindarud, if you feel comfortable you might explain your understanding a bit. What is it (in: "I don't have to do it alone")? I think there are many other realisations to have except self-realisation. 'It' is realization of a spiritual aim. If I was Self-realized maybe I wouldn't have an aim (or, this kind of aim), but as I am not so, the situation is this . I think my aim is not much different from other people's aims who do have 'spiritual' aims, it is sort of, being where the 'cause of causes' is at work. And "not alone" does not especially mean something like 'hand in hand with people', probably it includes people, nature, whatever 'life force' works through me, etc. (I said 'probably' because I hadn't thought about that feeling this much). So, there it is
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Post by enigma on Feb 19, 2015 20:26:32 GMT -5
IMHO, realization is fundamentally the realization of what is not so; the seeing through of illusions. That nature of a realization may not be apparent even to the one who has realized, because of the nonconceptual nature of it. It may take the form of a clear view of the boundaries that form the illusion, making the false structure of the illusion apparent. The seeing itself is not really the seeing of something; not the acquisition of some conceptual knowledge. However, mind is (slowly or quickly) informed of this realization in a conceptual form, which primarily has the effect of collapsing beliefs and their associated mental momentum, but this absence can always be stated in a positive form so that it may seem like something is known. Really, there is nothing to know. For example, when the imaginary boundaries of separation collapse, it might be authoritatively declared that oneness is the case, but what is actually seen is not oneness, but the absence of separation. Oneness is not a bit of knowledge that is acquired in the realization, and in terms of the realization, has no significance. Something has been lost, and losing is the name of the game. The absence of boundaries is the endless, open space of Peace. (IMO) (Firstly, hi vacant (and japhy))... Slowly over time, some understanding like this developed in me: "I don't have to do it alone." This doesn't sound like a realization because it developed in time and I can't clearly see a loss there. But it is related to absence of feeling of separation, maybe it is a minor realization? A similarity (to the descriptions here) is, it does not disappear. That I'm feeling that "I have to do something" may show I am not Self-realized... but the "I don't have to do it alone" feeling is still valid even in the case of 'unsuccess'. You DO have to do it alone.
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Post by enigma on Feb 19, 2015 20:40:57 GMT -5
Okay, thanks for clarifying. Yes, realization is permanent because it does not refer to an appearance that comes and goes. It's not a conceptual truth or a piece of information that might be forgotten. As you implied, it's really an absence, and you can't lose an absence. Once an illusion is seen through, it loses all power to deceive, and since this seeing is not mind, it is self evident and leaves no doubt in it's wake. For the same reason, it is not stored as memory. It's not necessary to be able to talk about a realization, but if it IS talked about, it's best to speak from that place of seeing so that it's fresh and undistorted. So the seeing is not dependent upon anything in the impermanent physical realm. It is a function of Awareness itself. Ok, what I'm hearing is that realization doesn't happen as in it was already, and it isn't the absence of what does happen. Stuff is impermanent because it takes the form of an appearance in motion. The coming and going is what makes it appear, and so all appearances are impermanent. The realization of an absence is not the appearance of something.
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Post by enigma on Feb 19, 2015 20:42:15 GMT -5
IMHO, realization is fundamentally the realization of what is not so; the seeing through of illusions. That nature of a realization may not be apparent even to the one who has realized, because of the nonconceptual nature of it. It may take the form of a clear view of the boundaries that form the illusion, making the false structure of the illusion apparent. The seeing itself is not really the seeing of something; not the acquisition of some conceptual knowledge. However, mind is (slowly or quickly) informed of this realization in a conceptual form, which primarily has the effect of collapsing beliefs and their associated mental momentum, but this absence can always be stated in a positive form so that it may seem like something is known. Really, there is nothing to know. For example, when the imaginary boundaries of separation collapse, it might be authoritatively declared that oneness is the case, but what is actually seen is not oneness, but the absence of separation. Oneness is not a bit of knowledge that is acquired in the realization, and in terms of the realization, has no significance. Something has been lost, and losing is the name of the game. The absence of boundaries is the endless, open space of Peace. (IMO) That's the sound of a house of cards falling............. What house, and why?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 20:45:04 GMT -5
(Firstly, hi vacant (and japhy))... Slowly over time, some understanding like this developed in me: "I don't have to do it alone." This doesn't sound like a realization because it developed in time and I can't clearly see a loss there. But it is related to absence of feeling of separation, maybe it is a minor realization? A similarity (to the descriptions here) is, it does not disappear. That I'm feeling that "I have to do something" may show I am not Self-realized... but the "I don't have to do it alone" feeling is still valid even in the case of 'unsuccess'. You DO have to do it alone. Hi enigma, yup, funny how these themes keep coming around.
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Post by enigma on Feb 19, 2015 20:47:16 GMT -5
That's the sound of a house of cards falling............. Huh?? I'd think that would be the bulletproof glue to keep the house of cards together. All this stuff I say is true, and you know it, but it's just not apparent for you right now. Presto! To be clear (cuz I dunno what either of yous be talkin bout), the nature of realization is apart from any particular realization itself. A realization doesn't necessarily reveal anything about it's own nature.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 20:58:30 GMT -5
Huh?? I'd think that would be the bulletproof glue to keep the house of cards together. All this stuff I say is true, and you know it, but it's just not apparent for you right now. Presto! To be clear (c uz I dunno what either of yous be talkin bout), the nature of realization is apart from any particular realization itself. A realization doesn't necessarily reveal anything about it's own nature. Hi enigma, I'm not sure either but it might involve the mind trying to know that which can't possibly be known; the nature of realization.
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Post by enigma on Feb 19, 2015 22:39:19 GMT -5
To be clear (c uz I dunno what either of yous be talkin bout), the nature of realization is apart from any particular realization itself. A realization doesn't necessarily reveal anything about it's own nature. Hi enigma, I'm not sure either but it might involve the mind trying to know that which can't possibly be known; the nature of realization. How do you know the nature of realization can't be known?
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Post by lolly on Feb 19, 2015 23:18:41 GMT -5
Ok, what I'm hearing is that realization doesn't happen as in it was already, and it isn't the absence of what does happen. Stuff is impermanent because it takes the form of an appearance in motion. The coming and going is what makes it appear, and so all appearances are impermanent. The realization of an absence is not the appearance of something. This must take absence of self view, rather than the realization of true self view.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 23:38:04 GMT -5
Hi enigma, I'm not sure either but it might involve the mind trying to know that which can't possibly be known; the nature of realization. How do you know the nature of realization can't be known? Hi enigma, to me it's like I don't know what an appearance really is, as in the Thing in itself. How am I suppose to know that which isn't an appearance; the nature of realization?
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