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Post by enigma on Nov 15, 2013 11:57:09 GMT -5
I know. All I'm saying is, some fingers point directly to the moon, and other fingers point to Uranus. The fact that words are inadequate doesn't mean pointing to Uranus is just as good as pointing to the moon. ... It's only relevance is within the illusion of dream seekers and dream teachers. If your a dream seeker and want the best dream teacher, it's best to find one that points to the moon and not Uranus. It may have relevance to the realization of This. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 15, 2013 12:09:44 GMT -5
No, not knowing is a state of conciousness For me, when I say "I don't know" it's a response to a question or the dead end of an investigation. It's not a practice or anything. I just don't know. It might be a state of consciousness. It's like you're walking along outside looking directly at the ground. It's a cloudy misty day and you're just zero'd in on where you can see. Then you come to the edge of a cliff and you stop, looking out into the foggy abyss. When Socrates said 'I know that I know nothing' I don't think he was pointing to a particularly special state of mind or consciousness. He was primarily pointing to the foundationless of all knowledge. And also, he was pointing to the very simple fact of knowing this (also absurdly paradoxical). Yes, it's a matter of clarity rather than mind state. Of course, the knowledge is still there, and so it's not like Socrates couldn't remember what bed he was sposed to wake up in.  |
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Post by enigma on Nov 15, 2013 12:14:17 GMT -5
All those points are relevent to the knowing mind. But 'not knowing' can be a state of conciousness in this moment....it is the state of conciousness that UG went on about for his whole life...all of his 'teaching', almost everything he did with his students and friends was to get them to let go of knowing into a 'not knowing' state of conciousness. Its a very 'open' state of not identifying or understanding stuff, being empty of all that. When I look at a room, I don't look and identify, there is just the looking, the being....'not knowing' is a very primordial state. Really, there is not even a looking, just an IS empty of meaning, identification, and understanding. There is an openess in this, an un-narrowing of conciousness. Give it a try ;-) Sounds the same as 'coming empty.' Also attending the actual. Mayhaps betterer terms for what Steve is talking about than 'not knowing', but of course they're just terms. |
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Post by enigma on Nov 15, 2013 12:22:08 GMT -5
Not with the everywhere part, but maybe with the nowhere part. Ah o.k. could mean mental confusion? Way I see is that including the nowhere signals a distance from the idea of integrated interconnected oneness (  ) that leaving it off doesn't. "Wherever you go, that's where you are" specifically implies location. It sounds kinda clever but that implication is false, and it does contradict the 'everywhere/nowhere' pointer. (Fortunately, my 10 foot pole won't quite reach 'integrated interconnected oneness'. Hehe) |
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Post by laughter on Nov 15, 2013 20:21:13 GMT -5
Outsourcing your problem? That's still not allowing. No, I just get to the root of the problem ...enlightened people are creating more greed, teach greed, and are greedy in general . Okay "saving the world" might not been the best way to say it. Better might be "creating paradise." Look at Steve  wanting to provide for his family. Apparently he wants his family to have the things they need. Maybe he wants his children educated well? Maybe he wants his family to be happy? Apparently his family isn't enlightened. Maybe he enjoys seeing his children play at WaterLand. Well there are lots more children out there. Maybe everything is prefect. All the children suffering is prefect except his? *************** Look at the businesses. They pay the bottom like $7-$8 hours the top guys get sometimes millions a year. The bottom have to have two working in the family, children have to go to childcare. Not only do they get to work in better environments, clean air-conditioned offices etc. but they get paid ridiculous on top of it. I don't have to participate in the slavery. If they don't want to swing a hummer, pour hot steel, chop sugar cane, let them get an education that allows them to work in the office where they don't get dirty. The value they bring isn't better than the one chopping the sugar cane. No matter how much they think they are better. The guy chopping the sugar cane gets dirty, wares his clothes out. But without him there wouldn't be sugar. I understand it doesn't matter in the end. But in another way it does. The enlightened people seem no different than the regular people. It's cold comfort and doesn't account for injustice, but a life of service is it's own reward. It's a bit harder to understand and reconcile, but a life of thievery and violence is it's own punishment, even if it results in a richness of experience and great measures of pleasure and power. |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 17, 2013 2:30:52 GMT -5
