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Post by Reefs on Nov 27, 2013 21:26:22 GMT -5
Again, if someone says 'please stop doing that' and it's within your power to easily stop doing that, why not? Well, you tell us! Why didn't you stop quoting verbatim from emails even after someone said repeatedly "you don't have permission to do that"? And kept doing it for months?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 21:29:13 GMT -5
Again, if someone says 'please stop doing that' and it's within your power to easily stop doing that, why not? Well, you tell us! Why didn't you stop quoting verbatim from emails even after someone said repeatedly "you don't have permission to do that"? And kept doing it for months? Because in the scheme of things, I DID see it as important to the discussion. The Reefs that presents here is very different than the reefs that presented off line. You draw a hard line here yourself about folks walking their talk, and I was trying to get you to see that you do not do this yourself, and therefore, are being a hypocrite when you point to others with this accusation. If you tell me that mocking is important to you, and why, perhaps I can understand better.
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Post by Reefs on Nov 27, 2013 21:34:38 GMT -5
Well, you tell us! Why didn't you stop quoting verbatim from emails even after someone said repeatedly "you don't have permission to do that"? And kept doing it for months? Because in the scheme of things, I DID see it as important to the discussion. The Reefs that presents here is very different than the reefs that presented off line. You draw a hard line here yourself about folks walking their talk, and I was trying to get you to see that you do not do this yourself, and therefore, are being a hypocrite when you point to others with this accusation. If you tell me that mocking is important to you, and why, perhaps I can understand better. IOW, if it fits your agenda, it's perfectly warranted.
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Post by lolly on Nov 27, 2013 21:56:31 GMT -5
Can you see that there is a difference between actively trying to stop something from happening, (to put an end to mocking in the unmoderated section) and simply stating an opinion about the potential dangers of mocking? Like Andrew, I very much agree that the extreme and mean-spirited mocking that sometimes goes on here, is indeed reckless and could result in more harm than merely just being annoying or irritating to the one being mocked. You're misconstruing the recognition that mockery is a hurtful activity with a fear of being harmed. It's more to with the differing degrees of peoples sensitivity such as in cyber-bullying one individual is affected mildly while another might slash their wrists. You are aware of instances where individuals have become distressed due to prolonged mockery as well. Everyone knows it, and that's why the assumption that it is actually ill intended is fair to make, despite the eventual claim that the mockery is intended in 'the interests of'. That happened last night, so now we're back at the strategic stage where there's a bit of seeking out of vulnerabilities that can be penetrated to get under someone's skin and soon there will be assertions followed by name calling followed by blame followed by 'in the interests of' You perceive that I source the mockery, which is very obviously untrue. I wouldn't be specific about the individual/s because it merely exposes them, and it's most likely that they don't want to be involved at all. Naming the specific situations puts the individuals concerned at risk of harm... a risk that I'm sure we are all ware of. The idea in my case that there is a cycle, has been demonstrated twice, and I am noticing the early indicators of a third cycle. I'd love to be shown wrong, and see the cycle broken. I suggest that you sit back and observe and leave the 'propagandists' to their devises, and see for yourself if they continue to engage in mockery. I think you'll find that they wont, and you can then seek your source elsewhere.
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Post by lolly on Nov 27, 2013 22:01:35 GMT -5
Again, if someone says 'please stop doing that' and it's within your power to easily stop doing that, why not? Well, you tell us! Why didn't you stop quoting verbatim from emails even after someone said repeatedly "you don't have permission to do that"? And kept doing it for months? Not having permission is exactly it, Reefs. I elaborated with Laughter in my last post.
