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Post by Reefs on Jul 20, 2013 7:55:53 GMT -5
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Post by zendancer on Jul 20, 2013 11:28:01 GMT -5
Nice quote. Self honesty, sincerity, earnestness, a recognition that mind is incapable of resolving existential questions, a recognition that mind deals only with abstractions, a willingness to shift attention away from thoughts until mind loses its dominance, and persistence are the basic requirements for penetrating all cognitive illusions.
"I think the world should be different than it is." *shift* "I would be happy if I only had____________." *shift* "He is not a good person." *shift* "I wonder what they think of me?" *shift* "I wonder if I'm making progress on the path to enlightenment?" *shift* "I think I've attained something important." *shift* "This is the most beautiful sunset I've ever seen!" *shift* "I wonder what would have happened if I had made the other choice?" *shift* "Those people are bad." *shift* "Those people are wonderful." *shift* "America is a great country." *shift* "America is a lousy country." *shift* "If I could have a really big experience of cosmic consciousness, I could become enlightened." *shift* "I should work at becoming a better person." *shift* "I'm a sinner." *shift* "I'm a saint." *shift* "I wonder what Jesus would have done?" *shift* "She hurt my feelings." *shift* "I am looking at a tree." *shift* "I need to stop thinking so much." *shift* "That man is better looking than the man standing beside him." *shift* "I'm improving every day." *shift* "I'm a failure." *shift* "I ought to spend more time meditating." *shift* "Life isn't fair." *shift* "If only ___________." *shift* "I should be doing something other than what I'm doing." *shift* "If I were doing ___________, I'd be happy." *shift* "I am John Doe." "shift" "I am not John Doe." *shift* "He is richer than I am." *shift* "I have too many fears." *shift* "I am unworthy." *shift* "Everything happens for a reason." *shift* "Life is meaningless." *shift* Etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2013 11:56:59 GMT -5
Niz calls it earnestness but it's really anything that causes the release of the attention from reason, for even a single moment. It can take many lifetimes before that happens and there is absolutely nothing that can be done to make it happen. Earnestness is simply encouraging reason to remember that we are perceivers...
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Post by laughter on Jul 20, 2013 12:41:55 GMT -5
Niz calls it earnestness but it's really anything that causes the release of the attention from reason, for even a single moment. It can take many lifetimes before that happens and there is absolutely nothing that can be done to make it happen. Earnestness is simply encouraging reason to remember that we are perceivers...I'd say rather, it is a willingness to not shrink from the noticing that we have mistaken reason for perception.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2013 15:08:28 GMT -5
Niz calls it earnestness but it's really anything that causes the release of the attention from reason, for even a single moment. It can take many lifetimes before that happens and there is absolutely nothing that can be done to make it happen. Earnestness is simply encouraging reason to remember that we are perceivers...I'd say rather, it is a willingness to not shrink from the noticing that we have mistaken reason for perception. Yeah, it's one of those poison pill possibilities that the reason can take hold of for it's own unwitting demise... The tricky part is what 'is' the "willingness to not shrink from the noticing that we have mistaken reason for perception". The perceiver just 'IS', it's neither a willing or non willing doer... Nor are willing or non willing perceptions a doer, but rather the perceptions are an effect of inter-related causes. There is no doer in the battle to free the attention from reason, so it will happen when it happens...
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Post by laughter on Jul 20, 2013 19:11:20 GMT -5
I'd say rather, it is a willingness to not shrink from the noticing that we have mistaken reason for perception. Yeah, it's one of those poison pill possibilities that the reason can take hold of for it's own unwitting demise... The tricky part is what 'is' the "willingness to not shrink from the noticing that we have mistaken reason for perception". The perceiver just 'IS', it's neither a willing or non willing doer... Nor are willing or non willing perceptions a doer, but rather the perceptions are an effect of inter-related causes. There is no doer in the battle to free the attention from reason, so it will happen when it happens... I'd say that there's no effort to the noticing or predicting what will or won't be noticed or when, but that it is the person or a remnant of that pattern that embodies the willingness to be honest about what was noticed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2013 19:34:14 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2013 20:09:22 GMT -5
Yeah, it's one of those poison pill possibilities that the reason can take hold of for it's own unwitting demise... The tricky part is what 'is' the "willingness to not shrink from the noticing that we have mistaken reason for perception". The perceiver just 'IS', it's neither a willing or non willing doer... Nor are willing or non willing perceptions a doer, but rather the perceptions are an effect of inter-related causes. There is no doer in the battle to free the attention from reason, so it will happen when it happens... I'd say that there's no effort to the noticing or predicting what will or won't be noticed or when, but that it is the person or a remnant of that pattern that embodies the willingness to be honest about what was noticed. Yes, it's a very interesting perception, but from the perspective of the perceiver, it's still a perception, albeit a higher reasoning one, and one that maintains it's hold on the attention.
