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Post by zendancer on Aug 20, 2013 8:58:32 GMT -5
Q: You've asked about the realization thing repeatedly, so let me throw a few thoughts out there based on my own experiences and the experiences of hundreds of other people about whom I've read.
It seems to me that people pursue the non-duality path for several reasons. The primary motivator seems to be suffering and despair. Others hear about "enlightenment" and think that it will give them eternal bliss and happeniness. Still others (including moi) hit the path due to intellectual curiosity.
If we look at the big picture, there seems to be one common denominator to everyone who eventually attains Self-realization. With Self-realization seeking comes to an end, AND there is freedom FROM the mind. The mind remains fully functional and is informed by Self-realization, but the mind is no longer dominant. Many people stop seeking because they don't find anything, or because their interest simply shifts in another direction, but for people who become Self-realized (ignoring the few people who are "struck my lightning" out of the blue) the one common denominator is that they persistently spent time shifting attention away from thoughts.
Psalms 46:10 states: "Be still and know that I am God." This is a great injunction, but virtually no adult can follow it. The Buddha supposedly stated somewhere that if a person could remain totally silent for one week, s/he would find the Absolute. That may be true, but most people require some sort of temporary crutch to help them attain a degree of mental silence.
The Zen student sits on a mat for hours, or months, or years shifting attention away from thoughts to the breath or pure non-conceptual awareness (shikan taza).
The Indian devotee spends hours, months, or years shifting attention away from thoughts to "Ram, Ram, Ram," other names of God, or "Om, Om, Om."
Tess Hughes didn't like sitting meditation so she developed her own methodology of questioning the Will of God. She began to look at everything that her body did while asking, "Is this the Will of God or my will?" She also looked at "outside" events and asked, "Is that the Will of God?" This questioning and looking took her attention away from thoughts, and she eventually realized what was going on and who she IS.
Tibetan Buddhists use mantras, meditation, and visualizations.
This body/mind used all kinds of meditation, but eventually settled on ATA for reasons I've already explained in the past.
Someone I know who never liked formal meditation recently said, "My mind is a mess, and the only thing that I can shift attention to is universal sound. For that person universal sound may be her ticket to freedom.
Some people have used physical practices like Tai Chi in the same way. They simply watch what the body is doing, or feel what the body is doing, rather than watching endless strings of thoughts.
The bottom line seems to be that shifting attention away from thoughts to "what is" allows "what is" to be seen more and more clearly as it is. This attentiveness causes internal shifts in understanding that we call "realization." We are simply seeing "what is" as it is rather than our thoughts about it. As we do this, mind becomes more and more deeply informed by what is seen.
What appears to happen as a result of focusing attention upon "what is" rather than thoughts ABOUT "what is" is that it gets people out of their heads and reconnects them, psychologically, and bodily, with "what is." It is like shifting from head-knowing to body-knowing and the body/mind's innate intelligence eventually burns through cognitive illusions because thoughts are no longer keeping attention distracted.
Zen sometimes uses the "Zen Circle" to describe the path. Zero degrees is where adults start. I'm a good example of someone who spent 20 years at zero degrees because that's how long I spent thinking, reading, and trying to intellectually figure out what's going on. Ha ha. I didn't even set foot on the path until I began shifting attention away from thoughts. Only then did it become obvious that I had been living totally in my head for decades. The advantage of this forum and other similar forums is that folks can read about ignorant people like myself and learn that thinking leads away from the truth rather than toward it.
This is something that each person has to verify for him/herself, so it is like doing a scientific experiment on one's own consciousness. I always tell people to trust themselves 100%, but to use common sense, and look where all of the non-duality books and teachers are pointing.
You don't have to take anyone's word for any of this, but keep an open mind and look where these words are pointing.
