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Post by topology on Dec 2, 2012 0:00:35 GMT -5
Who is writing their thesis on the subject of NLP? I was wondering if you had changed the theme of your thesis lately. I see now it was just more NLP programming. Nope, my thesis is as it ever was, on algorithms for solving logic programs in computer science. I have expressed the view that Arisha is spreading misinformation about NLP as some of what she describes as NLP specific behavior seems to be normal (as in common) human behavior. If she wants to relax the category to just be "someone who manipulates" and not "NLPer" then I would not have anything to object about.
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2012 0:14:53 GMT -5
I was wondering if you had changed the theme of your thesis lately. I see now it was just more NLP programming. Nope, my thesis is as it ever was, on algorithms for solving logic programs in computer science. Okay. I'm sure Arisha has an explanation for her comment. I think she's a bit distressed with what she sees in the mirror these days.
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Post by Beingist on Dec 2, 2012 0:15:39 GMT -5
The guy who is writing his thesis on the subject of NLP should know about the tricks, - but he seems to be not competent enough because of the lack of knowledge and education. But Enigma knows, of course, and is practicing his NLP skills on the members of the forum. Um. Sorry, arisha, but I'm just not buying this assertion. In fact, it all seems really quite silly, if you ask me.
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Post by arisha on Dec 2, 2012 1:33:46 GMT -5
I also don't buy your view, sorry. You see from your perspective which is different, and you are not involved, - it also matters. Of course Enigma will never agree that he's NLPing, that he knows about NLP tricks, etc. He even doesn't agree that he uses different contexts in order to distort what was said (which is an NLP tool). He even asked about proofs regarding his distortions! And he will, I am sure, be twisting again in case such proofs are given. I've looked through my thread "Is Oneness the ultimate realization", and found a lot of examples of distortions made by him, which I immediately pointed to him out in that thread, - did he agree? Or at least did he try to explain why he was doing that , or at least did he somehow change or explain what was wrong about those places in his posts which were full of distortions? No. He simply ignored what I said. He always ignores such situations, and is not going to ponder why he is said again and again about distortions, twisting, changing of the contexts, etc.etc.
He said in this thread that he hoped I would fail, and he said in other threads before that I was not the first, not the last one who would have to either accept the ideas promoted on the forum , or leave it, as many who were before me had had to do. It is also an NLP tool. An NLPer views any situation as if they were in total control of people involved in that situation, and in total control of what others are allowed to say on the subject discussed.
The atmosphere of the forum is created not only directly, by the words used. Rude words are not allowed here any more, and insulting is now prohibited. But it doesn't mean that the indirect use of the NLP tools is not an issue, and is appropriate. Of course the indirect use of such tools is what an NLPer will use when their regular practice is not a secret any more.
When I was asked about the proofs several pages before I immediately found the proofs in another thread which was being active at that time, - and I pointed to that thread and the proofs in it not once, but two or three times. Did I receive at least some reaction? None.
Those people who are involved don't need any proofs to understand what I am talking about. They can feel what is very often going on here by themselves. The proofs are asked about by those who give no reaction to the proofs after they have been given to them several times.
I can say it again: if people want to be the first always, they forget about many important things, and about the main rule : hurting others is an inappropriate method, doesn't matter if it is done directly or indirectly. If I hurt somebody's feelings because of their high self importance , or because they are trying to use wrong methods in order to dominate - I think others will understand what I am doing. It's a question of the priority. When many people are hurt by a few, it's much more harmful to be tolerant to those few. The less evil is the priority in this case.
I understand that you are not involved, Beingist, and therefore don't notice some details.
But those who were involved, or are involved will understand me better.
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Post by laughter on Dec 2, 2012 1:45:18 GMT -5
Liar. Ditto. √-1 Amazing avatar pic there Sharon.
