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Post by tzujanli on Jul 22, 2013 11:18:10 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. At least the disciples are consistent, avoid the message/kill the messenger.. there's no substance there, just your disapproval of the messenger and your fear of the message.. Be well.. To the music of killing me softly by the Fugees o/~
Speaking my message from clarity,
Telling you how it actually is,
Martyr me softly with your words,
Martyr me softly with your words,
Hoping you learn how to see,
Martyr me softly with your words.
*slaps OHC*
Quit trying to crucify Tzu of Ark, and take his message, pregnant dog. How does it 'feel', Top.. are you in touch with your contempt? How does it 'feel', Top.. retreating from clarity with mocking ridicule? Be well.. |
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Post by topology on Jul 22, 2013 11:33:32 GMT -5
Greetings.. o/~ To the music of killing me softly by the Fugees o/~
Speaking my message from clarity,
Telling you how it actually is,
Martyr me softly with your words,
Martyr me softly with your words,
Hoping you learn how to see,
Martyr me softly with your words.
*slaps OHC*
Quit trying to crucify Tzu of Ark, and take his message, pregnant dog. How does it 'feel', Top.. are you in touch with your contempt? How does it 'feel', Top.. retreating from clarity with mocking ridicule? Be well..  |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 22, 2013 11:35:36 GMT -5
Esponja: THIS does whatever It does, so It manifests differently through different people. I'm generally pointing toward a way of escaping the dominance of mind. Thinking that one should always be aware of what is happening in the present moment is just another idealistic thought. What I'm saying is that if you spend MOST of your time thinking, your thoughts will usually add a layer of extra trouble on top of whatever other troubles THIS presents. As Jesus said, "Each day has troubles enough of its own." Ha ha.
If you're in pain, you would obviously like for it to go away, but thinking that it SHOULDN"T be happening is a kind of psychological resistance to "what is."
FWIW, some sages have claimed that if the mind remains quiescent for a long period of time, dreams eventually stop arising. Seng 'Stan, for example, wrote, "If the eye never sleeps, all dreams will naturally cease." I assume that this is what he was referring to, but I have no direct experience of that. I do lots of thinking about lots of stuff, so I'm not expecting dreams to stop anytime soon. Ha ha.
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Post by Beingist on Jul 22, 2013 11:43:53 GMT -5
Greetings.. How does it 'feel', Top.. are you in touch with your contempt? How does it 'feel', Top.. retreating from clarity with mocking ridicule? Be well.. |
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Post by serpentqueen on Jul 22, 2013 14:57:43 GMT -5
Esponja: THIS does whatever It does, so It manifests differently through different people. I'm generally pointing toward a way of escaping the dominance of mind. Thinking that one should always be aware of what is happening in the present moment is just another idealistic thought. What I'm saying is that if you spend MOST of your time thinking, your thoughts will usually add a layer of extra trouble on top of whatever other troubles THIS presents. As Jesus said, "Each day has troubles enough of its own." Ha ha. If you're in pain, you would obviously like for it to go away, but thinking that it SHOULDN"T be happening is a kind of psychological resistance to "what is." FWIW, some sages have claimed that if the mind remains quiescent for a long period of time, dreams eventually stop arising. Seng 'Stan, for example, wrote, "If the eye never sleeps, all dreams will naturally cease." I assume that this is what he was referring to, but I have no direct experience of that. I do lots of thinking about lots of stuff, so I'm not expecting dreams to stop anytime soon. Ha ha. Do you have a link for that? I rarely dream anymore, haven't for years. But I wouldn't exactly say I have a quiet mind. Ha. Quieter, yes. The dreams stopped when I started treating my waking state as if it was just a dream, analyzing whatever appeared as if it were a dream symbol. Anyway, I'd be curious for a link, so I could see overall context. Okay a quick google and I found this: www.osho.com/online-library-dreaming-causeless-mind-0b90ca53-66e.aspx |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2013 15:12:59 GMT -5