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Post by serpentqueen on Aug 20, 2013 9:39:22 GMT -5
I dunno. I never "pursued" non-duality. I look back now and marvel at how nonduality pursued me! Somehow, without knowing it, I gravitated over and over again to non-dual teachers. Actually it was more like "stumbled upon" them. Like they were put in my path. I did not seek their teachings, their teachings found me. As for meditation, ATA, stilling the mind and quieting the thoughts... yesterday I was on E's site and read some quotes Reefs posted -- those in this thread titled "True Silence": realizinghappiness.freeforums.net/thread/57/daily-adya-quotes?page=1As someone with an incredibly chatty mind, those quotes made a whole lot more sense to me. There's no need to be silent - I am silence. Otherwise, as I explained to you in PM, it was my hubby who helped me "practice" being here/now, more than anyone or anything else. But, he'd never say he was trying to enlighten me, hee hee.. he just never wanted me to miss the sunset. Also, I suggest that if focusing attention hasn't worked, one might try unfocusing. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 10:08:28 GMT -5
I dunno. I never "pursued" non-duality. I look back now and marvel at how nonduality pursued me! Somehow, without knowing it, I gravitated over and over again to non-dual teachers. Actually it was more like "stumbled upon" them. Like they were put in my path. I did not seek their teachings, their teachings found me. As for meditation, ATA, stilling the mind and quieting the thoughts... yesterday I was on E's site and read some quotes Reefs posted -- those in this thread titled "True Silence": realizinghappiness.freeforums.net/thread/57/daily-adya-quotes?page=1As someone with an incredibly chatty mind, those quotes made a whole lot more sense to me. There's no need to be silent - I am silence. Otherwise, as I explained to you in PM, it was my hubby who helped me "practice" being here/now, more than anyone or anything else. But, he'd never say he was trying to enlighten me, hee hee.. he just never wanted me to miss the sunset. Also, I suggest that if focusing attention hasn't worked, one might try unfocusing. A thread reefs posted titled True Silence? I'm sure reefs is taking his words out of context to wax profanely with his own bs. Here's the Real Deal's website. Might as well get it straight from the source. www.adyashanti.org/reefs... lol |
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Post by serpentqueen on Aug 20, 2013 10:19:28 GMT -5
I dunno. I never "pursued" non-duality. I look back now and marvel at how nonduality pursued me! Somehow, without knowing it, I gravitated over and over again to non-dual teachers. Actually it was more like "stumbled upon" them. Like they were put in my path. I did not seek their teachings, their teachings found me. As for meditation, ATA, stilling the mind and quieting the thoughts... yesterday I was on E's site and read some quotes Reefs posted -- those in this thread titled "True Silence": realizinghappiness.freeforums.net/thread/57/daily-adya-quotes?page=1As someone with an incredibly chatty mind, those quotes made a whole lot more sense to me. There's no need to be silent - I am silence. Otherwise, as I explained to you in PM, it was my hubby who helped me "practice" being here/now, more than anyone or anything else. But, he'd never say he was trying to enlighten me, hee hee.. he just never wanted me to miss the sunset. Also, I suggest that if focusing attention hasn't worked, one might try unfocusing. A thread reefs posted titled True Silence? I'm sure reefs is taking his words out of context to wax profanely with his own bs. Here's the Real Deal's website. Might as well get it straight from the source. www.adyashanti.org/reefs... lol Sigh..... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 10:21:39 GMT -5
A thread reefs posted titled True Silence? I'm sure reefs is taking his words out of context to wax profanely with his own bs. Here's the Real Deal's website. Might as well get it straight from the source. www.adyashanti.org/reefs... lol Sigh..... double sigh..... Show me something worthwhile the malignant little bastard has posted here in the last 8 months. It can't be done. A thread of quotes on RH is his saving grace? I mock that. |
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Post by zendancer on Aug 20, 2013 10:22:25 GMT -5
I dunno. I never "pursued" non-duality. I look back now and marvel at how nonduality pursued me! Somehow, without knowing it, I gravitated over and over again to non-dual teachers. Actually it was more like "stumbled upon" them. Like they were put in my path. I did not seek their teachings, their teachings found me. As for meditation, ATA, stilling the mind and quieting the thoughts... yesterday I was on E's site and read some quotes Reefs posted -- those in this thread titled "True Silence": realizinghappiness.freeforums.net/thread/57/daily-adya-quotes?page=1As someone with an incredibly chatty mind, those quotes made a whole lot more sense to me. There's no need to be silent - I am silence. Otherwise, as I explained to you in PM, it was my hubby who helped me "practice" being here/now, more than anyone or anything else. But, he'd never say he was trying to enlighten me, hee hee.. he just never wanted me to miss the sunset. Also, I