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Post by hybrid on Jul 27, 2013 23:08:11 GMT -5
its part of the religious philosphy called apophatic theology or the neagtive approach. ver popuplar nin chrsitian mysticism and sufism. jesus taught it- crucify the self- anatta as well as budhha the hindu ewuivalent is neti neti nor this not that what is the point? except for an experience of cosmic sigh of relief, it provides an additional understanding to the nature of consciouness and the subjective experience Apophatic theology (from Ancient Greek:  ??, from ? – apoph?mi, "to deny")—also known as negative theology, via negativa or via negationis[1] (Latin for "negative way" or "by way of denial")—is a theology that attempts to describe God, the Divine Good, by negation, to speak only in terms of what may not be said about the perfect goodness that is God.[2] It stands in contrast with cataphatic theology. Have you studied formally or does this come from self-directed exploration? No judgement, your expression feels formal and you've been laying bread crumbs to see if anyone would engage you. (that's what it looks like to me) just contributing. its an accumulated knowledge from the correlation of evertyhing i can get my hands into |
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 28, 2013 11:03:42 GMT -5
Greetings.. Age-old discussion it seems, in certain circles ... to what end does it serve to deny the validity of our person-hood? I am looking forward to all the 'personal expressions' which I 'unashamedly assume' will be forthcoming, with great fervor.  Hi Sound, I wouldn't call it denying the validity of personhood so much as seeing into the nature of personhood which has a tremendous impact on that personhood. Enigma talks about there being no separate volitional person, which is not to say that there is not a non-separate "volitional" appearance of a person. Growing up through childhood the mind tries to figure out who "I am" is. The child sees everyone else talking about their stories and is encouraged to buy into those stories and cultivate it's own story about itself. Soon that story is emotionally attached to and it becomes the vehicle through which the individual relates to their whole experience. While the story slowly evolves over time, too much change leads to emotional and existential turmoil, so threats to the story are defended against and often the best defense is a good offense. It is sobering to see how much people are engaged into story telling without realizing fundamentally that it is just a story. People get trapped in their stories and try to trap others in stories. Personhood is a story we tell. It is highly functional for making the world go round, but it can get highly dysfunctional as well when we attach to a particular story. Personhood is not being denied, that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater as it is a highly functional way of operating in the world. But its nature must be understood and we must realize that ultimately we are not the stories we tell if we want to find any real sense of peace, freedom, and effective functionality. The appeal to the story about 'appearance' is disingenuous, but a useful expedient for creating the desired illusion.. the claim that there only the 'appearance' of "a separate volitional person", has the same validity as saying the red stuff leaking out of the laceration on your body is only an 'appearance', that it's not 'real'.. both statements may or may not be true, but we interact with the actuality of both statements because they impose a 'force' upon what is actually happening.. regardless of stories about appearances or what may or may not be true, it is our 'relationship', what we actually do, relative to the 'forces' that affect our existence, shape our understandings.. it is possible to conjure infinite story-lines, and it is the intensity of belief in those stories that create the forces of cause and effect.. The 'story' can affect our existence, by virtue of someone acting on their belief in such a story.. it is the action, based upon belief in a story, that exerts a 'force' upon what is actually happening.. hence the appeal to 'let go' of belief, so that interaction with what is actually happening is authentic and it naturally resonates as a holistic and organic relationship between the separate volitional person and the collective whole with which that separate volitional person is inextricably united.. Be well.. |
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Post by topology on Jul 28, 2013 11:34:58 GMT -5
Greetings.. Hi Sound, I wouldn't call it denying the validity of personhood so much as seeing into the nature of personhood which has a tremendous impact on that personhood. Enigma talks about there being no separate volitional person, which is not to say that there is not a non-separate "volitional" appearance of a person. Growing up through childhood the mind tries to figure out who "I am" is. The child sees everyone else talking about their stories and is encouraged to buy into those stories and cultivate it's own story about itself. Soon that story is emotionally attached to and it becomes the vehicle through which the individual relates to their whole experience. While the story slowly evolves over time, too much change leads to emotional and existential turmoil, so threats to the story are defended against and often the best defense is a good offense. It is sobering to see how much people are engaged into story telling without realizing fundamentally that it is just a story. People get trapped in their stories and try to trap others in stories. Personhood is a story we tell. It is highly functional for making the world go round, but it can get highly dysfunctional as well when we attach to a particular story. Personhood is not being denied, that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater as it is a highly functional way of operating in the world. But its nature must be understood and we must realize that ultimately we are not the stories