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Post by topology on Dec 2, 2012 1:50:03 GMT -5
I also don't buy your view, sorry. You see from your perspective which is different, and you are not involved, - it also matters. Of course Enigma will never agree that he's NLPing, that he knows about NLP tricks, etc. He even doesn't agree that he uses different contexts in order to distort what was said (which is an NLP tool). He even asked about proofs regarding his distortions! And he will, I am sure, be twisting again in case such proofs are given. I've looked through my thread "Is Oneness the ultimate realization", and found a lot of examples of distortions made by him, which I immediately pointed to him out in that thread, - did he agree? Or at least did he try to explain why he was doing that , or at least did he somehow change or explain what was wrong about those places in his posts which were full of distortions? No. He simply ignored what I said. He always ignores such situations, and is not going to ponder why he is said again and again about distortions, twisting, changing of the contexts, etc.etc. He said in this thread that he hoped I would fail, and he said in other threads before that I was not the first, not the last one who would have to either accept the ideas promoted on the forum , or leave it, as many who were before me had had to do. It is also an NLP tool. An NLPer views any situation as if they were in total control of people involved in that situation, and in total control of what others are allowed to say on the subject discussed. The atmosphere of the forum is created not only directly, by the words used. Rude words are not allowed here any more, and insulting is now prohibited. But it doesn't mean that the indirect use of the NLP tools is not an issue, and is appropriate. Of course the indirect use of such tools is what an NLPer will use when their regular practice is not a secret any more. When I was asked about the proofs several pages before I immediately found the proofs in another thread which was being active at that time, - and I pointed to that thread and the proofs in it not once, but two or three times. Did I receive at least some reaction? None. Those people who are involved don't need any proofs to understand what I am talking about. They can feel what is very often going on here by themselves. The proofs are asked about by those who give no reaction to the proofs after they have been given to them several times. I can say it again: if people want to be the first always, they forget about many important things, and about the main rule : hurting others is an inappropriate method, doesn't matter if it is done directly or indirectly. If I hurt somebody's feelings because of their high self importance , or because they are trying to use wrong methods in order to dominate - I think others will understand what I am doing. It's a question of the priority. When many people are hurt by a few, it's much more harmful to be tolerant to those few. The less evil is the priority in this case. I understand that you are not involved, Beingist, and therefore don't notice some details. But those who were involved, or are involved will understand me better. You complain about Enigma distorting and yet you distort information yourself. You are no less of an "NLPer" than anyone else you accuse.
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Post by arisha on Dec 2, 2012 2:26:34 GMT -5
Of course there are plenty of examples of a hidden, indirect manipulating and NLP use. If we have even direct manipulating, the hidden NLPing is usually abundant.
I am going to give just one example which came to my mind: "Do you beat your wife?" - this question was asked not in the direct sense, of course. It was asked to make some statement which was supposed to support the position of the one who asked it. Why was this very question chosen? Not, say, "Do you drink coffee?" - which would sound neutral. But the question "Do you beat your wife?" was intentionally chosen as the one with a very negative connotation. Not because that negative connotation was important for making things clear. Quite the opposite. The negativity was used intentionally to create some stress for the mind. A person may be embarrassed if he is not confident, may start SUBCONSCIOUSLY to apply the situation to himself: Why am I asked if I do such an ugly thing as beating my wife? In case of a stress people start being more emotional, make mistakes more often, may forget about things, - and this is what the NLPer needs. His own domination and control over the emotional state and thinking abilities of others is his main aim. If he is in control, he will win, he hopes (in a discussion, in implanting his ideas, etc.) So, the choise of words and phrases with negative connotation is one of the tools, - which can help create the indirect manipulation of the mind. Yes, Enigma knows how the mind works - in case a stressful situation is created, - and he uses his knowledge about how mind works - in order to dominate and manipulate.
He knows much more about how the mind works. And he uses this knowledge to control other members of the forum, and not allow different opinions. Only he decides what is true, what is not. He will demonstrate that to everybody immediately, I am sure, by attacking all that is said against him, without exception. But he won't attack a person who accepts his ideas, is obedient, and cannot prevent him from his manoeuvres.
So, if people notice that words with negative connotation are used, analyze why. Was it necessary at all? Was it possible to avoid using them, was it possible to adduce some other examples, without negativity?
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2012 2:42:18 GMT -5
Of course there are plenty of examples of a hidden, indirect manipulating and NLP use. If we have even direct manipulating, the hidden NLPing is usually abundant. I am going to give just one example which came to my mind: "Do you beat your wife?" - this question was asked not in the direct sense, of course. It was asked to make some statement which was supposed to support the position of the one who asked it. Why was this very question chosen? Not, say, "Do you drink coffee?" - which would sound neutral. But the question "Do you beat your wife?" was intentionally chosen as the one with a very negative connotation. Not because that negative connotation was important for making things clear. Quite the opposite. The negativity was used intentionally to create some stress for the mind. In case of a stress people start being more emotional, make mistakes more often, may forget about things, - and this is what the NLPer needs. His own domination and control over the emotional state and thinking abilities of others is his main aim. If he is in control, he will win, he hopes (in a discussion, in implanting his ideas, etc.) So, the choise of words and phrases with negative connotation is one of the tools, - which can help create the indirect manipulation of the mind. Yes, Enigma knows how the mind works - in case a stressful situation is created, - and he uses his knowledge about how mind works - in order to dominate and manipulate. The cliche in question is actually "Have you stopped beating your wife". I've used it to point out a tactic of manipulation which you use on a regular basis. The idea of such manipulations is to imply a falsehood as though it is a fact. All you're saying here is that I will agree with those I agree with, and disagree with those I disagree with. I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that everybody does that. Do you find yourself often 'attacking a person who accepts your ideas'? It is a nonsense.