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Post by esponja on Jul 21, 2013 8:16:03 GMT -5
Nice quote. Self honesty, sincerity, earnestness, a recognition that mind is incapable of resolving existential questions, a recognition that mind deals only with abstractions, a willingness to shift attention away from thoughts until mind loses its dominance, and persistence are the basic requirements for penetrating all cognitive illusions. "I think the world should be different than it is." *shift* "I would be happy if I only had____________." *shift* "He is not a good person." *shift* "I wonder what they think of me?" *shift* "I wonder if I'm making progress on the path to enlightenment?" *shift* "I think I've attained something important." *shift* "This is the most beautiful sunset I've ever seen!" *shift* "I wonder what would have happened if I had made the other choice?" *shift* "Those people are bad." *shift* "Those people are wonderful." *shift* "America is a great country." *shift* "America is a lousy country." *shift* "If I could have a really big experience of cosmic consciousness, I could become enlightened." *shift* "I should work at becoming a better person." *shift* "I'm a sinner." *shift* "I'm a saint." *shift* "I wonder what Jesus would have done?" *shift* "She hurt my feelings." *shift* "I am looking at a tree." *shift* "I need to stop thinking so much." *shift* "That man is better looking than the man standing beside him." *shift* "I'm improving every day." *shift* "I'm a failure." *shift* "I ought to spend more time meditating." *shift* "Life isn't fair." *shift* "If only ___________." *shift* "I should be doing something other than what I'm doing." *shift* "If I were doing ___________, I'd be happy." *shift* "I am John Doe." "shift" "I am not John Doe." *shift* "He is richer than I am." *shift* "I have too many fears." *shift* "I am unworthy." *shift* "Everything happens for a reason." *shift* "Life is meaningless." *shift* Etc. Hello again all! Not too sure how to even post on this new (ish) forum these days, bare with me. ZD, was wondering if you could help with the 'shift' part? Do you shift to the actual? I.e mind deals with ideas and before you know it you're off in lalaloopseyland, do you mean then to catch the thought and focus on what's happening? Thanks
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 21, 2013 8:36:38 GMT -5
Greetings.. This is another story crafted in the mind of a person/identity, imagined from what that person chooses to believe 'about' their existence.. 'mind' is not separate from 'that' which 'is', there is no freedom 'from' mind.. people either struggle with mind, or understand its function and use it wisely.. "Only earnestness"?.. No, that's just poor story-telling, "only" is a fixed limitation.. people without their own sense of what 'is', will attach to the stories and illusions imagined by others.. this 'chapter and verse' study and worship of someone's else s beliefs, has the same flavor and effect as any other religion, it robs the experiencer of their own authenticity.. Be well..