Outsourcing your problem? That's still not allowing. No, I just get to the root of the problem ...enlightened people are creating more greed, teach greed, and are greedy in general . Okay "saving the world" might not been the best way to say it. Better might be "creating paradise." Look at Steve wanting to provide for his family. Apparently he wants his family to have the things they need. Maybe he wants his children educated well? Maybe he wants his family to be happy? Apparently his family isn't enlightened. Maybe he enjoys seeing his children play at WaterLand. Well there are lots more children out there. Maybe everything is prefect. All the children suffering is prefect except his? *************** Look at the businesses. They pay the bottom like $7-$8 hours the top guys get sometimes millions a year. The bottom have to have two working in the family, children have to go to childcare. Not only do they get to work in better environments, clean air-conditioned offices etc. but they get paid ridiculous on top of it. I don't have to participate in the slavery. If they don't want to swing a hummer, pour hot steel, chop sugar cane, let them get an education that allows them to work in the office where they don't get dirty. The value they bring isn't better than the one chopping the sugar cane. No matter how much they think they are better. The guy chopping the sugar cane gets dirty, wares his clothes out. But without him there wouldn't be sugar. I understand it doesn't matter in the end. But in another way it does. The enlightened people seem no different than the regular people. Steve has children? I don't think so. You believe in a limited amount of things going around. So when someone has more than the average Joe then he must have taken it from someone else who now has less than the average Joe. Fact is, however, that resources are unlimited. |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 17, 2013 5:31:15 GMT -5
Steve has children? I don't think so. You believe in a limited amount of things going around. So when someone has more than the average Joe then he must have taken it from someone else who now has less than the average Joe. Fact is, however, that resources are unlimited. No, I believe there are unlimited resources. Just look at the atom bomb. We have lots of atoms. It doesn't matter how one gets whatever they get, robbery, exploitation, working hard, or inheritance. It's irrelevant. But to watch others die is not irrelevent. What is money for? Actually, when you fall asleep at night, the 'others' all sorta kinda die - and you too. |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 17, 2013 7:12:02 GMT -5
Actually, when you fall asleep at night, the 'others' all sorta kinda die - and you too. So nothing exsist right now but this room I'm in and only the things I'm aware of? Nobody else exsit unless I'm aware of them? Is that what your saying? Depends on what you mean with 'I'. You may have to take a few steps further back until you get to the original subject-object thingy. |
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Post by tzujanli on Nov 17, 2013 9:44:39 GMT -5
Greetings.. Actually, when you fall asleep at night, the 'others' all sorta kinda die - and you too. So nothing exsist right now but this room I'm in and only the things I'm aware of? Nobody else exsit unless I'm aware of them? Is that what your saying? It is the illusion that some people are attached to.. if that were the case, it would be difficult to explain the process of electricity arriving at your room, or all of the necessities not directly produced and made by 'you'.. it is necessary to reject what is actually happening and accept an imagined illusion to 'believe' that nothing exists except what you are aware of.. notably, it would be expeditious to simply not notice or be aware of traffic so that it didn't exist and you could stroll across the freeway.. Be well.. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2013 13:09:36 GMT -5
Greetings.. So nothing exsist right now but this room I'm in and only the things I'm aware of? Nobody else exsit unless I'm aware of them? Is that what your saying? It is the illusion that some people are attached to.. if that were the case, it would be difficult to explain the process of electricity arriving at your room, or all of the necessities not directly produced and made by 'you'.. it is necessary to reject what is actually happening and accept an imagined illusion to 'believe' that nothing exists except what you are aware of.. notably, it would be expeditious to simply not notice or be aware of traffic so that it didn't exist and you could stroll across the freeway.. Be well.. It's not the illusion that some people are attached to...it's the illusion there are people with illusions... There is no you in which the thoughts of people with attachments, electricity, necessities, rejection of what's happening, imagined beliefs, traffic, or strolls on the freeway are arising... Tzu is an illusory appearance of Wholeness... All that's happening is This... |
