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Post by zendancer on Jul 17, 2013 11:49:20 GMT -5
One of my many interests involves collecting and distributing books about non-duality. In the process I have read a lot of wild and wooly spiritual autobiographies. One of the most woo-woo stories I've come across is Donna Gorrell's book, "Perfect Madness, From Awakening to Enlightenment." Her story is hard to accept at face value (her description of a third eye opening in the center of her forehead that could see even when her two physical eyes were closed is mind-bending), but the ending of her book was so accurate and down-to-earth that it seems to me she made the trip around Mt. Woo-Woo successfully, and ended up where sages usually end up. The following lines are from the epilog in her book:
"So what is enlightenment? Simply put, it is what we have left when everything else is out of the way. It is ordinary, everyday life! Before my journey into the unknown began, I must have read that same (typically Zen) message a thousand times, but I did not get it. I kept looking for something better, something more. I was filled with desire and, without knowing it, trampling over the very thing for which I searched.
So desire is a two-edged sword: The same desire that we all have to want more FROM life is the same desire that leads us to a greater understanding OF life. The crux of the matter is, if we want what we already have, we are not asking for anything, we are merely wanting to want. Amazing! How subtle is the mind, how obedient, how limited--it won't tell us that the very act of wanting gets in the way of receiving. We may think we want this or that, but what we really want is for the object of our desire to become a reality to us. And that's what enlightenment does; it makes ordinary life REAL.
In the process of getting to this point, we lose soemthing of our old self, our old sense of reality, and we may even sit on the precipice of "madness," but this is a perfect kind of madness, for it takes us into Reality. And that Reality is that the totality of experience is here and now, and it doesn't need to be FOUND--we're smack dab in the middle of it! This world upon which we walk is our very consciousness.
........Our consciousness is center of everything that ever has been or ever will be created. It is Self, loving and eternal. Most of all, it is REAL. Our universe is an extension of this Self, of OUR Self. How then can anyone even begin to want more? There is nothing more than everything! This is the Oneness, which when experienced consciously, is ELECTRIFYING.
So what does one DO after this experience? Nothing but go on living life with its ups and downs, joy and pain, mystery and knowing. What else can be done? And this is where PEACE enters. The seeking is over."
Donna's path involved kundalini, opening chakras, and all kinds of woo-woo stuff normally found in Indian spiritual literature. Zen people rarely mention anything similar to kundalini, chakras opening, a third eye, and other similar kind of phenomena. Why there is this difference in reported psychic phenomena I have no idea, but I suspect that it is because of Zen's admonition to ignore all psychic phenomena. Zen acknowledges psychic phenomena, which it calls "makyo," but it advises people to ignore it. By not feeding such phenomena with one's attention, perhaps it more quickly fades away, which is what Zen claims. Enigma might give some insight into this issue because he has had kundalini-type experiences.
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Post by merrick on Jul 17, 2013 12:11:00 GMT -5
Donna's path involved kundalini, opening chakras, and all kinds of woo-woo stuff normally found in Indian spiritual literature. Well, that so-called woo-woo stuff is only woo-woo to people who rely on their physical senses. To those, who use some of the other senses as well this stuff is perfectly real. Saying, "it's woo-woo" to them is like an uneducated person telling a scientist that there is nothing like atoms or bacteria or whatever, invisible by naked eye. Merrick |
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Post by topology on Jul 17, 2013 12:30:25 GMT -5
Donna's path involved kundalini, opening chakras, and all kinds of woo-woo stuff normally found in Indian spiritual literature. Well, that so-called woo-woo stuff is only woo-woo to people who rely on their physical senses. To those, who use some of the other senses as well this stuff is perfectly real. Saying, "it's woo-woo" to them is like an uneducated person telling a scientist that there is nothing like atoms or bacteria or whatever, invisible by naked eye. Merrick True. The point of calling it woo-woo though is more for the peeps who obsess over energy and believe in some kind of ascension, instead of simply seeing it as the way the universe has always worked. No more special than going to the gym to lift weights and exercise. |
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Post by merrick on Jul 17, 2013 12:49:27 GMT -5
OK,thanks for the clarification, topology.