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Post by zendancer on Jul 21, 2013 10:25:28 GMT -5
Nice quote. Self honesty, sincerity, earnestness, a recognition that mind is incapable of resolving existential questions, a recognition that mind deals only with abstractions, a willingness to shift attention away from thoughts until mind loses its dominance, and persistence are the basic requirements for penetrating all cognitive illusions. "I think the world should be different than it is." *shift* "I would be happy if I only had____________." *shift* "He is not a good person." *shift* "I wonder what they think of me?" *shift* "I wonder if I'm making progress on the path to enlightenment?" *shift* "I think I've attained something important." *shift* "This is the most beautiful sunset I've ever seen!" *shift* "I wonder what would have happened if I had made the other choice?" *shift* "Those people are bad." *shift* "Those people are wonderful." *shift* "America is a great country." *shift* "America is a lousy country." *shift* "If I could have a really big experience of cosmic consciousness, I could become enlightened." *shift* "I should work at becoming a better person." *shift* "I'm a sinner." *shift* "I'm a saint." *shift* "I wonder what Jesus would have done?" *shift* "She hurt my feelings." *shift* "I am looking at a tree." *shift* "I need to stop thinking so much." *shift* "That man is better looking than the man standing beside him." *shift* "I'm improving every day." *shift* "I'm a failure." *shift* "I ought to spend more time meditating." *shift* "Life isn't fair." *shift* "If only ___________." *shift* "I should be doing something other than what I'm doing." *shift* "If I were doing ___________, I'd be happy." *shift* "I am John Doe." "shift" "I am not John Doe." *shift* "He is richer than I am." *shift* "I have too many fears." *shift* "I am unworthy." *shift* "Everything happens for a reason." *shift* "Life is meaningless." *shift* Etc. Hello again all! Not too sure how to even post on this new (ish) forum these days, bare with me. ZD, was wondering if you could help with the 'shift' part? Do you shift to the actual? I.e mind deals with ideas and before you know it you're off in lalaloopseyland, do you mean then to catch the thought and focus on what's happening? Thanks Hi Esponja: Yes. The statements I listed are typical thoughts that adults entertain. One thought leads to another, and, as you suggest, the mind wanders off into lalaloopsey land. If it is seen that thoughts psychologically separate the thinker from THIS, then whenever various thoughts are recognized, it is like a dharma bell. "Aha, time to shift attention away from this thought to what can be seen, heard, felt, etc." After I started meditating, I soon realized that I had spent years and years living in my head and had ceased looking at the world around me. I began taking walks down country roads while making an effort to look at the world non-conceptually. It was very frustrating at that time because thoughts were almost incessant, and it was difficult to hold attention on direct sensory perception for more than a second or two. With persistence, however, this gradually changed, and the mind's talkativeness and endless commentary diminished. Today the mind is primarily silent, compared to the past, and it functions in the background, with virtually no commentary. At times, the body sits and watches clouds without a single thought occurring for long periods of time. This is neither good nor bad; it is simply what has happened as a result of shifting attention away from thoughts over a long period of time. It is not special. The first time I saw clearly how thoughts keep us separated from the truth of "what is" occurred one day while pouring concrete. At that time I harbored a powerful fantasy about running off to a mountaintop or wilderness area where I could meditate in peace and get enlightened. I did not realize that this fantasy was a fantasy, and it arose almost daily. I'd be doing some sort of construction work, and a thought would appear, like, "Shoot, if I could just go off into the wilderness and leave this meaningless construction work behind for a while, I could have a big enlightenment experience and become a Buddha. All I need is some serious silence." Ha ha. It seems very funny now, but at the time thoughts like this were causing me a lot of frustration and discontent. One day I was pouring concrete with some fellow workers. As we rested for a moment in the shade of a concrete truck, that same fantasy started to get cranked up. I thought, "Dam*, if I didn't have to be pouring concrete, then I could be......." That's as far as the thought proceeded. I suddenly saw that thought as a thought, only, and I saw how the thought separated me from the truth of "what is." I then asked myself a deceptively simply question, "What must I be doing this moment? Not in the future, but now?" When this question was asked, it was obvious that I had to be pouring concrete. I then realized that in the past I had been continually jerked around by a crazy fantasy, and oblivious to the truth. From that point on, I began using that question, "What must I be doing this moment?" to cut off fantasies about the future before they could get up to speed, so to speak. It was like recognizing a bad habit and putting a stop to it. All of us have thoughts that, if followed blindly, will keep us