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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 21:20:17 GMT -5
We are greedy because we believe in lack... What is it that he wouldn't understand is so lacking in your life ZD??! *looks around quizzically. Shakes head. Goes to another thread.* ZD: "I'm far greedier than you can imagine, but you don't understand my greediness". No wonder he can't understand your greediness...you run away when confronted with your conceiving... If your going to run away why bring it up in the first place??!
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Post by laughter on Aug 21, 2013 3:50:34 GMT -5
My best advice? Persistently shift attention away from thoughts to "what is" until the cognitive illusion of selfhood collapses. (** chews unpopped kernel of popcorn **)
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Post by laughter on Aug 21, 2013 3:51:36 GMT -5
Bobby, you have told the same story many times, and unfortunately you haven't actually engaged with my question. You already know that I have tried your ATA practise for years, and it didn't work. You also know that I categorically refuse to do any practise and that I don't miss a chance to troll those who try to sell them. My view is that I am how I am, and if that's not good enough (for whatever) then so be it, but I will not change for anyone or anything. If I have to change in order to attain an existential truth then it is not worth bothering with, and, even if it is a truth, it is not my truth. If there is an important truth or realization or whatever then I want to have it for free without any effort at all on my part. If that means that I am therefore disqualified then so be it. I will not be a supporter of a world where such principles function. I don't have an open mind and I don't care for other people's opinions and I don't care about what worked for them. Unlike you I'm not like a scientist, for example when I read the news I usually skip the section about the new scientific findings. I simply don't care about how the world "really" works, because it's not mine anyway, I'm just a tourist here, in the same way I don't care about existential truths. I understand, but I didn't write anything for "you." Everything I write is for ME. (** mutley snicker **)
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Post by laughter on Aug 21, 2013 3:54:55 GMT -5
Just do whatever you do, and then do whatever you're doing next. Don't worry about what you're going to do next or what you did before while you're doing what you're doing now. (** splash **)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2013 4:47:23 GMT -5
I understand, but I didn't write anything for "you." Everything I write is for ME. (** mutley snicker **) YES to zd
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Aug 21, 2013 4:50:54 GMT -5
I don't understand what that has anything to do with it. Are you saying that ZD was simply trying to troll back at me? I'm not sure where you think I was trolling. When I'm trolling then usually it's very obvious. No, not saying zd's trolling back. I think with peeps like you and E, for example, I'm a bit on the dull side, but I sometimes get the feeling you both have a subtle way of doing it - which is the most artful way but like I said, I'm not always sure. I just don't think zd has any intentions of doing stuff like that. In some ways, even zd is unconscious, though. No, I don't troll in the same way as E or Laughter and others. I do it the ethical way. When I troll then it's not only obvious, but also in ways that it discredits me in the process because usually I do it so over the top that I look like an idiot. I don't troll in ways that are not obvious to the one who is being trolled. I don't make fun of others without them having a chance to fight back, and with me it's always one on one, i.e. I don't do inside jokes where the ridiculed is left clueless and the cool guys giggle in the corner at his expense.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2013 5:22:07 GMT -5
No, not saying zd's trolling back. I think with peeps like you and E, for example, I'm a bit on the dull side, but I sometimes get the feeling you both have a subtle way of doing it - which is the most artful way but like I said, I'm not always sure. I just don't think zd has any intentions of doing stuff like that. In some ways, even zd is unconscious, though. No, I don't troll in the same way as E or Laughter and others. I do it the ethical way. When I troll then it's not only obvious, but also in ways that it discredits me in the process because usually I do it so over the top that I look like an idiot. I don't troll in ways that are not obvious to the one who is being trolled. I don't make fun of others without them having a chance to fight back, and with me it's always one on one, i.e. I don't do inside jokes where the ridiculed is left clueless and the cool guys giggle in the corner at his expense. My I is superior to all the other "I's" Idiots are Precious. My "I" is still superior than all the other I's. What could it be like to be small, like a child. The way of least-resistance is female alot like surrender. Us men can learn alot from Females.