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Post by tzujanli on Nov 17, 2013 13:45:02 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. It is the illusion that some people are attached to.. if that were the case, it would be difficult to explain the process of electricity arriving at your room, or all of the necessities not directly produced and made by 'you'.. it is necessary to reject what is actually happening and accept an imagined illusion to 'believe' that nothing exists except what you are aware of.. notably, it would be expeditious to simply not notice or be aware of traffic so that it didn't exist and you could stroll across the freeway.. Be well.. It's not the illusion that some people are attached to...it's the illusion there are people with illusions... There is no you in which the thoughts of people with attachments, electricity, necessities, rejection of what's happening, imagined beliefs, traffic, or strolls on the freeway are arising... Tzu is an illusory appearance of Wholeness... All that's happening is This... And, every reply you make proves your beliefs to be inconsistent with 'This'.. it's happening as i have described it, and you are imagining a situation that exists only in your mind.. Be well.. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2013 14:00:02 GMT -5
Greetings.. It's not the illusion that some people are attached to...it's the illusion there are people with illusions... There is no you in which the thoughts of people with attachments, electricity, necessities, rejection of what's happening, imagined beliefs, traffic, or strolls on the freeway are arising... Tzu is an illusory appearance of Wholeness... All that's happening is This... And, every reply you make proves your beliefs to be inconsistent with 'This'.. it's happening as i have described it, and you are imagining a situation that exists only in your mind.. Be well.. Only I'm not relating a belief, just like there's no you who's describing This... It's simplicity evades the you who's apparently here... |
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Post by tzujanli on Nov 17, 2013 14:20:09 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. And, every reply you make proves your beliefs to be inconsistent with 'This'.. it's happening as i have described it, and you are imagining a situation that exists only in your mind.. Be well.. Only I'm not relating a belief, just like there's no you who's describing This... It's simplicity evades the you who's apparently here... As you choose, it is your story to tell.. Be well.. |
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Post by earnest on Nov 17, 2013 16:55:03 GMT -5
Greetings.. So nothing exsist right now but this room I'm in and only the things I'm aware of? Nobody else exsit unless I'm aware of them? Is that what your saying? It is the illusion that some people are attached to.. if that were the case, it would be difficult to explain the process of electricity arriving at your room, or all of the necessities not directly produced and made by 'you'.. it is necessary to reject what is actually happening and accept an imagined illusion to 'believe' that nothing exists except what you are aware of.. notably, it would be expeditious to simply not notice or be aware of traffic so that it didn't exist and you could stroll across the freeway.. Be well.. Right now, I've got a coin in front of me, heads facing up. In my direct experience, right now, without beliefs, there is no tails. When I turn it over, the reverse is true - tails is facing up and there is no heads. I could spend all day turning the coin over, heads appearing then disappearing as tails appears. This is the direct experience. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2013 17:02:46 GMT -5
Greetings.. Only I'm not relating a belief, just like there's no you who's describing This... It's simplicity evades the you who's apparently here... As you choose, it is your story to tell.. Be well.. There is no chooser or teller of stories sitting at the computer... It might be possible for that sense of an I sitting at the computer to drop away... Of course the paradox is there's nothing that sense of an I can do to make that happen... It's the only unreal part of this discussion...  |
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) that leaving it off doesn't.
wanting to provide for his family. Apparently he wants his family to have the things they need. Maybe he wants his children educated well? Maybe he wants his family to be happy? Apparently his family isn't enlightened. Maybe he enjoys seeing his children play at WaterLand.