separated from the truth of who we are and what we have to be doing moment by moment. The list I included above only includes a tiny sampling of the silly thoughts that keep most of us entranced and lost in our heads. The other day I heard about a super-wealthy fellow who made this statement to one of my relatives, "Any time I walk into a room, I want to know that I'm the wealthiest person there. If I meet anyone who I think has more money than I do, it makes me feel competitive and inferior." What an incredibly sad statement! On a less incredible scale, a great many people continually measure themselves in comparison to other people. "Is she prettier than I am?" "Is he more successful in his work than I am?" "Does he own a better car than I do?" "Have I achieved as much as they have?" A high school reunion is a classic place where this sort of comparison-thinking occurs, and I have heard some amazing comments at past class reunions. It's as if people are still competing against each another fifty years later. As attention is shifted from thoughts to direct sensory perception, the truth of one's being becomes more and more obvious, but the key is to catch old habitual thought-trains early and de-rail them, so to speak. Some people think extremely negative thoughts about themselves, and they stay depressed because of their thoughts. "I'm too fat." "I'm not successful enough." "I'll always be poor." "I'm just an unlucky person." These kinds of thoughts are why Byron Katie often asks people, "How would you feel without that thought?" If you look at the above list of thoughts, you may recognize one or two that commonly arise in your mind. Memorize those thoughts, and the next time one of them occurs, recognize it and use it like a dharma bell--a reminder to shift attention to what can be seen, heard, or felt. If you are familiar with universal sound--the background ringing in the ears--you might experiment with shifting attention to that. If not, just look around or shift attention to the breathing process. Take several deep breaths, and feel the air moving into and out of the body. By continually shifting attention away from negative thoughts, fantasies, thoughts of comparison or judgment, the mind gradually loses its dominance, and eventually freedom from thought can occur. Who we are is THIS, infinite and unimaginable, but we usually spend our lives thinking that we are persons-- continually jerked around by endless self-centered thoughts. Bottom line? Shift! *smile*
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Post by laughter on Jul 21, 2013 10:37:08 GMT -5
I'd say that there's no effort to the noticing or predicting what will or won't be noticed or when, but that it is the person or a remnant of that pattern that embodies the willingness to be honest about what was noticed. Yes, it's a very interesting perception, but from the perspective of the perceiver, it's still a perception, albeit a higher reasoning one, and one that maintains it's hold on the attention. (** splash! **)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 11:49:11 GMT -5
Yes, it's a very interesting perception, but from the perspective of the perceiver, it's still a perception, albeit a higher reasoning one, and one that maintains it's hold on the attention. (** splash! **) Yes....(** splash! **) is also perceived... Perception is always out in front of us, including the perception that perception is always out in front of us...
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Post by onehandclapping on Jul 21, 2013 15:45:00 GMT -5
Hello again all! Not too sure how to even post on this new (ish) forum these days, bare with me. ZD, was wondering if you could help with the 'shift' part? Do you shift to the actual? I.e mind deals with ideas and before you know it you're off in lalaloopseyland, do you mean then to catch the thought and focus on what's happening? Thanks Hi Esponja: Yes. The statements I listed are typical thoughts that adults entertain. One thought leads to another, and, as you suggest, the body/mind wanders off into lalaloopsey land. If it is seen that thoughts psychologically separate the thinker from THIS, then whenever various thoughts are recognized, it is like a dharma bell. "Aha, time to shift attention away from this thought to what can be seen, heard, felt, etc." After I started meditating, I soon realized that I had spent years and years living in my head and had ceased looking at the world around me. I began taking walks down country roads while making an effort to look at the world non-conceptually. It was very frustrating at that time because thoughts were almost incessant, and it was difficult to hold attention on direct sensory perception for more than a second or two. With persistence, however, this gradually changed, and the mind's talkativeness and endless commentary diminished. Today the mind is primarily silent, compared to the past, and it functions in the background, with virtually no commentary. At times, the body sits and watches clouds without a single thought occurring for long periods of time. This is neither good nor bad; it is simply what has happened as a result of shifting attention away from thoughts over a long period of time. It is not special. The first time I saw clearly how thoughts keep us separated from the truth of "what is" occurred one day while pouring concrete. At that time I harbored a powerful fantasy about running