suggest that if focusing attention hasn't worked, one might try unfocusing. Good post. It illustrates how different we all are. Some people pursue non-duality with a vengeance, and some people encounter it seemingly by accident. Tolle didn't pursue non-duality, but he got sucked into a vortex by one silly thought, and the whole world from his POV got turned upside down. One friend of mine never had an unusual experience of any kind until after a quiet and very subtle realization. Another friend of mine was consumed with the desire to find God, and turned to non-duality only after he realized that his church couldn't offer him any advice concerning how to do that. The book, "Everyday Enlightenment," includes the stories of seven different people who awakened, and every story is strikingly different. I started this particular thread primarily for people who already have a strong intellectual interest in non-duality, and are looking for a way to resolve existential questions and find what Jesus called "the living truth." |
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Post by zendancer on Aug 20, 2013 10:23:32 GMT -5
A thread reefs posted titled True Silence? I'm sure reefs is taking his words out of context to wax profanely with his own bs. Here's the Real Deal's website. Might as well get it straight from the source. www.adyashanti.org/reefs... lol Sigh..... double sigh..... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 10:28:56 GMT -5
Triple sigh... You can't possibly believe reefs is awake. Take a look at the carnage he's left here in his wake. |
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Post by silver on Aug 20, 2013 10:30:51 GMT -5
Triple sigh... You can't possibly believe reefs is awake. Take a look at the carnage he's left here in his wake.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 10:51:21 GMT -5
ZD, my impression is that Self-realization is very rare, especially if taking into account the whole population of peeps who've purposely practiced shifting their attention away from the habit of thinking. I feel Q's frustration about this. I have no idea, but say it's .01% of peeps in that population who are no longer shackled to the habit of thinking or identified with thoughts or howeveryouwannasayit. I imagine this is still a higher percentage than if you looked at the general pop and how many folks just spontaneously dissociated from a belief in separation/self. Still, it's such a tiny fraction, it does make one wonder if it's just random.
edit: That said, here we are. And it happens.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 11:25:21 GMT -5
ZD, my impression is that Self-realization is very rare, especially if taking into account the whole population of peeps who've purposely practiced shifting their attention away from the habit of thinking. I feel Q's frustration about this. I have no idea, but say it's .01% of peeps in that population who are no longer shackled to the habit of thinking or identified with thoughts or howeveryouwannasayit. I imagine this is still a higher percentage than if you looked at the general pop and how many folks just spontaneously dissociated from a belief in separation/self. Still, it's such a tiny fraction, it does make one wonder if it's just random. edit: That said, here we are. And it happens. You've hit the nail on the head with that one... The attention is fixated on conceiving and not on perceiving... It's impossible for a conception, that of a separate human being in a separate objective world to move the attention. It's no mystery though, it moves from conceiving to perceiving when it does. And not through the attempts of a spiritual self with deeper and deeper conceiving... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 12:05:46 GMT -5
ZD, my impression is that Self-realization is very rare, especially if taking into account the whole population of peeps who've purposely practiced shifting their attention away from the habit of thinking. I feel Q's frustration about this. I have no idea, but say it's .01% of peeps in that population who are no longer shackled to the habit of thinking or identified with thoughts or howeveryouwannasayit. I imagine this is still a higher percentage than if you looked at the general pop and how many folks just spontaneously dissociated from a belief in separation/self. Still, it's such a tiny fraction, it does make one wonder if it's just random. edit: That said, here we are. And it happens. You've hit the nail on the head with that one... The attention is fixated on conceiving and not on perceiving... It's impossible for a conception, that of a separate human being in a separate objective world to move the attention. It's no mystery though, it moves from conceiving to perceiving when it does. And not through the attempts of a spiritual self with deeper and deeper conceiving... Seems like a mystery to me. The only explanation I have is that it is just another manifestation of conditioning. It's just that there seems to be a tighter circle of conditioning happening, reinforcing itself. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 12:17:37 GMT -5