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Post by arisha on Dec 2, 2012 3:06:45 GMT -5
One more tactic is not answering ALL questions,- just some of them, those which are good for answering them, and for creating quite a new context, in order to use the new context for attacking back. Most of the questions are ignored by the NLPer, most of the comments are also ignored, - as if what is asked or said had never been asked or said. Who will read this stuff attentively? Most of the people are here for spiritual discussions, not for arguing about tools and methods used, - they won't read. I am wasting my time on this analysis because I am involved in the situation and can see the details which others ommit. The main reason is not my own involvement as I prefer to quickly stop my envolvement in any ugly situations. But I am not going to simply watch how a disguised bullying is going on. Hidden bullying is as inappropriate as the direct confrontation with insults and mockery.
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2012 3:33:40 GMT -5
One more tactic is not answering ALL questions,- just some of them, those which are good for answering them, and for creating quite a new context, in order to use the new context for attacking back. Most of the questions are ignored by the NLPer, most of the comments are also ignored, - as if what is asked or said had never been asked or said. Who will read this stuff attentively? Most of the people are here for spiritual discussions, not for arguing about tools and methods used, - they won't read. I am wasting my time on this analysis because I am involved in the situation and can see the details which others ommit. The main reason is not my own involvement as I prefer to quickly stop my envolvement in any ugly situations. But I am not going to simply watch how a disguised bullying is going on. Hidden bullying is as inappropriate as the direct confrontation with insults and mockery. I try to address the misperceptions that seem most obvious, and which you have some potential of recognizing. Examples are quotes that are not in evidence (that peeps must agree or leave the forum), or have been misunderstood ('Do you beat your wife' vs 'Have you stopped beating your wife') or blatantly obvious nonsense ("But he won't attack a person who accepts his ideas"). It would be a very simple matter to notice these errors, but of course you have no interest in noticing them, and so they are simply ignored, and the process of ignoring is unconsciously projected onto me. (Something else for you to ignore) Communicating with you is a bit like sitting on the edge of the bed whispering in your ear in hopes of influencing your dream. It's an iffy proposition at best.
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Post by sharon on Dec 2, 2012 4:04:00 GMT -5
Ditto. √-1 Amazing avatar pic there Sharon. Cheers man I'm reminded now of a time I went with a friend to a nearby Safari Park. We had parked for a minute next to a Tiger enclosure. And behind us an Asian family had also stopped. Perhaps Bangladeshi, Northern India. A man had got out of the car, and was speaking with the Tiger. It felt like a man that was meeting with his brother, once again.
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Post by arisha on Dec 2, 2012 4:06:54 GMT -5
So, I started this thread in order to comment immediately on the use of the inapproapriate methods against others, in case I notice such an abuse, and I'll try to analyze all such situations if asked.
No wonder that an NLPer will try to pervert everything upside down, and accuse me instead, - who have any doubts about that! I do not expect that they will gladly accept that they are wrong, or will try to change the situation by means of changing themselves, - there are no signs of the slightest improvement about their self-esteem. What they are going to write here is also known beforehand: everything I say will be always changed, I will be always guilty , - nothing else. But those who read this thread will at least have some information about the use of NLP methods, can check it out themselves if NLP is really used or not in this or that case, and the first thing about NLP is its subconscious influence on the mind which everybody should be aware of. So, avoid posts where words with negative connotations are used, especially if it's a strong negative connotation without necessity, when words/phrases could be substituted by different ones, with no negativity. Don't allow to hit your mind with such words. Also don't buy a sudden change of behavior in a person who may start telling jokes and funny stories. The relaxation of the mind is what an NLPer needs.