Esponja: THIS does whatever It does, so It manifests differently through different people. I'm generally pointing toward a way of escaping the dominance of mind. Thinking that one should always be aware of what is happening in the present moment is just another idealistic thought. What I'm saying is that if you spend MOST of your time thinking, your thoughts will usually add a layer of extra trouble on top of whatever other troubles THIS presents. As Jesus said, "Each day has troubles enough of its own." Ha ha. If you're in pain, you would obviously like for it to go away, but thinking that it SHOULDN"T be happening is a kind of psychological resistance to "what is." FWIW, some sages have claimed that if the mind remains quiescent for a long period of time, dreams eventually stop arising. Seng 'Stan, for example, wrote, "If the eye never sleeps, all dreams will naturally cease." I assume that this is what he was referring to, but I have no direct experience of that. I do lots of thinking about lots of stuff, so I'm not expecting dreams to stop anytime soon. Ha ha. Do you have a link for that? I rarely dream anymore, haven't for years. But I wouldn't exactly say I have a quiet mind. Ha. Quieter, yes. The dreams stopped when I started treating my waking state as if it was just a dream, analyzing whatever appeared as if it were a dream symbol. Anyway, I'd be curious for a link, so I could see overall context. My perspective of dreaming has shifted of late... Seems like Samadhi is wakefulness, and that the sleeping dream is a lesser decent into "dream", and that waking life is a further decent into a dream slumber, wherein the "waking" dream of what appears to be everyday life, is just the dream of self become much more visceral than the sleeping dream....waking life is really just a kind of going further into the rabbit hole pf dreaming than the sleeping dream, that is less visceral, or "real" feeling than the waking dream i.e., the "waking dream" is a kind of "going deeper" into the illusion and is a participating in dreaming more thorough way than in "sleeping dreams". One might say that Absolute Samadhi is absolute wakefulness....Relative Samadhi is being awake in the Dream....sleeping dreams are a less engaged absorption in the dream....and waking life is a complete absorption or engagement in the dream. |
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 22, 2013 15:17:27 GMT -5
Greetings.. Do you have a link for that? I rarely dream anymore, haven't for years. But I wouldn't exactly say I have a quiet mind. Ha. Quieter, yes. The dreams stopped when I started treating my waking state as if it was just a dream, analyzing whatever appeared as if it were a dream symbol. Anyway, I'd be curious for a link, so I could see overall context. My perspective of dreaming has shifted of late... Seems like Samadhi is wakefulness, and that the sleeping dream is a lesser decent into "dream", and that waking life is a further decent into a dream slumber, wherein the "waking" dream of what appears to be everyday life, is just the dream of self become much more visceral than the sleeping dream....waking life is really just a kind of going further into the rabbit hole pf dreaming than the sleeping dream, that is less visceral, or "real" feeling than the waking dream i.e., the "waking dream" is a kind of "going deeper" into the illusion and is a participating in dreaming more thorough way than in "sleeping dreams". One might say that Absolute Samadhi is absolute wakefulness....Relative Samadhi is being awake in the Dream....sleeping dreams are a less engaged absorption in the dream....and waking life is a complete absorption or engagement in the dream. Who is it that's having the dreams? Why do the dreams not match? Be well.. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 22, 2013 15:32:30 GMT -5
Esponja: THIS does whatever It does, so It manifests differently through different people. I'm generally pointing toward a way of escaping the dominance of mind. Thinking that one should always be aware of what is happening in the present moment is just another idealistic thought. What I'm saying is that if you spend MOST of your time thinking, your thoughts will usually add a layer of extra trouble on top of whatever other troubles THIS presents. As Jesus said, "Each day has troubles enough of its own." Ha ha. If you're in pain, you would obviously like for it to go away, but thinking that it SHOULDN"T be happening is a kind of psychological resistance to "what is." FWIW, some sages have claimed that if the mind remains quiescent for a long period of time, dreams eventually stop arising. Seng 'Stan, for example, wrote, "If the eye never