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Post by silver on Oct 11, 2013 21:01:30 GMT -5
People tend to make things way too complicated.
We would do much better by watching certain species of animals, like the horse.
Why should any relatively complicated being such as humans or horses, and other similar ones, have to have approval from the next member of their crowd to feel anger or feel however they feel? Lines do get crossed and the beauty of the way horses behave is that they don't pull any punches, they just let each other know immediately how they feel. Notice is served, messages are immediately received.
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Post by acewall on Oct 11, 2013 21:05:17 GMT -5
People tend to make things way too complicated. We would do much better by watching certain species of animals, like the horse. Why should any relatively complicated being such as humans or horses, and other similar ones, have to have approval from the next member of their crowd to feel anger or feel however they feel? Lines do get crossed and the beauty of the way horses behave is that they don't pull any punches, they just let each other know immediately how they feel. Notice is served, messages are immediately received. Good observation... we(humans) have removed our individual-selves from our true Nature. Be natural.  |
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Post by acewall on Oct 11, 2013 21:12:20 GMT -5
Greetings.. Forgiveness means it never happened.. Be well.. I can see it if someone accidentally steps on someone's toes in a crowded place, but not big stuff, like a drunk driver kills your loved one(s) and stuff like that. Oh yeah, it can be forgiven, but obviously it did happen... some people practice denial in an effort to not deal with their emotions. Working things through doesn't dissolve the fact that shirt-happened. Forgiveness is like comming to terms with lifes 'orrible occasions. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2013 21:12:28 GMT -5
People tend to make things way too complicated. We would do much better by watching certain species of animals, like the horse. Why should any relatively complicated being such as humans or horses, and other similar ones, have to have approval from the next member of their crowd to feel anger or feel however they feel? Lines do get crossed and the beauty of the way horses behave is that they don't pull any punches, they just let each other know immediately how they feel. Notice is served, messages are immediately received. Forgiveness is for you, not for other people....also, forgiveness does not preclude having the capacity to defend oneself, though it may help with not making one feel as though they need to defend oneself when real danger is not immanent. Almost ALL danger is imagined....very rarely in western culture is someone's life or wellbeing actually threatened for realz in this moment. in those rare instances where danger is real, its good to remember that fear is not. On rare occasions, danger is real, but fear is never real, its a thought of an imagined future that is not now and may never be occurring. In any case, forgiveness is not something you do to get approval or for any reason relating to someone else....it is for you, for you alone, and for your benefit, any other benefits to anyone else are just a nice bonus. ;-) |
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Post by nowhereman on Oct 11, 2013 21:33:41 GMT -5
People tend to make things way too complicated. We would do much better by watching certain species of animals, like the horse. Why should any relatively complicated being such as humans or horses, and other similar ones, have to have approval from the next member of their crowd to feel anger or feel however they feel? Lines do get crossed and the beauty of the way horses behave is that they don't pull any punches, they just let each other know immediately how they feel. Notice is served, messages are immediately received. Forgiveness is for you, not for other people....also, forgiveness does not preclude having the capacity to defend oneself, though it may help with not making one feel as though they need to defend oneself when real danger is not immanent. Almost ALL danger is imagined....very rarely in western culture is someone's life or wellbeing actually threatened for realz in this moment. in those rare instances where danger is real, its good to remember that fear is not. On rare occasions, danger is real, but fear is never real, its a thought of an imagined future that is not now and may never be occurring. In any case, forgiveness is not something you do to get approval or for any reason relating to someone else....it is for you, for you alone, and for your benefit, any other benefits to anyone else are just a nice bonus. ;-) With respect this may be the result of forgiveness but it's certainly not the intentional part. One does not forgive another with the intention they are doing this for themselves. In real forgiveness the need to be empathic needs to there. You forgive another because you sense their pain |
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Post by laughter on Oct 12, 2013 5:17:30 GMT -5
Forgiveness is for you, not for other people....also, forgiveness does not preclude having the capacity to defend oneself, though it may help with not making one feel as though they need to defend oneself when real danger is not immanent. Almost ALL danger is imagined....very rarely in western culture is someone's life or wellbeing actually threatened for realz in this moment. in those rare instances where danger is real, its good to remember that fear is not. On rare occasions, danger is real, but fear is never real, its a thought of an imagined future that is not now and may never be occurring. In any case, forgiveness is not something you do to get approval or for any reason relating to someone else....it is for you, for you alone, and for your benefit, any other benefits to anyone else are just a nice bonus. ;-) With respect this may be the result of forgiveness but it's certainly not the intentional part. One does not forgive another with the intention they are doing this for themselves. In real forgiveness the need to be empathic needs to there. You forgive another because you sense their painEmpathy might provide a causal chain ... but is forgiveness given for a reason, and thereby conditional, really what you were referring to at the top of the page? |