Merrick
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Post by zendancer on Jul 17, 2013 13:00:36 GMT -5
Well, that so-called woo-woo stuff is only woo-woo to people who rely on their physical senses. To those, who use some of the other senses as well this stuff is perfectly real. Saying, "it's woo-woo" to them is like an uneducated person telling a scientist that there is nothing like atoms or bacteria or whatever, invisible by naked eye. Merrick True. The point of calling it woo-woo though is more for the peeps who obsess over energy and believe in some kind of ascension, instead of simply seeing it as the way the universe has always worked. No more special than going to the gym to lift weights and exercise. Correct. We call them "woo-woo" experiences to emphasize that they are temporary mindstates that often become an attachment trap. All kinds of weird stuff can happen as a result of shifting attention from thoughts to direct perception, but sooner or later we get back to washing the dishes, picking up the kids from school, and pursuing all of the other "ordinary" events of everyday life. When the mind no longer dwells upon ideas of specialness, selfhood, attainment, and other ideas that are similarly separative, life becomes a lot simpler and more matter of fact. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 21:42:49 GMT -5
gidday zd,
yes.
will send you my woo woo as soon as it comes to print.
editing at present,85,000 words-in
an the light is becoming clearer.
Tis like pearl diving.
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Post by Ishtahota on Jul 17, 2013 22:04:01 GMT -5
Zendancer
What this lady says is spot on. I would use some different words to describe some of the same things. Our sweat lodges are dark and blacked out from all light and some times people can see as if a light had been turned on. And true spiritual growth is in everyday life, it is in our interactions other people. I had a medicine woman teaching me spirit stuff for many years, very powerful stuff and I never realized all of this fully until after she left this world.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 23:08:07 GMT -5
Hi Ish
investigation is so important.
"as if the light has been turned on" as in Seeing...yes.
Our physical senses we can transcend.
We don't need to leave this world to realise a truth that can be realised here now,
where ever we have ourself focused(intently)
One thing i realised in a lodge was how the kundalini is unlocked(can be unlocked)became unlocked in a deep state of relaxation acquired within a lodge sitting.
When I went outside for a piss later
an incredible light arose
an almost bowled me over.
Later...(many years) my investigation within allowed me to confront this same light directly.
I am grateful for the dark as it revealed to my body, bliss.
At last, my body understood what my mind was struggling with..
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 18, 2013 5:35:11 GMT -5
We may think we want this or that, but what we really want is for the object of our desire to become a reality to us. What is the object of desire? She contrasts "ordinary" to her woo-woo experiences. "Ordinary" in the true sense, as most people are living it, is when one is exactly fully within what she would call ignorance and suffers all its effects and consequences. So we very much are living an ordinary life but the problem is that it's too real. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 18, 2013 6:32:03 GMT -5
We may think we want this or that, but what we really want is for the object of our desire to become a reality to us. What is the object of desire? She contrasts "ordinary" to her woo-woo experiences. "Ordinary" in the true sense, as most people are living it, is when one is exactly fully within what she would call ignorance and suffers all its effects and consequences. So we very much are living an ordinary life but the problem is that it's too real. CPQ: You make a good point, but folks who have followed the pathless path of non-duality use different words to point to the same thing. I would put it this way: "If one makes the journey around Mt. Woo-Woo, beliefs are left behind, and one eventually lives in what has been called "the void." Thoughts occur, but they aren't held tightly or invested in in the usual way. Mind is no longer dominant. Life is then lived as it is, and ideas, such as "real," "too real," "ordinary," "unreal," simply aren't imagined." I've never met Gorrell, but I'd wager that she doesn't walk around thinking, "Wow, this ordinary life is so REAL!" I suspect that she is too focused on going to the grocery store, talking with people, and interacting with "what is" to waste any time on such reflective thinking. Many sages use the words "ordinary everyday life" to point to the action-oriented non-reflective way of being that results from getting free of mind's dominance. They do this to point away from woo-woo experiences toward a way of life that is extremely down-to-earth and matter of fact. It is not special, and it is not "better" than how anyone else lives life. It is simply a different way of being in the world. It is "going with the flow" of life/reality rather than psychologically resisting it, and thinking that it should be different than it is. The sage does not "merge with Tao" because s/he already IS one-with Tao. The sage simply ceases thinking thoughts that psychologically keep him/her separated from Tao. Seekers, as a group, can be looked at many different ways. Ramesh Balsekar used to say to people, "If you have a choice between enlightenment and a million bucks, take the money and run." Ha ha. This was just his way of poking fun at both himself and all other people who are driven to find out what's going on. I look at it somewhat differently. I see the journey as a huge adventure of Self-exploration and Self-discovery with amazing highs and lows along the way. Unlike some folks I see it as a journey that never ends because who we really are is infinite, and there is no end to what can be discovered, experienced, learned, or realized. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 18, 2013 7:07:12 GMT -5
All roads lead to Rome!