sleeps, all dreams will naturally cease." I assume that this is what he was referring to, but I have no direct experience of that. I do lots of thinking about lots of stuff, so I'm not expecting dreams to stop anytime soon. Ha ha. Do you have a link for that? I rarely dream anymore, haven't for years. But I wouldn't exactly say I have a quiet mind. Ha. Quieter, yes. The dreams stopped when I started treating my waking state as if it was just a dream, analyzing whatever appeared as if it were a dream symbol. Anyway, I'd be curious for a link, so I could see overall context. Okay a quick google and I found this: www.osho.com/online-library-dreaming-causeless-mind-0b90ca53-66e.aspxSQ: The best translation of the hsin hsin ming (Verses on the Faith Mind), by Sengstan, that I've ever read is by Richard B. Clarke. Dharmacrafts used to send out a copy of his translation with every order from their catalog. The particular stanza that contains the quote in question goes: ......If the eye never sleeps, all dreams will naturally cease. If the mind makes no discriminations, the ten thousand things are as they are, of single essence. To understand the mystery of this One-essence it to be released from all entanglements. When all things are seen equally the timeless Self-essence is reached. No comparisons or analogies are possible in this causeless, relationless state..... |
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Post by topology on Jul 22, 2013 15:39:18 GMT -5
Esponja: THIS does whatever It does, so It manifests differently through different people. I'm generally pointing toward a way of escaping the dominance of mind. Thinking that one should always be aware of what is happening in the present moment is just another idealistic thought. What I'm saying is that if you spend MOST of your time thinking, your thoughts will usually add a layer of extra trouble on top of whatever other troubles THIS presents. As Jesus said, "Each day has troubles enough of its own." Ha ha. If you're in pain, you would obviously like for it to go away, but thinking that it SHOULDN"T be happening is a kind of psychological resistance to "what is." FWIW, some sages have claimed that if the mind remains quiescent for a long period of time, dreams eventually stop arising. Seng 'Stan, for example, wrote, "If the eye never sleeps, all dreams will naturally cease." I assume that this is what he was referring to, but I have no direct experience of that. I do lots of thinking about lots of stuff, so I'm not expecting dreams to stop anytime soon. Ha ha. Do you have a link for that? I rarely dream anymore, haven't for years. But I wouldn't exactly say I have a quiet mind. Ha. Quieter, yes. The dreams stopped when I started treating my waking state as if it was just a dream, analyzing whatever appeared as if it were a dream symbol. Anyway, I'd be curious for a link, so I could see overall context. Okay a quick google and I found this: www.osho.com/online-library-dreaming-causeless-mind-0b90ca53-66e.aspxIf you start processing the sub-conscious consciously, there's no need to process the sub-conscious through dreaming. I doubt dreams have stopped completely. We tend not to remember things which are relatively meaningless to us. |
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Post by serpentqueen on Jul 22, 2013 15:40:17 GMT -5
Do you have a link for that? I rarely dream anymore, haven't for years. But I wouldn't exactly say I have a quiet mind. Ha. Quieter, yes. The dreams stopped when I started treating my waking state as if it was just a dream, analyzing whatever appeared as if it were a dream symbol. Anyway, I'd be curious for a link, so I could see overall context. Okay a quick google and I found this: www.osho.com/online-library-dreaming-causeless-mind-0b90ca53-66e.aspxSQ: The best translation of the hsin hsin ming (Verses on the Faith Mind), by Sengstan, that I've ever read is by Richard B. Clarke. Dharmacrafts used to send out a copy of his translation with every order from their catalog. The particular stanza that contains the quote in question goes: ......If the eye never sleeps, all dreams will naturally cease. If the mind makes no discriminations, the ten thousand things are as they are, of single essence. To understand the mystery of this One-essence it to be released from all entanglements. When all things are seen equally the timeless Self-essence is reached. No comparisons or analogies are possible in this causeless, relationless state..... Awesome, thank you! I just got done reading the whole thing, which I found here: www.age-of-the-sage.org/buddhism/third_patriarch_zen.htmlI gather it doesn't literally mean, you stop dreaming in your sleep.... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2013 15:51:11 GMT -5
