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Post by laughter on Aug 21, 2013 10:25:06 GMT -5
(** chews unpopped kernel of popcorn **) I understand Q's frustration with the "what is" pointer, as I shared it, but that's not to suggest I shared it for the same reasons as Q. I'd heard similar pointers but they made no sense to me at all -- not until recently. The problem for me is that when I focused on "what is," without thoughts, freaky things would start to happen, which made me question my own sanity. People would refer to Reality and what was going on with me sure didn't seem like reality -- it seemed more like a one-way ticket to a mental hospital! But I knew (deep down) I wasn't crazy, so I kept figuring it was some trick I was playing on myself, or that there must be some logical, rational explanation for the syncs and the glitches in the matrix and all that weird dream-like, magical stuff. Perhaps you can see why, for some of us, pointing to "Reality" or "realer than real" or "what is" doesn't quite work? Oh, and also the "ordinary" pointer. They make sense NOW, but I have to wonder if there's not another pointer that would have been better, or maybe in the end it just doesn't matter and none of the pointers actually do a thing? Then again maybe absorbing all the pointers by osmosis, whether understood or not, did it's magic, as THIS talked to itself. That it's not really possible to express what it is about the pointers that clicks at some point is a facet of their nature. They state ideas that ultimately don't make any sense to the thinking mind in the context of the consensus trance. No matter how sophisticated and nuanced or simple and direct an explanation of one of them gets, there will always be someone who will take issue with the explanation, and arguing with those issues is no more following the pointer than raising them. Taking the world at face value based on common conditioning and experience suggests a disjointed landscape of separate objects with ourselves sometimes at the center, and in other instances at the periphery of some external center. Looking outward with the thinking mind and the help of technology suggests a subtly interconnected reality extending out in unimaginably immense physical scales looking either outward or inward. The synchronicitys that we can notice if we look suggest a small and hyperconnected reality. That reality isn't what it seems is there for the looking if someone wants to look based on the simplest of questions, say, such as, what does it mean to be happy? ... as long as the person looking looks openly without relying on preconceived notions. That attempting to express what is seen results in apparent contradiction and statements of paradox from the thinking mind is just an artifact of the thinking minds limitations. "Ordinary", when seen with eyes free of conceptual screens, is of course, anything but. Being present means never having to say "I'm bored".
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Post by laughter on Aug 21, 2013 10:33:50 GMT -5
YES to zd And Oui, Si, Tak, Da and Jabol! ... it was funny the way that turned ...
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Post by mamza on Aug 21, 2013 17:27:01 GMT -5
Just do whatever you do, and then do whatever you're doing next. Don't worry about what you're going to do next or what you did before while you're doing what you're doing now. Sounds good to me. It reminds me of ZM Seung Sahn's advice, "Only go straight; only don't know; just do it." I was thinking the same thing when I wrote it, haha. I almost straight up quoted him.
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Post by silence on Aug 21, 2013 17:29:47 GMT -5
Max: I'm more of an optimist than you are. Ha ha. All contractors/builders have to be optimists, or we'd never remain in the construction business. Call it an occupational hazard. When I speak to people, I know that most of them think I'm talking to separate entities, but that's not my understanding. Who people think they are (Betty, Bill, John, Tom, Hazel, etc) cannot do anything because who they think they are is totally imaginary. A person cannot make a choice about anything because personhood/selfhood imaginary. This is why the volitional issue raises such ire with people. From my POV there is only THIS, so when this body/mind speaks or writes, it is always speaking or writing to what it is--THIS. What I call "THIS" manifests as what appears to be separate body/minds, but there is no real separateness at all. In what we can imagine as "a room full of people" THIS is the only non-thing thing that speaks, and THIS is the only non-thing thing that hears, and how each body/mind reacts to the spoken words used as pointers is a total mystery. Yes, it can be frustrating to make what seems like a volitional effort to accomplish something--in this case Self realization--without any apparent results, but the same thing is happening all the time every day and goes unnoticed. My favorite example is the person who decides to go on a diet. He says to himself, "Tomorrow I'll get up and start my new diet." If he would simply watch what happens, he would see that sometimes "what is" corresponds with what the mind thinks, and sometimes it doesn't. The motivation, intention, and expectation is identical, but sometimes the body/mind diets and sometimes it doesn't. Because conceptual expectation frequently corresponds to reality, the illusion of volition arises, but the truth is beyond either the idea of volition or the idea of non-volition. As I've noted before, Carol and I often get a lot of laughs about this. I'll tell her that I'm going to do thus and so. She'll come to office, see me, and say, "I thought you said that you were going to go do thus and so?" I usually respond, "Yes, that's what I thought I was going to do, but obviously I was wrong!" Ha ha. Of course, there is no wrongness at all. "What is"--THIS--does whatever it does. Sometimes it corresponds to our thinking, and sometimes it doesn't. THIS is aware of Itself, and It unfolds Itself perfectly in accordance with Its' isness. THIS is writing these words as a body/mind we can call "ZD" and it is reading these words as a body/mind we can call "Max." ZD and Max are always doing exactly what they have to be doing, even though they will never know for sure what they have to be doing until they see themselves doing it. The good news, for people who think that they are separate entities, is that