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Post by nowhereman on Oct 12, 2013 12:11:46 GMT -5
With respect this may be the result of forgiveness but it's certainly not the intentional part. One does not forgive another with the intention they are doing this for themselves. In real forgiveness the need to be empathic needs to there. You forgive another because you sense their painEmpathy might provide a causal chain ... but is forgiveness given for a reason, and thereby conditional, really what you were referring to at the top of the page? Not sure what you mean..forgiveness comes in many forms. It's not a hard thing to understand. Even if it is given for a reason is I forgave my Dad by asking him to forgive me to let him off the hook so he could die in peace. I would not call this conditional. But in a broader sense all forgiveness is conditional as there is need for a condition to forgive. If there is no condition of any kind then there is noting to forgive. |
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Post by silver on Oct 12, 2013 12:17:10 GMT -5
One thing about this forgiveness business...or maybe more than one, is that you can say it out loud to someone and not really mean it -- and you can keep mum and really do it. So, I can't help but admit that it has potential to be a good thing -- even if you don't know you've been forgiven, to 'let things go' is it.  |
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Post by enigma on Oct 12, 2013 12:38:54 GMT -5
Greetings.. Forgiveness means it never happened.. Be well.. By and by, a recipe for self abuse.  |
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Post by enigma on Oct 12, 2013 12:50:36 GMT -5
I thought nondual stuff was all about the impersonal.  I know this makes you sad. But if someone where to come along and kill your children, your husband, and imprisons you, and whips your feet everyday... You could always say it's not personal. It seems to me love is personal too. Impersonal doesn't mean 'not meant personally'. It means that which is true is not about falsity. That which is actual is not about illusion. Genuine Love does not move in a personal way. Personal love is a reflection in a distorted mirror; truth seen through a glass darkly. It will bring with it it's cruel mate, without which it cannot live. |
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Post by enigma on Oct 12, 2013 13:02:46 GMT -5
That goes back to the question (albeit misconceived, to some), 'what is there to defend?' Again, it's a letting go of the belief in the self. Without that, there's really nothing to defend. For me, that notion of no person isn't going to happen anytime soon, if ever. For forgiveness to happen, it's the idea of 'no volition' that must be realized. |
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Post by enigma on Oct 12, 2013 13:10:38 GMT -5
I don't understand all this forgiveness business. I never forget and I never forgive. For me people are not like I am, instead they are things. It makes no sense to forgive something to a thing. So if someone betrays me then first I need proof that this person has changed its behaviour and then maybe I will change my attitude toward it. But words are not enough for this, words like "please, thanks and sorry" mean nothing to me. Horses and other animals are like that too -- which is a good thing. We can learn a very simple, easy way to be from them. I guess I'm somewhere in the middle. Depending on the individual horse/animal, they too can 'forgive' IF their owners or new owners show them consistently reasonable behavior. Animals don't actually forgive because they don't actually blame. The avoidance, defense, even aggression to which you've been alluding happens as a natural function of self preservation, and so there are reactions to abuse, but beyond that it isn't taken personally. This is what makes pets and babies seem unconditionally loving. No blame, no grudges, no retribution, no personal judgment. Yes, there's much to learn from them about how to live. |
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Post by tzujanli on Oct 12, 2013 15:53:46 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Forgiveness means it never happened.. Be well.. By and by, a recipe for self abuse. When forgiveness is actual, it is as if the offence never happened.. the offended party has been altered by what happened, but attachment to the reference is absent.. what is left is caution born of experience without the prejudicial expectation that the offender will repeat, or a reminder of the past offense.. Be well.. |
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Post by enigma on Oct 12, 2013 20:30:21 GMT -5
Greetings.. By and by, a recipe for self abuse. When forgiveness is actual, it is as if the offence never happened.. the offended party has been altered by what happened, but attachment to the reference is absent.. what is left is caution born of experience without the prejudicial expectation that the offender will repeat, or a reminder of the past offense.. Be well.. Okay. |
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Post by Beingist on Oct 13, 2013 11:11:30 GMT -5
Greetings.. By and by, a recipe for self abuse. When forgiveness is actual, it is as if the offence never happened.. the offended party has been altered by what happened, but attachment to the reference is absent.. what is left is caution born of experience without the prejudicial expectation that the offender will repeat, or a reminder of the past offense.. Be well.. Yes. |
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