Greetings.. My perspective of dreaming has shifted of late... Seems like Samadhi is wakefulness, and that the sleeping dream is a lesser decent into "dream", and that waking life is a further decent into a dream slumber, wherein the "waking" dream of what appears to be everyday life, is just the dream of self become much more visceral than the sleeping dream....waking life is really just a kind of going further into the rabbit hole pf dreaming than the sleeping dream, that is less visceral, or "real" feeling than the waking dream i.e., the "waking dream" is a kind of "going deeper" into the illusion and is a participating in dreaming more thorough way than in "sleeping dreams". One might say that Absolute Samadhi is absolute wakefulness....Relative Samadhi is being awake in the Dream....sleeping dreams are a less engaged absorption in the dream....and waking life is a complete absorption or engagement in the dream. Who is it that's having the dreams? Why do the dreams not match? Be well.. To the first part: The dreamer is itself a dream....a dream of a dreamer To the second part, I'm not sure what you mean by "match", but it seems that what distinguishes them is that in the waking dream we have moved further into absorption and engagement of the dream, in sleeping dreams, less so. Have you noticed that in sleeping dreams, that there is ALWAYS a subjective quality, in that you are observing yourself in a dream...whatever personality or identity that you have in a sleeping dream, that identity, is observed just as the occurrences and environment of the sleeping dream are observed....in the waking dream, very often we are so absorbed in the dream of self and what is occurring that there is no more subjectiveness...often, in the waking dream, there is no seeing of oneself and one's environment as a kind of picture show of self and environment that we experience in the sleeping dream. What we call "waking life" seems to be a kind of moving further into the dream of self and experience, a deeper immersion into the dream, where the dream seems more "real". |
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Post by onehandclapping on Jul 22, 2013 16:04:54 GMT -5
Greetings.. At least the disciples are consistent, avoid the message/kill the messenger.. there's no substance there, just your disapproval of the messenger and your fear of the message.. Be well.. To the music of killing me softly by the Fugees o/~
Speaking my message from clarity,
Telling you how it actually is,
Martyr me softly with your words,
Martyr me softly with your words,
Hoping you learn how to see,
Martyr me softly with your words.
*slaps OHC*
Quit trying to crucify Tzu of Ark, and take his message, pregnant dog. HAHAHAHA!!! Damn you and your superior writing abilities! I need to hire you to do my next album. Slap gladly received.  |
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Post by tzujanli on Jul 22, 2013 16:17:41 GMT -5
Greetings.. Greetings.. Who is it that's having the dreams? Why do the dreams not match? Be well.. To the first part: The dreamer is itself a dream....a dream of a dreamer To the second part, I'm not sure what you mean by "match", but it seems that what distinguishes them is that in the waking dream we have moved further into absorption and engagement of the dream, in sleeping dreams, less so. Have you noticed that in sleeping dreams, that there is ALWAYS a subjective quality, in that you are observing yourself in a dream...whatever personality or identity that you have in a sleeping dream, that identity, is observed just as the occurrences and environment of the sleeping dream are observed....in the waking dream, very often we are so absorbed in the dream of self and what is occurring that there is no more subjectiveness...often, in the waking dream, there is no seeing of oneself and one's environment as a kind of picture show of self and environment that we experience in the sleeping dream. What we call "waking life" seems to be a kind of moving further into the dream of self and experience, a deeper immersion into the dream, where the dream seems more "real". Hi Steve: How much of what you've posted is evident to the still mind? More clearly, i cannot find examples of your theories in simply living Life as it 'is'.. in order for your theories to 'work', there is a requirement of belief in your theories of 'dreams', but.. i have no such belief, yet the same Life experience is unfolding for me and it is for you.. the difference is what we 'think' about the Life experiences.. Anyway, thanks for answering the questions.. Be well.. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2013 16:23:15 GMT -5