we tell if we want to find any real sense of peace, freedom, and effective functionality. The appeal to the story about 'appearance' is disingenuous, but a useful expedient for creating the desired illusion.. the claim that there only the 'appearance' of "a separate volitional person", has the same validity as saying the red stuff leaking out of the laceration on your body is only an 'appearance', that it's not 'real'.. both statements may or may not be true, but we interact with the actuality of both statements because they impose a 'force' upon what is actually happening.. regardless of stories about appearances or what may or may not be true, it is our 'relationship', what we actually do, relative to the 'forces' that affect our existence, shape our understandings.. it is possible to conjure infinite story-lines, and it is the intensity of belief in those stories that create the forces of cause and effect.. The 'story' can affect our existence, by virtue of someone acting on their belief in such a story.. it is the action, based upon belief in a story, that exerts a 'force' upon what is actually happening.. hence the appeal to 'let go' of belief, so that interaction with what is actually happening is authentic and it naturally resonates as a holistic and organic relationship between the separate volitional person and the collective whole with which that separate volitional person is inextricably united.. Be well.. And if it happened to appear that there was a rhino charging my way, I can guarantee you that it will appear that this body runs for cover or attempts to climb a tree. Do you live in fear of people viewing their experiences as temporary appearances? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2013 11:46:35 GMT -5
Greetings.. The appeal to the story about 'appearance' is disingenuous, but a useful expedient for creating the desired illusion.. the claim that there only the 'appearance' of "a separate volitional person", has the same validity as saying the red stuff leaking out of the laceration on your body is only an 'appearance', that it's not 'real'.. both statements may or may not be true, but we interact with the actuality of both statements because they impose a 'force' upon what is actually happening.. regardless of stories about appearances or what may or may not be true, it is our 'relationship', what we actually do, relative to the 'forces' that affect our existence, shape our understandings.. it is possible to conjure infinite story-lines, and it is the intensity of belief in those stories that create the forces of cause and effect.. The 'story' can affect our existence, by virtue of someone acting on their belief in such a story.. it is the action, based upon belief in a story, that exerts a 'force' upon what is actually happening.. hence the appeal to 'let go' of belief, so that interaction with what is actually happening is authentic and it naturally resonates as a holistic and organic relationship between the separate volitional person and the collective whole with which that separate volitional person is inextricably united.. Be well.. And if it happened to appear that there was a rhino charging my way, I can guarantee you that it will appear that this body runs for cover or attempts to climb a tree. Do you live in fear of people viewing their experiences as temporary appearances? Top's appearance runs with reckless abandon from the charging rhino... While Tzu's appearance runs from the charging rhino "hencing the appeal to 'let go' of belief, so that interaction with what is actually happening is authentic and it naturally resonates as a holistic and organic relationship between the separate volitional person and the collective whole with which that separate volitional person is inextricably united"... Which appearance is going to get trampled?... |
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Post by laughter on Jul 28, 2013 12:07:02 GMT -5
Greetings.. Hi Sound, I wouldn't call it denying the validity of personhood so much as seeing into the nature of personhood which has a tremendous impact on that personhood. Enigma talks about there being no separate volitional person, which is not to say that there is not a non-separate "volitional" appearance of a person. Growing up through childhood the mind tries to figure out who "I am" is. The child sees everyone else talking about their stories and is encouraged to buy into those stories and cultivate it's own story about itself. Soon that story is emotionally attached to and it becomes the vehicle through which the individual relates to their whole experience. While the story slowly evolves over time, too much change leads to emotional and existential turmoil, so threats to the story are defended against and often the best defense is a good offense. It is sobering to see how much people are engaged into story telling without realizing fundamentally that it is just a story. People get trapped in their stories and try to trap others in stories. Personhood is a story we tell. It is highly functional for making the world go round, but it can get highly dysfunctional as well when we attach to a particular story. Personhood is not being denied, that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater as it is a highly functional way of operating in the world. But its nature must be understood and we must realize that ultimately we are not the stories we tell if we want to find any real sense of peace, freedom, and effective functionality. The appeal to the story about 'appearance' is disingenuous, but a useful expedient for creating the desired illusion.. the claim that there only the 'appearance' of "a separate volitional person", has the same validity as saying the red stuff leaking out of the laceration on your body is only an 'appearance', that it's not 'real'.. both statements may or may not be true, but we interact with the actuality of both statements because they impose a 'force' upon what is actually happening.. regardless of stories about appearances or what may or may