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 18, 2013 7:17:44 GMT -5
CPQ: You make a good point My point is that she has escaped reality in changing its very texture. Ignorance and the suffering of its effects and consequences is real. What you and she are effectively proposing is that we change reality, but therein is the falsehood, because the complete truth of existence is ignored if one is not also confronting its ugly face. I'm not saying that you should have a solution, or that there even is one, or that you should feel bad about it. I'm saying that until you guys acknowledge reality as it is there never will be a solution and that solidarity with normal folks shouldn't be abandoned because of ideology. People are already living life "as it is", and "what is" includes the terror of ignorance, and therein normal folks are just as down-to-earth and action-oriented as you are, the only difference is that the context is different. You can't just dismiss it all as illusion because it's clearly not, the truth is that we are torturing and killing each other, what more evidence is needed to accept the reality of the so-called illusion? |
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Post by ???????? ???????????? on Jul 18, 2013 7:20:22 GMT -5
No, they don't. And no, they don't. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 18, 2013 8:11:01 GMT -5
No, they don't. And no, they don't. Yes they do! |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 18, 2013 8:14:50 GMT -5
CPQ: You make a good point My point is that she has escaped reality in changing its very texture. Ignorance and the suffering of its effects and consequences is real. What you and she are effectively proposing is that we change reality, but therein is the falsehood, because the complete truth of existence is ignored if one is not also confronting its ugly face. I'm not saying that you should have a solution, or that there even is one, or that you should feel bad about it. I'm saying that until you guys acknowledge reality as it is there never will be a solution and that solidarity with normal folks shouldn't be abandoned because of ideology. People are already living life "as it is", and "what is" includes the terror of ignorance, and therein normal folks are just as down-to-earth and action-oriented as you are, the only difference is that the context is different. You can't just dismiss it all as illusion because it's clearly not, the truth is that we are torturing and killing each other, what more evidence is needed to accept the reality of the so-called illusion? 1. No, Gorrell is not escaping reality by changing its very texture. She sees "what is" and responds to it directly rather than seeing it through the mediation of thought. She sees reality more clearly than people who see it through the filters of thought. 2. No, we are not proposing that reality be changed (to fit some conceptual model), and the truth of reality is not being ignored. By not thinking in terms of "ugly" or "beautiful" such ideas do not discolor or distort the obviousness of "what is." 3. Sages do not think in terms of "a solution." They see reality as it is, and respond to it directly. In this way they are far more in solidarity with "normal folks" than people who are highly intellectual and live totally in their heads. I once had a friend who constantly railed about the plight of poor people. One day I stopped him in mid-sentence and asked him what he had done, personally, to alleviate the plight of poor people? He couldn't think of a single thing; his schtick about "poor people" was solely in his head and led to no physical activity. 4. Yes, people are already living life "as it is," and "what is" includes many forms of ignorance and terror. In this sense they are just as much "down to earth" as sages are, but they are not nearly as action-oriented because they tend to live in their heads. Reflective thought is a burden that sages do not have to live with. This difference might seem trivial, but it is not. 5. No, the horrors of the world are not dismissed as illusions, but the primary issue is, "What is our role in this moment, here and now? Who are we? Who or what controls the body/mind? What kind of cognitive illusions are distorting our perception of "what is?" 6. Sages do not dismiss everything as illusion; they perceive and interact with the world directly. They do not think in terms of huge abstractions, such as "world peace," or "the terrible state of humankind;" they respond to what is directly in front of them, and do what they have to do. They are connected internally, intimately, and pyschologically to "what is." They therefore know what to do moment by moment. They do whatever seems most appropriate to promote what can be conceived as "peace, understanding, and tolerance" because they don't see the world as separate from themselves. If the intellect is dominant, it is impossible to understand what life is like when the intellect is not dominant. Some people have very good memories of what childhood was like when life was lived in the immediacy of the moment. There is a good reason why all great spiritual teachers have echoed Christ's statement, "You must become as a little child in order to find the Kingdom of God." |
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