Greetings.. To the first part: The dreamer is itself a dream....a dream of a dreamer To the second part, I'm not sure what you mean by "match", but it seems that what distinguishes them is that in the waking dream we have moved further into absorption and engagement of the dream, in sleeping dreams, less so. Have you noticed that in sleeping dreams, that there is ALWAYS a subjective quality, in that you are observing yourself in a dream...whatever personality or identity that you have in a sleeping dream, that identity, is observed just as the occurrences and environment of the sleeping dream are observed....in the waking dream, very often we are so absorbed in the dream of self and what is occurring that there is no more subjectiveness...often, in the waking dream, there is no seeing of oneself and one's environment as a kind of picture show of self and environment that we experience in the sleeping dream. What we call "waking life" seems to be a kind of moving further into the dream of self and experience, a deeper immersion into the dream, where the dream seems more "real". Hi Steve: How much of what you've posted is evident to the still mind? More clearly, i cannot find examples of your theories in simply living Life as it 'is'.. in order for your theories to 'work', there is a requirement of belief in your theories of 'dreams', but.. i have no such belief, yet the same Life experience is unfolding for me and it is for you.. the difference is what we 'think' about the Life experiences.. Anyway, thanks for answering the questions.. Be well.. Haha, tis truish, its all a kind of mind lark ;-) |
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Post by onehandclapping on Jul 22, 2013 16:44:54 GMT -5
Greetings.. General tzu-- hahaha. Tasty yet funny.  Oh the General can't be told anything because he's got it all figured out. He seems to know more than Niz......at least according to himself. I'm waiting for Tzu's new book entitled "Tzujani: The Story of the Greatest Teacher of All Time and how everyone else has gotten it wrong up to this point". Steve could have written a foreword for the book but it appears he's moved past that egoic idea of self. Could we get that lucky with Tzu? I'm not holding my breath.... At least the disciples are consistent, avoid the message/kill the messenger.. there's no substance there, just your disapproval of the messenger and your fear of the message.. Be well.. This is a similar theme Tath used to speak back before his big blow up. His mind had all the answers. He knew and everyone else was just avoiding this message he had. Now, he appears (to me in my limited interactions with him) to have moved past the "knowing" mind and into the "don't know" mind, or what some call "reality". You appear to live in the mind created reality that says there is a messenger and a message. And that these others are fearful of that message. To folks living "outside" the illusion of self (I say outside loosely so don't lock down on that and miss the point) having fear, outside of instant fight or flight reaction to stimuli (i.e. large bear jumps out of the woods at you when walking down a path) is almost laughable. As complete acceptance of whatever is happening becomes the "normal" state, fear has no place to appear. As self is left behind, fear has no vessel to appear through. Paraphrasing here but Byron Katie speaks in one of her books/talks about how a man came up and robbed her and put a gun in her stomach and said he was going to kill her. Initial fear thoughts came up but were immediately seen through and she told him that she understood he had to and thanked him for playing his role in life. You constantly accuse us of having fear of your message but yet I see only your own fear of losing this image of "I have a message". And that fear then accuses others of having fear. It's okay to not know. THIS can't be truly known by the mind. And the second the mind tells you that it does know, you've been backdoor-ed by your mind into belief of selfhood again. Let go of your fear to not know. Explore that vast ocean of unknown that the little boat called mind floats in. You might then find that there never was a boat..... -- Be unwell.  P.S. I thought you weren't responding to any of my non-substantive posts? Why did you jump into my conversation with another person? |
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Greetings..
