Emptiness = Form

[laughter]

Jun 12, 2013 17:00:58 GMT -5 silence said:

Jun 12, 2013 14:01:31 GMT -5 Beingist said:

This is why I don't even play with ... philosophical stuff like this. So much depends upon definitions.

At first glance, I can grasp the above, but I mean, c'mon. How can one be aware of emptiness? What is it that awareness can be aware of?

It's all just ... silly talk. Mental masturbation.

Wait, is it emptiness masturbating?

no, that's how you get to a full cup but first you have to come empty

[Beingist]

Jun 12, 2013 18:05:51 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jun 12, 2013 17:00:58 GMT -5 silence said:

Wait, is it emptiness masturbating?

no, that's how you get to a full cup but first you have to come empty

D'oh!

Dangit, yeah, that's funnier than my response.

[laughter]

Jun 12, 2013 18:10:46 GMT -5 Beingist said:

Jun 12, 2013 18:05:51 GMT -5 laughter said:

no, that's how you get to a full cup but first you have to come empty

D'oh!

Dangit, yeah, that's funnier than my response.

we've had that conversation already ... the contents of the full cup are an acquired taste!

[Beingist]

Jun 12, 2013 18:14:49 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jun 12, 2013 18:10:46 GMT -5 Beingist said:

D'oh!

Dangit, yeah, that's funnier than my response.

we've had that conversation already ... the contents of the full cup are an acquired taste!

oh, no.

[laughter]

Jun 12, 2013 18:16:06 GMT -5 Beingist said:

Jun 12, 2013 18:14:49 GMT -5 laughter said:

we've had that conversation already ... the contents of the full cup are an acquired taste!

oh, no.

not you too!?! ... are these peanut allergies contagious??

[Beingist]

Jun 12, 2013 18:28:12 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jun 12, 2013 18:16:06 GMT -5 Beingist said:

oh, no.

not you too!?! ... are these peanut allergies contagious??

Okay, laffey, you had me up to the peanuts, here, but then you lose me.

[Deleted]

Jun 12, 2013 15:19:31 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jun 12, 2013 13:38:07 GMT -5 maxdprophet said:

Isn't that a Dylan song? Maybe Eagles. Or Willie.

Infinite senses?

One-hit-wonder by "Kansas". A real pick-me-upper it is at that!

Isn't that enigma playing violin? Maybe andrew with the tux. I'm seeing Beingist as vocal lead and Tzu flopping the long blond hair.

[stardustpilgrim]

Jun 12, 2013 14:01:31 GMT -5 Beingist said:

Jun 12, 2013 12:47:13 GMT -5 silver said:

Ok.  I'll play along.  No, emptiness isn't awareness because it's that we're awareness that we're aware of the emptiness.

This is why I don't even play with ... philosophical stuff like this. So much depends upon definitions.

At first glance, I can grasp the above, but I mean, c'mon. How can one be aware of emptiness? What is it that awareness can be aware of?

It's all just ... silly talk. Mental masturbation.

Emptiness in Buddhism has a specific definition (I'm sure you can Google it). It means that there is no independent origination. It means there is nothing that has permanent independent existence. Everything that is, is put together from other pieces, other stuff. Emptiness is form, form is emptiness. Emptiness (in Buddhism) doesn't mean absence, void of, like when he drank the coke the can was empty.

Therefore, there is no permanent identity. Self is put together with stuff, and anything put together will fall apart. Therefore, there really isn't a self, no permanent self, no-self.

sdp

[Beingist]

Jun 13, 2013 19:47:06 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Jun 12, 2013 14:01:31 GMT -5 Beingist said:

This is why I don't even play with ... philosophical stuff like this. So much depends upon definitions.

At first glance, I can grasp the above, but I mean, c'mon. How can one be aware of emptiness? What is it that awareness can be aware of?

It's all just ... silly talk. Mental masturbation.

Emptiness in Buddhism has a specific definition (I'm sure you can Google it). It means that there is no independent origination. It means there is nothing that has permanent independent existence. Everything that is, is put together from other pieces, other stuff. Emptiness is form, form is emptiness. Emptiness (in Buddhism) doesn't mean absence, void of, like when he drank the coke the can was empty.

Therefore, there is no permanent identity. Self is put together with stuff, and anything put together will fall apart. Therefore, there really isn't a self, no permanent self, no-self.

sdp

Yeah, I got no problem with any of that, pilgrim. But, then, what is it that's aware?

The point is, thinking about it ain't Being. I always start from, and end up at, Being.

[enigma]

Jun 13, 2013 19:47:06 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Jun 12, 2013 14:01:31 GMT -5 Beingist said:

This is why I don't even play with ... philosophical stuff like this. So much depends upon definitions.