not be true, it is our 'relationship', what we actually do, relative to the 'forces' that affect our existence, shape our understandings.. it is possible to conjure infinite story-lines, and it is the intensity of belief in those stories that create the forces of cause and effect.. The 'story' can affect our existence, by virtue of someone acting on their belief in such a story.. it is the action, based upon belief in a story, that exerts a 'force' upon what is actually happening.. hence the appeal to 'let go' of belief, so that interaction with what is actually happening is authentic and it naturally resonates as a holistic and organic relationship between the separate volitional person and the collective whole with which that separate volitional person is inextricably united.. Be well.. My guess is that you're a veteran of at least one intellectual exploration on the nature of fear ... is it good? is it bad? what is and isn't fear? ... (yadda) ?Instead, put yourself, as best you can, back in that moment underneath the rapids. Instead of investigating this with thought, just observe what happens during the next situation encountered that moves in the direction toward that experience, regardless of how far away from that it might be. In those instants, something either get's out of the way or it doesn't. If there is still a question as to what this is after witnessing that, inquire as to who the questioner is, but don't use the thinker to do it. |
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 28, 2013 12:41:49 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. The appeal to the story about 'appearance' is disingenuous, but a useful expedient for creating the desired illusion.. the claim that there only the 'appearance' of "a separate volitional person", has the same validity as saying the red stuff leaking out of the laceration on your body is only an 'appearance', that it's not 'real'.. both statements may or may not be true, but we interact with the actuality of both statements because they impose a 'force' upon what is actually happening.. regardless of stories about appearances or what may or may not be true, it is our 'relationship', what we actually do, relative to the 'forces' that affect our existence, shape our understandings.. it is possible to conjure infinite story-lines, and it is the intensity of belief in those stories that create the forces of cause and effect.. The 'story' can affect our existence, by virtue of someone acting on their belief in such a story.. it is the action, based upon belief in a story, that exerts a 'force' upon what is actually happening.. hence the appeal to 'let go' of belief, so that interaction with what is actually happening is authentic and it naturally resonates as a holistic and organic relationship between the separate volitional person and the collective whole with which that separate volitional person is inextricably united.. Be well.. My guess is that you're a veteran of at least one intellectual exploration on the nature of fear ... is it good? is it bad? what is and isn't fear? ... (yadda) ?Instead, put yourself, as best you can, back in that moment underneath the rapids. Instead of investigating this with thought, just observe what happens during the next situation encountered that moves in the direction toward that experience, regardless of how far away from that it might be. In those instants, something either get's out of the way or it doesn't. If there is still a question as to what this is after witnessing that, inquire as to who the questioner is, but don't use the thinker to do it. Stop imagining that i haven't made that exploration.. you do this to create the illusion, for 'your' benefit, that you are the teacher.. "come down off the hilltop".. Be well.. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 28, 2013 12:45:53 GMT -5
Greetings.. My guess is that you're a veteran of at least one intellectual exploration on the nature of fear ... is it good? is it bad? what is and isn't fear? ... (yadda) ?Instead, put yourself, as best you can, back in that moment underneath the rapids. Instead of investigating this with thought, just observe what happens during the next situation encountered that moves in the direction toward that experience, regardless of how far away from that it might be. In those instants, something either get's out of the way or it doesn't. If there is still a question as to what this is after witnessing that, inquire as to who the questioner is, but don't use the thinker to do it. Stop imagining that i haven't made that exploration.. you do this to create the illusion, for 'your' benefit, that you are the teacher.. "come down off the hilltop".. Be well.. (** smiles, scratches balls, stands and walks up the stairs to Bill's parents basement in silence **) |
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Post by topology on Jul 28, 2013 13:19:32 GMT -5
Greetings.. Stop imagining that i haven't made that exploration.. you do this to create the illusion, for 'your' benefit, that you are the teacher.. "come down off the hilltop".. Be well.. (** smiles, scratches balls, stands and walks up the stairs to Bill's parents basement in silence **) And you're still living in your parent's basement!?!? You didn't put that in your Match.com profile. Get away from me, you lying cheating mindf.ucking parasite! |
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Post by topology on Jul 28, 2013 13:41:21 GMT -5