Q: You've asked about the realization thing repeatedly, so let me throw a few thoughts out there based on my own experiences and the experiences of hundreds of other people about whom I've read. It seems to me that people pursue the non-duality path for several reasons. The primary motivator seems to be suffering and despair. Others hear about "enlightenment" and think that it will give them eternal bliss and happeniness. Still others (including moi) hit the path due to intellectual curiosity. If we look at the big picture, there seems to be one common denominator to everyone who eventually attains Self-realization. With Self-realization seeking comes to an end, AND there is freedom FROM the mind. The mind remains fully functional and is informed by Self-realization, but the mind is no longer dominant. Many people stop seeking because they don't find anything, or because their interest simply shifts in another direction, but for people who become Self-realized (ignoring the few people who are "struck my lightning" out of the blue) the one common denominator is that they persistently spent time shifting attention away from thoughts. Psalms 46:10 states: "Be still and know that I am God." This is a great injunction, but virtually no adult can follow it. The Buddha supposedly stated somewhere that if a person could remain totally silent for one week, s/he would find the Absolute. That may be true, but most people require some sort of temporary crutch to help them attain a degree of mental silence. The Zen student sits on a mat for hours, or months, or years shifting attention away from thoughts to the breath or pure non-conceptual awareness (shikan taza). The Indian devotee spends hours, months, or years shifting attention away from thoughts to "Ram, Ram, Ram," other names of God, or "Om, Om, Om." Tess Hughes didn't like sitting meditation so she developed her own methodology of questioning the Will of God. She began to look at everything that her body did while asking, "Is this the Will of God or my will?" She also looked at "outside" events and asked, "Is that the Will of God?" This questioning and looking took her attention away from thoughts, and she eventually realized what was going on and who she IS. Tibetan Buddhists use mantras, meditation, and visualizations. This body/mind used all kinds of meditation, but eventually settled on ATA for reasons I've already explained in the past. Someone I know who never liked formal meditation recently said, "My mind is a mess, and the only thing that I can shift attention to is universal sound. For that person universal sound may be her ticket to freedom. Some people have used physical practices like Tai Chi in the same way. They simply watch what the body is doing, or feel what the body is doing, rather than watching endless strings of thoughts. The bottom line seems to be that shifting attention away from thoughts to "what is" allows "what is" to be seen more and more clearly as it is. This attentiveness causes internal shifts in understanding that we call "realization." We are simply seeing "what is" as it is rather than our thoughts about it. As we do this, mind becomes more and more deeply informed by what is seen. What appears to happen as a result of focusing attention upon "what is" rather than thoughts ABOUT "what is" is that it gets people out of their heads and reconnects them, psychologically, and bodily, with "what is." It is like shifting from head-knowing to body-knowing and the body/mind's innate intelligence eventually burns through cognitive illusions because thoughts are no longer keeping attention distracted. Zen sometimes uses the "Zen Circle" to describe the path. Zero degrees is where adults start. I'm a good example of someone who spent 20 years at zero degrees because that's how long I spent thinking, reading, and trying to intellectually figure out what's going on. Ha ha. I didn't even set foot on the path until I began shifting attention away from thoughts. Only then did it become obvious that I had been living totally in my head for decades. The advantage of this forum and other similar forums is that folks can read about ignorant people like myself and learn that thinking leads away from the truth rather than toward it. This is something that each person has to verify for him/herself, so it is like doing a scientific experiment on one's own consciousness. I always tell people to trust themselves 100%, but to use common sense, and look where all of the non-duality books and teachers are pointing. You don't have to take anyone's word for any of this, but keep an open mind and look where these words are pointing. I enjoyed reading this. Thanks. Even thou I believe zendancer is most like filled with greed. It's okay, I'll help you overcome it.  One has to give credit where due. |
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Aug 20, 2013 16:39:36 GMT -5