off to a mountaintop or wilderness area where I could meditate in peace and get enlightened. I did not realize that this fantasy was a fantasy, and it arose almost daily. I'd be doing some sort of construction work, and a thought would appear, like, "Shoot, if I could just go off into the wilderness and leave this meaningless construction work behind for a while, I could have a big enlightenment experience and become a Buddha. All I need is some serious silence." Ha ha. It seems very funny now, but at the time thoughts like this were causing me a lot of frustration and discontent. One day I was pouring concrete with some fellow workers. As we rested for a moment in the shade of a concrete truck, that same fantasy started to get cranked up. I thought, "Dam*, if I didn't have to be pouring concrete, then I could be......." That's as far as the thought proceeded. I suddenly saw that thought as a thought, only, and I saw how the thought separated me from the truth of "what is." I then asked myself a deceptively simply question, "What must I be doing this moment? Not in the future, but now?" When this question was asked, it was obvious that I had to be pouring concrete. I then realized that in the past I had been continually jerked around by a crazy fantasy, and oblivious to the truth. From that point on, I began using that question, "What must I be doing this moment?" to cut off fantasies about the future before they could get up to speed, so to speak. It was like recognizing a bad habit and putting a stop to it. All of us have thoughts that, if followed blindly, will keep us separated from the truth of who we are and what we have to be doing moment by moment. The list I included above only includes a tiny sampling of the silly thoughts that keep most of us entranced and lost in our heads. The other day I heard about a super-wealthy fellow who made this statement to one of my relatives, "Any time I walk into a room, I want to know that I'm the wealthiest person there. If I meet anyone who I think has more money than I do, it makes me feel competitive and inferior." What an incredibly sad statement! On a less incredible scale, a great many people continually measure themselves in comparison to other people. "Is she prettier than I am?" "Is he more successful in his work than I am?" "Does he own a better car than I do?" "Have I achieved as much as they have?" A high school reunion is a classic place where this sort of comparison-thinking occurs, and I have heard some amazing comments at past class reunions. It's as if people are still competing against each another fifty years later. As attention is shifted from thoughts to direct sensory perception, the truth of one's being becomes more and more obvious, but the key is to catch old habitual thought-trains early and de-rail them, so to speak. Some people think extremely negative thoughts about themselves, and they stay depressed because of their thoughts. "I'm too fat." "I'm not successful enough." "I'll always be poor." "I'm just an unlucky person." These kinds of thoughts are why Byron Katie often asks people, "How would you feel without that thought?" If you look at the above list of thoughts, you may recognize one or two that commonly arise in your mind. Memorize those thoughts, and the next time one of them occurs, recognize it and use it like a dharma bell--a reminder to shift attention to what can be seen, heard, or felt. If you are familiar with universal sound--the background ringing in the ears--you might experiment with shifting attention to that. If not, just look around or shift attention to the breathing process. Take several deep breaths, and feel the air moving into and out of the body. By continually shifting attention away from negative thoughts, fantasies, thoughts of comparison or judgment, the mind gradually loses its dominance, and eventually freedom from thought can occur. Who we are is THIS, infinite and unimaginable, but we usually spend our lives thinking that we are persons-- continually jerked around by endless self-centered thoughts. Bottom line? Shift! *smile* *Shift* HAHAHA! My ears ring all the time...... here I was just annoyed when I could hear it....... *Shift* HAHA!! This *shift* thing is gonna lead to some entertaining conversations I got a feeling. But I'm thinking about getting my abs in shape so I guess that's a good thing...... *shift*... hahaha.
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Post by onehandclapping on Jul 21, 2013 15:47:41 GMT -5
Greetings.. This is another story crafted in the mind of a person/identity, imagined from what that person chooses to believe 'about' their existence.. 'mind' is not separate from 'that' which 'is', there is no freedom 'from' mind.. people either struggle with mind, or understand its function and use it wisely.. "Only earnestness"?.. No, that's just poor story-telling, "only" is a fixed limitation.. people without their own sense of what 'is', will attach to the stories and illusions imagined by others.. this 'chapter and verse' study and worship of someone's else s beliefs, has the same flavor and effect as any other religion, it robs the experiencer of their own authenticity.. Be well.. We bow down to you great teacher of this TZU. You are far better a teacher than Niz. Thank you so much for yo...ur in.....si....g....h....t......... Sorry started drowning in sarcasm.....
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