And if it happened to appear that there was a rhino charging my way, I can guarantee you that it will appear that this body runs for cover or attempts to climb a tree. Do you live in fear of people viewing their experiences as temporary appearances? Top's appearance runs with reckless abandon from the charging rhino... While Tzu's appearance runs from the charging rhino "hencing the appeal to 'let go' of belief, so that interaction with what is actually happening is authentic and it naturally resonates as a holistic and organic relationship between the separate volitional person and the collective whole with which that separate volitional person is inextricably united"... Which appearance is going to get trampled?... Yeah, I don't think Tzu is understanding that calling something an "appearance" is actually paying homage to the part-whole relationship. The Whole is always present, but it's face changes appearance from moment to moment as the parts re-arrange and come and go in the experience. Take everything you quoted Tzu saying and distill it into a single word. That word is "appearance". Knowing that something is just a surface appearance on the Whole doesn't change how one part interacts with another. It just means that after a Rhino charge and the danger passes, you're grinning your ass off while you wash your shorts in the stream. |
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 28, 2013 14:47:30 GMT -5
Greetings.. Top's appearance runs with reckless abandon from the charging rhino... While Tzu's appearance runs from the charging rhino "hencing the appeal to 'let go' of belief, so that interaction with what is actually happening is authentic and it naturally resonates as a holistic and organic relationship between the separate volitional person and the collective whole with which that separate volitional person is inextricably united"... Which appearance is going to get trampled?... Yeah, I don't think Tzu is understanding that calling something an "appearance" is actually paying homage to the part-whole relationship. The Whole is always present, but it's face changes appearance from moment to moment as the parts re-arrange and come and go in the experience. Take everything you quoted Tzu saying and distill it into a single word. That word is "appearance". Knowing that something is just a surface appearance on the Whole doesn't change how one part interacts with another. It just means that after a Rhino charge and the danger passes, you're grinning your ass off while you wash your shorts in the stream. Thinking is all you do, Top.. think and chatter about what you think.. stop.. no, just full stop.. let clarity soak in.. let the 'appearance' story go, it has no value other than the illusion is creates.. How often have you had to 'wash your shorts'? seriously, how often have you put it all on the line without knowing the outcome probabilities? how often have you risked it ALL for a 'grin'? Be well.. |
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Post by topology on Jul 28, 2013 15:16:07 GMT -5
Greetings.. Yeah, I don't think Tzu is understanding that calling something an "appearance" is actually paying homage to the part-whole relationship. The Whole is always present, but it's face changes appearance from moment to moment as the parts re-arrange and come and go in the experience. Take everything you quoted Tzu saying and distill it into a single word. That word is "appearance". Knowing that something is just a surface appearance on the Whole doesn't change how one part interacts with another. It just means that after a Rhino charge and the danger passes, you're grinning your ass off while you wash your shorts in the stream. Thinking is all you do, Top.. think and chatter about what you think.. stop.. no, just full stop.. let clarity soak in.. let the 'appearance' story go, it has no value other than the illusion is creates.. How often have you had to 'wash your shorts'? seriously, how often have you put it all on the line without knowing the outcome probabilities? how often have you risked it ALL for a 'grin'? Be well.. You're funny, Tzu. You wax on about parts and wholes, but when someone else does it, and acknowledges your position on it, you beat them with the "You're thinking too much" stick. Ishy is waiting to give you a golden shower, you shouldn't keep him long, it makes the spirits angry to wait. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2013 15:33:08 GMT -5
Ishy is waiting to give you a golden shower, you shouldn't keep him long, it makes the spirits angry to wait. you've got the golden shower metaphor all wrong .. the moral of the story is about standing too close to pedestals. ;-) |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2013 17:37:03 GMT -5
Ishy is waiting to give you a golden shower, you shouldn't keep him long, it makes the spirits angry to wait. you've got the golden shower metaphor all wrong .. the moral of the story is about standing too close to pedestals. ;-) Aye....and what a wonderfully direct lesson lol Ishtahota is very honest about not messing around hehehe |
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Post by laughter on Jul 28, 2013 20:02:17 GMT -5
(** smiles, scratches balls, stands and walks up the stairs to Bill's parents basement in silence **) And you're still living in your parent's basement!?!? You didn't put that in your Match.com profile. Get away from me, you lying cheating mindf.ucking parasite! (** adds a picture of top to scrapbook collage **) |
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Post by Ishtahota on Jul 28, 2013 20:23:16 GMT -5
Greetings.. Thinking is all you do, Top.. think and chatter about what you think.. stop.. no, just full stop.. let clarity soak in.. let the 'appearance' story go, it has no value other than the illusion is creates.. How often have you had to 'wash your shorts'? seriously, how often have you put it all on the line without knowing the outcome probabilities? how often have you risked it ALL for a 'grin'? Be well.. You're funny, Tzu. You wax on about parts and wholes, but when someone else does it, and acknowledges your position on it, you beat them with the "You're thinking too much" stick. Ishy is waiting to give you a golden shower, you shouldn't keep him long, it makes the spirits angry to wait. The spirits that I work with have all gone into the light and come back to work with us. They are for the most part impersonal and they do not get angry at us. They do not have the problems with the ego like we do because it drops away when we cross over into the light. |
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