Q: You've asked about the realization thing repeatedly, so let me throw a few thoughts out there based on my own experiences and the experiences of hundreds of other people about whom I've read. Bobby, you have told the same story many times, and unfortunately you haven't actually engaged with my question. You already know that I have tried your ATA practise for years, and it didn't work. You also know that I categorically refuse to do any practise and that I don't miss a chance to troll those who try to sell them. My view is that I am how I am, and if that's not good enough (for whatever) then so be it, but I will not change for anyone or anything. If I have to change in order to attain an existential truth then it is not worth bothering with, and, even if it is a truth, it is not my truth. If there is an important truth or realization or whatever then I want to have it for free without any effort at all on my part. If that means that I am therefore disqualified then so be it. I will not be a supporter of a world where such principles function. I don't have an open mind and I don't care for other people's opinions and I don't care about what worked for them. Unlike you I'm not like a scientist, for example when I read the news I usually skip the section about the new scientific findings. I simply don't care about how the world "really" works, because it's not mine anyway, I'm just a tourist here, in the same way I don't care about existential truths. |
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Post by zendancer on Aug 20, 2013 17:37:21 GMT -5
ZD, my impression is that Self-realization is very rare, especially if taking into account the whole population of peeps who've purposely practiced shifting their attention away from the habit of thinking. I feel Q's frustration about this. I have no idea, but say it's .01% of peeps in that population who are no longer shackled to the habit of thinking or identified with thoughts or howeveryouwannasayit. I imagine this is still a higher percentage than if you looked at the general pop and how many folks just spontaneously dissociated from a belief in separation/self. Still, it's such a tiny fraction, it does make one wonder if it's just random. edit: That said, here we are. And it happens. Max: I'm more of an optimist than you are. Ha ha. All contractors/builders have to be optimists, or we'd never remain in the construction business. Call it an occupational hazard. When I speak to people, I know that most of them think I'm talking to separate entities, but that's not my understanding. Who people think they are (Betty, Bill, John, Tom, Hazel, etc) cannot do anything because who they think they are is totally imaginary. A person cannot make a choice about anything because personhood/selfhood imaginary. This is why the volitional issue raises such ire with people. From my POV there is only THIS, so when this body/mind speaks or writes, it is always speaking or writing to what it is--THIS. What I call "THIS" manifests as what appears to be separate body/minds, but there is no real separateness at all. In what we can imagine as "a room full of people" THIS is the only non-thing thing that speaks, and THIS is the only non-thing thing that hears, and how each body/mind reacts to the spoken words used as pointers is a total mystery. Yes, it can be frustrating to make what seems like a volitional effort to accomplish something--in this case Self realization--without any apparent results, but the same thing is happening all the time every day and goes unnoticed. My favorite example is the person who decides to go on a diet. He says to himself, "Tomorrow I'll get up and start my new diet." If he would simply watch what happens, he would see that sometimes "what is" corresponds with what the mind thinks, and sometimes it doesn't. The motivation, intention, and expectation is identical, but sometimes the body/mind diets and sometimes it doesn't. Because conceptual expectation frequently corresponds to reality, the illusion of volition arises, but the truth is beyond either the idea of volition or the idea of non-volition. As I've noted before, Carol and I often get a lot of laughs about this. I'll tell her that I'm going to do thus and so. She'll come to office, see me, and say, "I thought you said that you were going to go do thus and so?" I usually respond, "Yes, that's what I thought I was going to do, but obviously I was wrong!" Ha ha. Of course, there is no wrongness at all. "What is"--THIS--does whatever it does. Sometimes it corresponds to our thinking, and sometimes it doesn't. THIS is aware of Itself, and It unfolds Itself perfectly in accordance with Its' isness. THIS is writing these words as a body/mind we can call "ZD" and it is reading these words as a body/mind we can call "Max." ZD and Max are always doing exactly what they have to be doing, even though they will never know for sure what they have to be doing until they see themselves doing it. The good news, for people who think that they are separate entities, is that the illusion of separateness is collapsing for increasingly greater and greater numbers of people. In 1985 I only knew of one person in the entire country who was supposedly Self-realized. Today, I know dozens of such people, and I've read about hundreds (if not thousands) of others. As their stories become known, more and more people will look within themselves in an effort to discover what's going on. Tolle, alone, has probably prompted tens of thousands of people to pursue a non-dual understanding of reality. Who could have imagined thirty years ago that a book about non-duality would become the top-selling non-fiction book on the NYT bestseller list? It's pretty incredible! My best advice? Persistently shift attention away from thoughts to "what is" until the cognitive illusion of selfhood collapses. This advice is not given to the imaginary "Max;" it is given to what is reading these words via the body/mind we call "Max." |
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