At first glance, I can grasp the above, but I mean, c'mon. How can one be aware of emptiness? What is it that awareness can be aware of?

It's all just ... silly talk. Mental masturbation.

Emptiness in Buddhism has a specific definition (I'm sure you can Google it). It means that there is no independent origination. It means there is nothing that has permanent independent existence. Everything that is, is put together from other pieces, other stuff. Emptiness is form, form is emptiness. Emptiness (in Buddhism) doesn't mean absence, void of, like when he drank the coke the can was empty.

Therefore, there is no permanent identity. Self is put together with stuff, and anything put together will fall apart. Therefore, there really isn't a self, no permanent self, no-self.

sdp

What sort of other pieces/stuff?

[stardustpilgrim]

Jun 13, 2013 20:58:54 GMT -5 enigma said:

Jun 13, 2013 19:47:06 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Emptiness in Buddhism has a specific definition (I'm sure you can Google it). It means that there is no independent origination. It means there is nothing that has permanent independent existence. Everything that is, is put together from other pieces, other stuff. Emptiness is form, form is emptiness. Emptiness (in Buddhism) doesn't mean absence, void of, like when he drank the coke the can was empty.

Therefore, there is no permanent identity. Self is put together with stuff, and anything put together will fall apart. Therefore, there really isn't a self, no permanent self, no-self.

sdp

What sort of other pieces/stuff?

Carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, protons, electrons, neutrons, quarks, genes, memes, blue jeans, jelly beans, sunlight/photons, wood, hay, stubble, wheat, chaff, trees, forest, food, matter, energy, information, earth, wind, fire, yin, yang, s*it, symbols, imagination, illusions, delusions, roses, thorns, raindrops, time, space, mother, dad............music, notes, art, vision, friendship, love, hate, indifference.......he ain't heavy, he's my brother, Miles from Nowhere, Catch Bull at Four, Nowhere man, Nowhere man, [(no)where, (now)here].......a,b,c's.......1's, 2's, 3's.........stuff.......blood, sweat, tears......all & everything.......the kitchen sink.....gravity...quantum physics, relativity, entanglement, holograms, bread & butter, peas/little green balls of mushy poison, if you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got, karma, garbage in-garbage out.......stuff......in ten minutes, two Hardee's steak biscuits for $3.00 and a senior drink (iced tea .. .:-).......and hearing the ice drop.....

sdp

[Deleted]

Jun 14, 2013 7:16:25 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Jun 13, 2013 20:58:54 GMT -5 enigma said:

What sort of other pieces/stuff?

Carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, protons, electrons, neutrons, quarks, genes, memes, blue jeans, jelly beans, sunlight/photons, wood, hay, stubble, wheat, chaff, trees, forest, food, matter, energy, information, earth, wind, fire, yin, yang, s*it, symbols, imagination, illusions, delusions, roses, thorns, raindrops, time, space, mother, dad............music, notes, art, vision, friendship, love, hate, indifference.......he ain't heavy, he's my brother, Miles from Nowhere, Catch Bull at Four, Nowhere man, Nowhere man, [(no)where, (now)here].......a,b,c's.......1's, 2's, 3's.........stuff.......blood, sweat, tears......all & everything.......the kitchen sink.....gravity...quantum physics, relativity, entanglement, holograms, bread & butter, peas/little green balls of mushy poison, if you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got, karma, garbage in-garbage out.......stuff......in ten minutes, two Hardee's steak biscuits for $3.00 and a senior drink (iced tea .. .:-).......and hearing the ice drop.....

sdp

What is emptiness?

While nihilism concludes that reality is unknowable, that nothing exists, that nothing meaningful can be communicated about the world, the Buddhist notion of emptiness arrives at just the opposite, namely that ultimate reality is knowable, that there is a clear-cut ontological basis for phenomena, and that we can communicate and derive useful knowledge from it about the world. Emptiness (sunyata) must not be confused with nothingness. Emptiness is not non-existence and it is not non-reality.

What is emptiness then? To understand the philosophical meaning of this term, let's look at a simple solid object, such as a cup. How is a cup empty? We usually say that a cup is empty if it does not contain any liquid or solid. This is the ordinary meaning of emptiness. But, is the cup really empty? A cup empty of liquids or solids is still full of air. To be precise, we must therefore state what the cup is empty of. Can a cup be empty of all substance? A cup in a vacuum does not contain any air, but it still contains space, light, radiation, as well as its own substance. Hence, from a physical point of view, the cup is always full of something. Yet, from the Buddhist point of view, the cup is always empty. The Buddhist understanding of emptiness is different from the physical meaning. The cup being empty means that it is devoid of inherent existence.