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Post by serpentqueen on Aug 21, 2013 7:46:48 GMT -5
Moving this to the other thread...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2013 7:46:59 GMT -5
ZD, my impression is that Self-realization is very rare, especially if taking into account the whole population of peeps who've purposely practiced shifting their attention away from the habit of thinking. I feel Q's frustration about this. I have no idea, but say it's .01% of peeps in that population who are no longer shackled to the habit of thinking or identified with thoughts or howeveryouwannasayit. I imagine this is still a higher percentage than if you looked at the general pop and how many folks just spontaneously dissociated from a belief in separation/self. Still, it's such a tiny fraction, it does make one wonder if it's just random. edit: That said, here we are. And it happens. Max: I'm more of an optimist than you are. Ha ha. All contractors/builders have to be optimists, or we'd never remain in the construction business. Call it an occupational hazard. When I speak to people, I know that most of them think I'm talking to separate entities, but that's not my understanding. Who people think they are (Betty, Bill, John, Tom, Hazel, etc) cannot do anything because who they think they are is totally imaginary. A person cannot make a choice about anything because personhood/selfhood imaginary. This is why the volitional issue raises such ire with people. From my POV there is only THIS, so when this body/mind speaks or writes, it is always speaking or writing to what it is--THIS. What I call "THIS" manifests as what appears to be separate body/minds, but there is no real separateness at all. In what we can imagine as "a room full of people" THIS is the only non-thing thing that speaks, and THIS is the only non-thing thing that hears, and how each body/mind reacts to the spoken words used as pointers is a total mystery. Yes, it can be frustrating to make what seems like a volitional effort to accomplish something--in this case Self realization--without any apparent results, but the same thing is happening all the time every day and goes unnoticed. My favorite example is the person who decides to go on a diet. He says to himself, "Tomorrow I'll get up and start my new diet." If he would simply watch what happens, he would see that sometimes "what is" corresponds with what the mind thinks, and sometimes it doesn't. The motivation, intention, and expectation is identical, but sometimes the body/mind diets and sometimes it doesn't. Because conceptual expectation frequently corresponds to reality, the illusion of volition arises, but the truth is beyond either the idea of volition or the idea of non-volition. As I've noted before, Carol and I often get a lot of laughs about this. I'll tell her that I'm going to do thus and so. She'll come to office, see me, and say, "I thought you said that you were going to go do thus and so?" I usually respond, "Yes, that's what I thought I was going to do, but obviously I was wrong!" Ha ha. Of course, there is no wrongness at all. "What is"--THIS--does whatever it does. Sometimes it corresponds to our thinking, and sometimes it doesn't. THIS is aware of Itself, and It unfolds Itself perfectly in accordance with Its' isness. THIS is writing these words as a body/mind we can call "ZD" and it is reading these words as a body/mind we can call "Max." ZD and Max are always doing exactly what they have to be doing, even though they will never know for sure what they have to be doing until they see themselves doing it. The good news, for people who think that they are separate entities, is that the illusion of separateness is collapsing for increasingly greater and greater numbers of people. In 1985 I only knew of one person in the entire country who was supposedly Self-realized. Today, I know dozens of such people, and I've read about hundreds (if not thousands) of others. As their stories become known, more and more people will look within themselves in an effort to discover what's going on. Tolle, alone, has probably prompted tens of thousands of people to pursue a non-dual understanding of reality. Who could have imagined thirty years ago that a book about non-duality would become the top-selling non-fiction book on the NYT bestseller list? It's pretty incredible! My best advice? Persistently shift attention away from thoughts to "what is" until the cognitive illusion of selfhood collapses. This advice is not given to the imaginary "Max;" it is given to what is reading these words via the body/mind we call "Max." Some good stuff there on volition. I seem to be straddling that fence. Non volition makes sense, yet I experience the frustration of volition failed.. I like how you phrased this: "sometimes "what is" corresponds with what the mind thinks, and sometimes it doesn't. The motivation, intention, and expectation is identical, but sometimes the body/mind diets and sometimes it doesn't. Because conceptual expectation frequently corresponds to reality, the illusion of volition arises, but the truth is beyond either the idea of volition or the idea of non-volition." You are an optimist. It's probably hardwired. I'm an optimist too. But my understanding of what you refer to as THIS is still founded on imagination so I really don't have much to go on there. ATA and effortless meditation happens, despite any lack of 'progress.' Same old in and out attention, mind hooks and distraction. Obviously there's an expectation that someday distraction will be a memory only. And obviously there is a reliance on time still. Whatever!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2013 7:48:18 GMT -5
Just do whatever you do, and then do whatever you're doing next. Don't worry about what you're going to do next or what you did before while you're doing what you're doing now. Good to hear from you dude. This is good sh!t you say here. How is it compared to your everyday existence?