the illusion of separateness is collapsing for increasingly greater and greater numbers of people. In 1985 I only knew of one person in the entire country who was supposedly Self-realized. Today, I know dozens of such people, and I've read about hundreds (if not thousands) of others. As their stories become known, more and more people will look within themselves in an effort to discover what's going on. Tolle, alone, has probably prompted tens of thousands of people to pursue a non-dual understanding of reality. Who could have imagined thirty years ago that a book about non-duality would become the top-selling non-fiction book on the NYT bestseller list? It's pretty incredible! My best advice? Persistently shift attention away from thoughts to "what is" until the cognitive illusion of selfhood collapses. This advice is not given to the imaginary "Max;" it is given to what is reading these words via the body/mind we call "Max." Some good stuff there on volition. I seem to be straddling that fence. Non volition makes sense, yet I experience the frustration of volition failed.. I like how you phrased this: "sometimes "what is" corresponds with what the mind thinks, and sometimes it doesn't. The motivation, intention, and expectation is identical, but sometimes the body/mind diets and sometimes it doesn't. Because conceptual expectation frequently corresponds to reality, the illusion of volition arises, but the truth is beyond either the idea of volition or the idea of non-volition." You are an optimist. It's probably hardwired. I'm an optimist too. But my understanding of what you refer to as THIS is still founded on imagination so I really don't have much to go on there. ATA and effortless meditation happens, despite any lack of 'progress.' Same old in and out attention, mind hooks and distraction. Obviously there's an expectation that someday distraction will be a memory only. And obviously there is a reliance on time still. Whatever! It should be obvious enough that progress can only relate to the quality of your experience. In other words, you're not about to grow wings and turn into an angel or anything. Meanwhile, all of the pointers are essentially pointing away from experience and so looking at what mind is doing or not doing is irrelevant. This can either be the point where you say to hell with this crap or it immediately clicks what a pointer really is and you look.
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Post by silence on Aug 21, 2013 17:38:13 GMT -5
(** chews unpopped kernel of popcorn **) I understand Q's frustration with the "what is" pointer, as I shared it, but that's not to suggest I shared it for the same reasons as Q. I'd heard similar pointers but they made no sense to me at all -- not until recently. The problem for me is that when I focused on "what is," without thoughts, freaky things would start to happen, which made me question my own sanity. People would refer to Reality and what was going on with me sure didn't seem like reality -- it seemed more like a one-way ticket to a mental hospital! But I knew (deep down) I wasn't crazy, so I kept figuring it was some trick I was playing on myself, or that there must be some logical, rational explanation for the syncs and the glitches in the matrix and all that weird dream-like, magical stuff. Perhaps you can see why, for some of us, pointing to "Reality" or "realer than real" or "what is" doesn't quite work? Oh, and also the "ordinary" pointer. They make sense NOW, but I have to wonder if there's not another pointer that would have been better, or maybe in the end it just doesn't matter and none of the pointers actually do a thing? Then again maybe absorbing all the pointers by osmosis, whether understood or not, did it's magic, as THIS talked to itself. My impression is generally that people can spend years wrestling with what a pointer actually is rather than needing some perfected signpost. People basically have the hand with the extended finger under a microscope and all they can see are the hairs of the hand and the texture of the skin. Zoom out and it's obvious it's just a hand pointing to something.
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Post by mamza on Aug 21, 2013 17:39:45 GMT -5
Just do whatever you do, and then do whatever you're doing next. Don't worry about what you're going to do next or what you did before while you're doing what you're doing now. Good to hear from you dude. This is good sh!t you say here. How is it compared to your everyday existence? I don't know how good what I say is, because most of it's difficult to even think up so it's probably overdone horseshit that only works for me. It pretty much is everyday existence. I don't think too often about what I'm going to do later, and I'm too focused on what I'm doing to worry TOO much about things I've done before. Sure there's spacing out here and there, and sometimes I'll get upset about something that'll bug me for a while. But once it's done it's done--I don't drop thoughts about someone pissing me off and then bring them back up later. I get pissed off, then distracted by something. Poof. Gone. No more anger. The point is, I just do whatever's most pressing at the time. Sometimes that's nothing. A lot of times that's nothing. But it's dinner time, so I'll talk to you kids later. Laughter: *Highfive*
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Aug 21, 2013 17:49:48 GMT -5
Good to hear from you dude. This is good sh!t you say here. How is it compared to your everyday existence? I don't know how good what I say is, because most of it's difficult to even think up so it's probably overdone horsenuts that only works for me. It pretty much is everyday existence. I don't think too often about what I'm going to do later, and I'm too focused on what I'm doing to worry TOO much about things I've done before. Sure there's spacing out here and there, and sometimes I'll get upset about something that'll bug me for a while. But once it's done it's done--I don't drop thoughts about someone pissing me off and then bring them back up later. I get pissed off, then distracted by something. Poof. Gone. No more anger. The point is, I just do whatever's most pressing at the time. Sometimes that's nothing. A lot of times that's nothing. But it's dinner time, so I'll talk to you kids later. Laughter: *Highfive* Blah blah blah. It's fake bullshít and you know it. You still have nothing and you're trying to imagine it to be more than it is.