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Post by laughter on Nov 27, 2013 23:13:11 GMT -5
You're misconstruing the recognition that mockery is a hurtful activity with a fear of being harmed. It's more to with the differing degrees of peoples sensitivity such as in cyber-bullying one individual is affected mildly while another might slash their wrists. You are aware of instances where individuals have become distressed due to prolonged mockery as well. Everyone knows it, and that's why the assumption that it is actually ill intended is fair to make, despite the eventual claim that the mockery is intended in 'the interests of'. That happened last night, so now we're back at the strategic stage where there's a bit of seeking out of vulnerabilities that can be penetrated to get under someone's skin and soon there will be assertions followed by name calling followed by blame followed by 'in the interests of' You perceive that I source the mockery, which is very obviously untrue. I wouldn't be specific about the individual/s because it merely exposes them, and it's most likely that they don't want to be involved at all. Naming the specific situations puts the individuals concerned at risk of harm... a risk that I'm sure we are all ware of. The idea in my case that there is a cycle, has been demonstrated twice, and I am noticing the early indicators of a third cycle. I'd love to be shown wrong, and see the cycle broken. I suggest that you sit back and observe and leave the 'propagandists' to their devises, and see for yourself if they continue to engage in mockery. I think you'll find that they wont, and you can then seek your source elsewhere. Read that lolly and saw nothing new from you in it ... but for future reference please don't write within my quote block if you'd like a reply, thanks.
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Post by laughter on Nov 27, 2013 23:23:27 GMT -5
You join Andy and lolly on the bandwagon in repeating the meme that there were these past instances of reckless, potentially harmful, extreme and mean-spirited mocking that's gone on before here at ST.org. Each of you make an emotional appeal based on the fear of potential harm. This is classic propaganda. As far as I'm concerned the potential harm is one issue, there are lesser issues though. Mocking someone who disagrees is disrespectful and poor sport behavior...it's just not necessary to good discussion and understanding. It's an impediment to it. < > You repeat the meme-mantra about past instances of harmful mocking and then refuse to provide a specific example when confronted. It is blatant propagandizing. Again, if someone says 'please stop doing that' and it's within your power to easily stop doing that, why not? Have you ever seen a specific instance of that? As a hypo, I'd say in most cases, sure, of course it would make sense to stop. About the only case I can think of where it wouldn't is that if the person making the request is either mocking or trolling or engaged in some other sort of anti-social content generation. If you'll remember, you asked me that about JoeyQ earlier in the thread when his requests were an obvious parody as noone was mocking him at the time. </ >
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Post by laughter on Nov 27, 2013 23:32:21 GMT -5
O.k. well I gave figgles a chance and she took the route of the propagandist -- repetitively state a meme and then ignore demands for specifics. I'm not ruling out the possibility of reasonable conversation re-erupting out of nowhere at some point in this thread but at this point it's become a mocudrama free-for-all full-on-troll-fest. Somewhat illustrative in it's own right of course. I think it's hilarious that she won't confront me on referring to her as figgles ... nah, she doesn't want to ask that question .. (** muttley snicker **)
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Post by lolly on Nov 27, 2013 23:35:55 GMT -5
Read that lolly and saw nothing new from you in it ... but for future reference please don't write within my quote block if you'd like a reply, thanks. I said a lot of new things, such as the reason people such as myself do not wish to raise the specifics past mockery, particularly severe cases, that different people have different degrees of sensitivity to mockery, that there's a tactic of 'getting under peoples skin' and the suggestion that you just observe where the actual source. I also described what the indicators of what stage one would look like, and I notice very obvious indicators of that stage (not from you though, because you're not the source either).
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Post by laughter on Nov 27, 2013 23:36:38 GMT -5
As far as I'm concerned the potential harm is one issue, there are lesser issues though. Mocking someone who disagrees is disrespectful and poor sport behavior...it's just not necessary to good discussion and understanding. It's an impediment to it. Again, if someone says 'please stop doing that' and it's within your power to easily stop doing that, why not? Hi Figs, In general, I agree with you on that. The whole reason for the split forum was about this very thing...if Andy or anybody else wants to discuss x, y or z without all the pie-throwing and bunny-bopping, heh, they should make sure they engage on the other side. The unmod section is no holds barred, so there's that. I know -- I'm thinking I got a bit of a sea change goin' on here within my own self about this stuff. Even though I've found the 'mocking' by and large distasteful to a certain degree and without any decorum whatsoever, I am starting to see and acknowledge a certain rather significant value in it. I have a lot of trouble understanding the conversations much of the time, but I guess I understand a good food fight and that sorta thing. yup
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Post by laughter on Nov 27, 2013 23:39:16 GMT -5
Read that lolly and saw nothing new from you in it ... but for future reference please don't write within my quote block if you'd like a reply, thanks. I said a lot of new things, such as the reason people such as myself do not wish to raise the specifics past mockery, particularly severe cases, that different people have different degrees of sensitivity to mockery, that there's a tactic of 'getting under peoples skin' and the suggestion that you just observe where the actual source. I also described what the indicators of what stage one would look like, and I notice very obvious indicators of that stage (not from you though, because you're not the source either). I don't have much of an interest in the abstractions you're elaborating on primarily because I don't see specific instances of them and we're only speaking in hypo's. My interests lie more with what's going on on the forum.