What is meant with non-inherent existence? Is this to say that the cup does not ultimately exist? - Not quite. - The cup exists, but like everything in this world, its existence depends on other phenomena. There is nothing in a cup that is inherent to that specific cup or to cups in general. Properties such as being hollow, spherical, cylindrical, or leak-proof are not intrinsic to cups. Other objects which are not cups have similar properties, as for example vases and glasses. The cup's properties and components are neither cups themselves nor do they imply cupness on their own. The material is not the cup. The shape is not the cup. The function is not the cup. Only all these aspects together make up the cup. Hence, we can say that for an object to be a cup we require a collection of specific conditions to exist. It depends on the combination of function, use, shape, base material, and the cup's other aspects. Only if all these conditions exist simultaneously does the mind impute cupness to the object. If one condition ceases to exist, for instance, if the cup's shape is altered by breaking it, the cup forfeits some or all of its cupness, because the object's function, its shape, as well as the imputation of cupness through perception is disrupted. The cup's existence thus depends on external circumstances. Its physical essence remains elusive.

Those readers who are familiar with the theory of ideas of the Greek philosopher Plato will notice that this is pretty much the antithesis to Plato's idealism. Plato holds that there is an ideal essence of everything, e.g. cups, tables, houses, humans, and so on. Perhaps we can give Plato some credit by assuming that the essence of cups ultimately exists in the realm of mind. After all, it is the mind that perceives properties of an object and imputes cupness onto one object and tableness onto another. It is the mind that thinks "cup" and "table". Does it follow that the mind is responsible for the existence of these objects? - Apparently, the mind does not perceive cups and tables if there is no visual and tactile sensation. And, there cannot be visual and tactile sensation if there is no physical object. The perception thus depends on the presence of sensations, which in turn relies on the presence of the physical object. This is to say that the cup's essence is not in the mind. It is neither to be found in the physical object. Obviously, its essence is neither physical nor mental. It cannot be found in the world, not in the mind, and certainly not in any heavenly realm, as Plato imagined. We must conclude that the objects of perception have therefore no inherent existence.

If this is the case for a simple object, such as a cup, then it must also apply to compound things, such as cars, houses, machines, etc. A car, for example, needs a motor, wheels, axles, gears, and many other things to work. Perhaps we should consider the difference between man-made objects, such as cups, and natural phenomena, such as earth, plants, animals, and human beings. One may argue that lack of inherent existence of objects does not imply the same for natural phenomena and beings. In case of a human being, there is a body, a mind, a character, a history of actions, habits, behaviour, and other things we can draw upon to describe a person. We can even divide these characteristics further into more fundamental properties. For example, we can analyse the mind and see that there are sensations, cognition, feelings, ideas. Or, we can analyse the brain and find that there are neurons, axons, synapses, and neurotransmitters. However, none of these constituents describe the essence of the person, the mind, or the brain. Again, the essence remains elusive.

[Beingist]

Jun 14, 2013 7:39:16 GMT -5 maxdprophet said:

Jun 14, 2013 7:16:25 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, protons, electrons, neutrons, quarks, genes, memes, blue jeans, jelly beans, sunlight/photons, wood, hay, stubble, wheat, chaff, trees, forest, food, matter, energy, information, earth, wind, fire, yin, yang, s*it, symbols, imagination, illusions, delusions, roses, thorns, raindrops, time, space, mother, dad............music, notes, art, vision, friendship, love, hate, indifference.......he ain't heavy, he's my brother, Miles from Nowhere, Catch Bull at Four, Nowhere man, Nowhere man, [(no)where, (now)here].......a,b,c's.......1's, 2's, 3's.........stuff.......blood, sweat, tears......all & everything.......the kitchen sink.....gravity...quantum physics, relativity, entanglement, holograms, bread & butter, peas/little green balls of mushy poison, if you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got, karma, garbage in-garbage out.......stuff......in ten minutes, two Hardee's steak biscuits for $3.00 and a senior drink (iced tea .. .:-).......and hearing the ice drop.....

sdp

What is emptiness?

While nihilism concludes that reality is unknowable, that nothing exists, that nothing meaningful can be communicated about the world, the Buddhist notion of emptiness arrives at just the opposite, namely that ultimate reality is knowable, that there is a clear-cut ontological basis for phenomena, and that we can communicate and derive useful knowledge from it about the world. Emptiness (sunyata) must not be confused with nothingness. Emptiness is not non-existence and it is not non-reality.