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Post by serpentqueen on Aug 21, 2013 8:48:27 GMT -5
I understand, but I didn't write anything for "you." Everything I write is for ME. That's okay, but next time please don't adress it to me unless it really is in response to my question.
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Post by silver on Aug 21, 2013 8:51:02 GMT -5
No, I don't troll in the same way as E or Laughter and others. I do it the ethical way. When I troll then it's not only obvious, but also in ways that it discredits me in the process because usually I do it so over the top that I look like an idiot. I don't troll in ways that are not obvious to the one who is being trolled. I don't make fun of others without them having a chance to fight back, and with me it's always one on one, i.e. I don't do inside jokes where the ridiculed is left clueless and the cool guys giggle in the corner at his expense. My I is superior to all the other "I's" Idiots are Precious. My "I" is still superior than all the other I's. What could it be like to be small, like a child. The way of least-resistance is female alot like surrender. Us men can learn alot from Females. I like that, alfio.... but you know what happens when they don't.
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Post by zendancer on Aug 21, 2013 8:54:22 GMT -5
Just do whatever you do, and then do whatever you're doing next. Don't worry about what you're going to do next or what you did before while you're doing what you're doing now. Good to hear from you dude. This is good sh!t you say here. How is it compared to your everyday existence? From reading Mamza's other posts, I'd guess that he's accurately describing his everyday existence.
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Post by serpentqueen on Aug 21, 2013 9:05:22 GMT -5
My best advice? Persistently shift attention away from thoughts to "what is" until the cognitive illusion of selfhood collapses. (** chews unpopped kernel of popcorn **) I understand Q's frustration with the "what is" pointer, as I shared it, but that's not to suggest I shared it for the same reasons as Q. I'd heard similar pointers but they made no sense to me at all -- not until recently. The problem for me is that when I focused on "what is," without thoughts, freaky things would start to happen, which made me question my own sanity. People would refer to Reality and what was going on with me sure didn't seem like reality -- it seemed more like a one-way ticket to a mental hospital! But I knew (deep down) I wasn't crazy, so I kept figuring it was some trick I was playing on myself, or that there must be some logical, rational explanation for the syncs and the glitches in the matrix and all that weird dream-like, magical stuff. Perhaps you can see why, for some of us, pointing to "Reality" or "realer than real" or "what is" doesn't quite work? Oh, and also the "ordinary" pointer. They make sense NOW, but I have to wonder if there's not another pointer that would have been better, or maybe in the end it just doesn't matter and none of the pointers actually do a thing? Then again maybe absorbing all the pointers by osmosis, whether understood or not, did it's magic, as THIS talked to itself.
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Post by serpentqueen on Aug 21, 2013 9:07:23 GMT -5
No, I don't troll in the same way as E or Laughter and others. I do it the ethical way. When I troll then it's not only obvious, but also in ways that it discredits me in the process because usually I do it so over the top that I look like an idiot. I don't troll in ways that are not obvious to the one who is being trolled. I don't make fun of others without them having a chance to fight back, and with me it's always one on one, i.e. I don't do inside jokes where the ridiculed is left clueless and the cool guys giggle in the corner at his expense. My I is superior to all the other "I's" Idiots are Precious. My "I" is still superior than all the other I's. What could it be like to be small, like a child. The way of least-resistance is female alot like surrender. Us men can learn alot from Females. You should put that one on the poetry thread. I like it.
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