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Post by topology on Dec 2, 2012 8:18:12 GMT -5
One more tactic is not answering ALL questions,- just some of them, those which are good for answering them, and for creating quite a new context, in order to use the new context for attacking back. Most of the questions are ignored by the NLPer, most of the comments are also ignored, - as if what is asked or said had never been asked or said. Who will read this stuff attentively? Most of the people are here for spiritual discussions, not for arguing about tools and methods used, - they won't read. I am wasting my time on this analysis because I am involved in the situation and can see the details which others ommit. The main reason is not my own involvement as I prefer to quickly stop my envolvement in any ugly situations. But I am not going to simply watch how a disguised bullying is going on. Hidden bullying is as inappropriate as the direct confrontation with insults and mockery. What about your own disguised bullying, Arisha? These posts you've been writing about the "NLPer" are really written about Enigma and myself. You've deleted and wont use my name, for whatever reason, but the association is clear through reference to dissertation. You have distorted the subject of my dissertation. You've generalized the "methods" of "NLPers". Your intent with these posts are to plant subconscious suggestions in the minds of readers that the persons you are talking about are manipulating and controlling the conversation through subconscious suggestion. Let's be real Arisha. You are guilty of everything you write about. You've adjusted your tone to make it softer so it is more palatable to the reader and does not put yourself at risk of being banned by the mod.
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Post by enigma on Dec 2, 2012 12:11:43 GMT -5
One more tactic is not answering ALL questions,- just some of them, those which are good for answering them, and for creating quite a new context, in order to use the new context for attacking back. Most of the questions are ignored by the NLPer, most of the comments are also ignored, - as if what is asked or said had never been asked or said. Who will read this stuff attentively? Most of the people are here for spiritual discussions, not for arguing about tools and methods used, - they won't read. I am wasting my time on this analysis because I am involved in the situation and can see the details which others ommit. The main reason is not my own involvement as I prefer to quickly stop my envolvement in any ugly situations. But I am not going to simply watch how a disguised bullying is going on. Hidden bullying is as inappropriate as the direct confrontation with insults and mockery. What about your own disguised bullying, Arisha? These posts you've been writing about the "NLPer" are really written about Enigma and myself. You've deleted and wont use my name, for whatever reason, but the association is clear through reference to dissertation. You have distorted the subject of my dissertation. You've generalized the "methods" of "NLPers". Your intent with these posts are to plant subconscious suggestions in the minds of readers that the persons you are talking about are manipulating and controlling the conversation through subconscious suggestion. Let's be real Arisha. You are guilty of everything you write about. You've adjusted your tone to make it softer so it is more palatable to the reader and does not put yourself at risk of being banned by the mod. Zachlee. It's also useful to notice that as the mind becomes more stressed, the projections become more frequent and blatant because this fear results in more contraction of the focus, which means less conscious. However, the projections themselves reveal that the truth of the matter is in fact being seen even in this contracted state or there would be no need to project. So the contracted, unconscious focus actually is aware, just not consciously so. On deeper levels of mind, there IS the awareness of what's going on, it's just being actively blocked from conscious awareness. The battle intensifies to prevent this conscious awareness, but in a sense, the horsey has already left the barn. In the larger context, we all already know the Truth, because we ARE the Truth. The issue is how long we can resist the conscious awareness of Truth. How long can we keep ourselves unconscious even as we pretend to be seeking full conscious awareness. The situation is absurd, and this is the root of human insanity.
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Post by jasonl on Dec 2, 2012 12:45:56 GMT -5
What about your own disguised bullying, Arisha? These posts you've been writing about the "NLPer" are really written about Enigma and myself. You've deleted and wont use my name, for whatever reason, but the association is clear through reference to dissertation. You have distorted the subject of my dissertation. You've generalized the "methods" of "NLPers". Your intent with these posts are to plant subconscious suggestions in the minds of readers that the persons you are talking about are manipulating and controlling the conversation through subconscious suggestion. Let's be real Arisha. You are guilty of everything you write about. You've adjusted your tone to make it softer so it is more palatable to the reader and does not put yourself at risk of being banned by the mod. Zachlee. It's also useful to notice that as the mind becomes more stressed, the projections become more frequent and blatant because this fear results in more contraction of the focus, which means less conscious. However, the projections themselves reveal that the truth of the matter is in fact being seen even in this contracted state or there would be no need to project. So the contracted, unconscious focus actually is aware, just not consciously so. On deeper levels of mind, there IS the awareness of what's going on, it's just being actively blocked from conscious awareness. The battle intensifies to prevent this conscious awareness, but in a sense, the horsey has already left the barn. In the larger context, we all already know the Truth, because we ARE the Truth. The issue is how long we can resist the conscious awareness of Truth. How long can we keep ourselves unconscious even as we pretend to be seeking full conscious awareness. The situation is absurd, and this is the root of human insanity. And in a mediumer context, its what's unconsciously believed to be true at the root of the conflicted and prone to project mind which causes the projection in the first place. We could call it a phenomena of thought identification, but its an emotional business at the core.
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