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Post by lolly on Nov 27, 2013 23:48:07 GMT -5
I said a lot of new things, such as the reason people such as myself do not wish to raise the specifics past mockery, particularly severe cases, that different people have different degrees of sensitivity to mockery, that there's a tactic of 'getting under peoples skin' and the suggestion that you just observe where the actual source. I also described what the indicators of what stage one would look like, and I notice very obvious indicators of that stage (not from you though, because you're not the source either). I don't have much of an interest in the abstractions you're elaborating on primarily because I don't see specific instances of them and we're only speaking in hypo's. My interests lie more with what's going on on the forum. I explained why I wouldn't be specific... and I indicated the cycle twice over, and also indicated the first stage which occurring on the forum at this time. I will step back now, just so that you realize that I'm not the source. I am sure the mockery will not diminish in the least during my silence, and you may start looking in other directions.
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Post by laughter on Nov 28, 2013 0:01:35 GMT -5
I don't have much of an interest in the abstractions you're elaborating on primarily because I don't see specific instances of them and we're only speaking in hypo's. My interests lie more with what's going on on the forum. I explained why I wouldn't be specific... and I indicated the cycle twice over, and also indicated the first stage which occurring on the forum at this time. I will step back now, just so that you realize that I'm not the source. I am sure the mockery will not diminish in the least during my silence, and you may start looking in other directions. o.k.
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Post by laughter on Nov 28, 2013 0:18:24 GMT -5
Hi Figs, In general, I agree with you on that. The whole reason for the split forum was about this very thing...if Andy or anybody else wants to discuss x, y or z without all the pie-throwing and bunny-bopping, heh, they should make sure they engage on the other side. The unmod section is no holds barred, so there's that. I know -- I'm thinking I got a bit of a sea change goin' on here within my own self about this stuff. Even though I've found the 'mocking' by and large distasteful to a certain degree and without any decorum whatsoever, I am starting to see and acknowledge a certain rather significant value in it. I have a lot of trouble understanding the conversations much of the time, but I guess I understand a good food fight and that sorta thing. Yes, I understand what you're saying Silver...about moderated section vs. unmoderated. It was more of a hypothetical really, (if someone asks...why not just stop).... as I don't see that Andrew is actually attempting to stop anyone from doing anything, just more talking about his opinion about mocking. It's the seeming lack of introspection, or even the willingness to look into the basis of the mocking, on the part of the mockers that I'm struggling to understand.
But no, I'm not on a crusade to stamp out mocking here, more just trying to fulfill my own desire to understand why some so staunchly defend their right to mock.
I can't believe you just wrote that ... ... go back and read the thread ... It get particular, stubbornness is a very funny thing to witness. Laughter erupts. Make up whatever story about that you like.
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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2013 2:17:28 GMT -5
Yes, I understand what you're saying Silver...about moderated section vs. unmoderated. It was more of a hypothetical really, (if someone asks...why not just stop).... as I don't see that Andrew is actually attempting to stop anyone from doing anything, just more talking about his opinion about mocking. It's the seeming lack of introspection, or even the willingness to look into the basis of the mocking, on the part of the mockers that I'm struggling to understand.
But no, I'm not on a crusade to stamp out mocking here, more just trying to fulfill my own desire to understand why some so staunchly defend their right to mock.
I can't believe you just wrote that ... ... go back and read the thread ... It get particular, stubbornness is a very funny thing to witness. Laughter erupts. Make up whatever story about that you like. ** slowly backs away from thread **
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