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Aug 21, 2013 17:51:36 GMT -5
My impression is generally that people can spend years wrestling with what a pointer actually is rather than needing some perfected signpost. People basically have the hand with the extended finger under a microscope and all they can see are the hairs of the hand and the texture of the skin. Zoom out and it's obvious it's just a hand pointing to something. People aren't as stupid as you think. They know what a pointer is. The problem is that when they look where it's pointing they don't find anything.
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Post by mamza on Aug 21, 2013 17:53:07 GMT -5
I don't know how good what I say is, because most of it's difficult to even think up so it's probably overdone horsenuts that only works for me. It pretty much is everyday existence. I don't think too often about what I'm going to do later, and I'm too focused on what I'm doing to worry TOO much about things I've done before. Sure there's spacing out here and there, and sometimes I'll get upset about something that'll bug me for a while. But once it's done it's done--I don't drop thoughts about someone pissing me off and then bring them back up later. I get pissed off, then distracted by something. Poof. Gone. No more anger. The point is, I just do whatever's most pressing at the time. Sometimes that's nothing. A lot of times that's nothing. But it's dinner time, so I'll talk to you kids later. Laughter: *Highfive* Blah blah blah. It's fake bullshít and you know it. You still have nothing and you're trying to imagine it to be more than it is. To the contrary, I agree with you. I have nothing. Having nothing looks like normal, everyday life. I just happen to be okay with that.
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Post by topology on Aug 21, 2013 17:56:51 GMT -5
Blah blah blah. It's fake bullshít and you know it. You still have nothing and you're trying to imagine it to be more than it is. To the contrary, I agree with you. I have nothing. Having nothing looks like normal, everyday life. I just happen to be okay with that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2013 18:01:39 GMT -5
(** chews unpopped kernel of popcorn **) I understand Q's frustration with the "what is" pointer, as I shared it, but that's not to suggest I shared it for the same reasons as Q. I'd heard similar pointers but they made no sense to me at all -- not until recently. The problem for me is that when I focused on "what is," without thoughts, freaky things would start to happen, which made me question my own sanity. People would refer to Reality and what was going on with me sure didn't seem like reality -- it seemed more like a one-way ticket to a mental hospital! But I knew (deep down) I wasn't crazy, so I kept figuring it was some trick I was playing on myself, or that there must be some logical, rational explanation for the syncs and the glitches in the matrix and all that weird dream-like, magical stuff. Perhaps you can see why, for some of us, pointing to "Reality" or "realer than real" or "what is" doesn't quite work? Oh, and also the "ordinary" pointer. They make sense NOW, but I have to wonder if there's not another pointer that would have been better, or maybe in the end it just doesn't matter and none of the pointers actually do a thing? Then again maybe absorbing all the pointers by osmosis, whether understood or not, did it's magic, as THIS talked to itself. ZD, what drops like a stone (sometime bouncing back) an in time settles at its centre of gravity?
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Aug 21, 2013 18:01:49 GMT -5
Blah blah blah. It's fake bullshít and you know it. You still have nothing and you're trying to imagine it to be more than it is. To the contrary, I agree with you. I have nothing. Having nothing looks like normal, everyday life. I just happen to be okay with that. No, you're not okay with it. You're aggrandizing it with your "oh look everyone, I have normal life, just like Bobby and the great Zen Master Seung Sahn". Fúck off, it's fake. If you really have normal life then you don't log into the interwebs and tell all about it to strangers from all over the world.
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Post by enigma on Aug 21, 2013 18:06:59 GMT -5
YES to zd But he didn't write that for you.
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Post by silence on Aug 21, 2013 18:10:30 GMT -5
My impression is generally that people can spend years wrestling with what a pointer actually is rather than needing some perfected signpost. People basically have the hand with the extended finger under a microscope and all they can see are the hairs of the hand and the texture of the skin. Zoom out and it's obvious it's just a hand pointing to something. People aren't as stupid as you think. They know what a pointer is. The problem is that when they look where it's pointing they don't find anything. Most people become so familiar with resolving all issues directly with thought or feeling that a pointer just becomes an instruction to think about something in a different way or induce a different feeling. This can indeed create a different mental landscape where it appears as though one actually looked when nothing more than thought examining thought has happened. The other and more pertinent issue is of course that there is not only no incentive to look but even an underlying fear to seeing through the habituated structure of thought that wants to enlighten itself in its many varieties. There's not actually something of substance to hold up and say you found this. Just ideas evaporating.
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Post by silence on Aug 21, 2013 18:18:28 GMT -5
To the contrary, I agree with you. I have nothing. Having nothing looks like normal, everyday life. I just happen to be okay with that. No, you're not okay with it. You're aggrandizing it with your "oh look everyone, I have normal life, just like Bobby and the great Zen Master Seung Sahn". Fúck off, it's fake. If you really have normal life then you don't log into the interwebs and tell all about it to strangers from all over the world. What happened to the assertion that people aren't idiots and liars?
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