What is emptiness then? To understand the philosophical meaning of this term, let's look at a simple solid object, such as a cup. How is a cup empty? We usually say that a cup is empty if it does not contain any liquid or solid. This is the ordinary meaning of emptiness. But, is the cup really empty? A cup empty of liquids or solids is still full of air. To be precise, we must therefore state what the cup is empty of. Can a cup be empty of all substance? A cup in a vacuum does not contain any air, but it still contains space, light, radiation, as well as its own substance. Hence, from a physical point of view, the cup is always full of something. Yet, from the Buddhist point of view, the cup is always empty. The Buddhist understanding of emptiness is different from the physical meaning. The cup being empty means that it is devoid of inherent existence.

What is meant with non-inherent existence? Is this to say that the cup does not ultimately exist? - Not quite. - The cup exists, but like everything in this world, its existence depends on other phenomena. There is nothing in a cup that is inherent to that specific cup or to cups in general. Properties such as being hollow, spherical, cylindrical, or leak-proof are not intrinsic to cups. Other objects which are not cups have similar properties, as for example vases and glasses. The cup's properties and components are neither cups themselves nor do they imply cupness on their own. The material is not the cup. The shape is not the cup. The function is not the cup. Only all these aspects together make up the cup. Hence, we can say that for an object to be a cup we require a collection of specific conditions to exist. It depends on the combination of function, use, shape, base material, and the cup's other aspects. Only if all these conditions exist simultaneously does the mind impute cupness to the object. If one condition ceases to exist, for instance, if the cup's shape is altered by breaking it, the cup forfeits some or all of its cupness, because the object's function, its shape, as well as the imputation of cupness through perception is disrupted. The cup's existence thus depends on external circumstances. Its physical essence remains elusive.

Those readers who are familiar with the theory of ideas of the Greek philosopher Plato will notice that this is pretty much the antithesis to Plato's idealism. Plato holds that there is an ideal essence of everything, e.g. cups, tables, houses, humans, and so on. Perhaps we can give Plato some credit by assuming that the essence of cups ultimately exists in the realm of mind. After all, it is the mind that perceives properties of an object and imputes cupness onto one object and tableness onto another. It is the mind that thinks "cup" and "table". Does it follow that the mind is responsible for the existence of these objects? - Apparently, the mind does not perceive cups and tables if there is no visual and tactile sensation. And, there cannot be visual and tactile sensation if there is no physical object. The perception thus depends on the presence of sensations, which in turn relies on the presence of the physical object. This is to say that the cup's essence is not in the mind. It is neither to be found in the physical object. Obviously, its essence is neither physical nor mental. It cannot be found in the world, not in the mind, and certainly not in any heavenly realm, as Plato imagined. We must conclude that the objects of perception have therefore no inherent existence.

If this is the case for a simple object, such as a cup, then it must also apply to compound things, such as cars, houses, machines, etc. A car, for example, needs a motor, wheels, axles, gears, and many other things to work. Perhaps we should consider the difference between man-made objects, such as cups, and natural phenomena, such as earth, plants, animals, and human beings. One may argue that lack of inherent existence of objects does not imply the same for natural phenomena and beings. In case of a human being, there is a body, a mind, a character, a history of actions, habits, behaviour, and other things we can draw upon to describe a person. We can even divide these characteristics further into more fundamental properties. For example, we can analyse the mind and see that there are sensations, cognition, feelings, ideas. Or, we can analyse the brain and find that there are neurons, axons, synapses, and neurotransmitters. However, none of these constituents describe the essence of the person, the mind, or the brain. Again, the essence remains elusive.

How philosophical.

Here's my take:

emptiness (countable and uncountable; plural emptinesses)
1. The state or feeling of being empty

empty (comparative emptier, superlative emptiest)
1. Devoid of content; containing nothing or nobody

[Deleted]

The terms "quarks" and "points in space" still suggest something solid, since they can be imagined as irreducible mass particles. Yet, quantum field theory does away even with this finer concept of solidity by explaining particles in the terms of field properties. Quantum electrodynamics (QED) has produced an amazingly successful theory of matter by combining quantum theory, classical field theory, and relativity. No discrepancies between the predictions of QED and experimental observation have ever been found. According to QED, subatomic particles are indistinguishable from fields, whereas fields are basically properties of space. In this view, a particle is a temporary local densification of a field, which is conditioned by the properties of the surrounding space. Ergo, matter is not different from space. This is the third manifestation of emptiness at the subtle level of matter.

[quinn]

So, Max, that description of emptiness seems to be pointing to 'unknown'. That dependent origination, when stepped through (backwards), points to an essence that can't be known. Is that how you read it?