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Post by frankshank on Nov 17, 2012 17:42:45 GMT -5
Thanks for that Beingist. I'm not that well up on NLP. I just watched a video on youtube about it though and the guy was giving advice on chatting up women. His advice was to be yourself. Strip away the BS. He used a number of metaphors to get the message across. Here's the video actually: m.youtube.com/watch?v=N2nAqRjEgd0. SO based on that sincerity isn't necessarily shelved when using NLP. I'd struggle to figure out whether someone was being sincere via an internet forum anyway. Face to face - much easier. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming#History_and_foundingIt started out with an effort at being therapeutic, cognitive re-templating through intentionally changing our languaging. While the wiki article says its discredited, the marketing and propaganda industry would be proof positive that you can influence other people's cognition with very specific word choice. It gets a negative wrap because there were many seminars coming out about how to increase sales and productivity through "programming" others, essentially managing their perception and thought processes. Protocols for controlling conversation. Another example of a highly programmed group-> Ruthless Truth. For things which need protocols and managed perceptions (think lobby of DMV, doctor weighting room, etc), NLP can be useful for herding people. But NLP is not good at dynamic interaction and spontaneity. Most authentic interactions, human to human, essence to essence, would be constrained through the over-use of NLP. But business which need to treat people through roles, NLP can be employed to design the interaction around enforcing those roles. As with everything, it all boils down to the intent of the person/agency employing the tool. Thanks for the helpful info Top.
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Post by silence on Nov 17, 2012 18:41:05 GMT -5
NLP - Neuro-Linguistic Programming. A very nasty methodology. Its aim is manipulation. Its ideas are unethical. What can be ethical about the use of distortion, generalization and deletion? I say it at the very beginning, and will be pasting it every time I am accused of the NLP: NLP guys! If you think I use NLP first look in the mirror. Yeah, our NLP guys have been trained well, they give support to each other, and never learn anything new. Those are their main features. They are like machines : programmed for NLP, emotionless, cannot be tired, always use NLP. Now they will cite this part and start their NLP. I am not going to answer posts with NLP. I will speak only to people, not to NLP machines. All those NLP methods have been known since time immemorial. Sounds like reverse psychology NLP trickery if I ever heard it! You can't get me!
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Post by zendancer on Nov 17, 2012 19:26:43 GMT -5
Heretofore I wasn't aware that there were dangerous things called "NLPer's." LOL. I've only heard NLP discussed as a kind of language-modification perspective-shift technique for gaining insight. For example, if a person changes the word "I" or "me" for "It" or "body/mind," it can theoretically loosen the bonds of identification. Consider the following two statements:
1. I wonder what I'll do next? 2. What will the body/mind do next?
The second statement stimulates a detached kind of watchfulness rather than reinforcing the usual kind of self-referentiality. Whether this sort of thing would be beneficial as part of a long-term strategy for becoming free of identifying with a body/mind is questionable, but on the surface I don't see any harm that could come from it.
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Post by enigma on Nov 17, 2012 19:46:30 GMT -5
NLP - Neuro-Linguistic Programming. A very nasty methodology. Its aim is manipulation. Its ideas are unethical. What can be ethical about the use of distortion, generalization and deletion? I say it at the very beginning, and will be pasting it every time I am accused of the NLP: NLP guys! If you think I use NLP first look in the mirror. Yeah, our NLP guys have been trained well, they give support to each other, and never learn anything new. Those are their main features. They are like machines : programmed for NLP, emotionless, cannot be tired, always use NLP. Now they will cite this part and start their NLP. I am not going to answer posts with NLP. I will speak only to people, not to NLP machines. All those NLP methods have been known since time immemorial. I don't really know anything about NLP, so my conclusion that you were employing it was an if/then statement of fact. I.e., if NLP is X, and you are clearly doing X, then you must be doing NLP. As far as I know, the only person here involved in NLP is Andrew, and he claims to not employ it. I would say NLP is a non-issue here as such. However, in the larger context of manipulative speech patterns, I would say everybody does it, some consciously and some unconsciously, some much more than others. We all have a sense of what sort of language influences our perception, or at least unconsciously we do. We know that when somebody tells us 'everybody is doing such and such', or 'everybody knows this', or 'others have said this about you too', we have more of a tendency to think it may be true. When we ask 'Have you stopped beating your wife?', we have a tendency to think wife beating might be a fact. When we say something over and over again, we find a tendency to start accepting the idea as true by virtue of having heard it said so many times, even though repetition has no bearing on truth. I dunno if these techniques are properly called NLP or hypnotic suggestion or something else, but I see them used all the time here. Right now, I'm seeing a correlation between how unconscious one seems to be, and the use of these tactics, which makes me think it's not so much a sophisticated manipulation as an unconscious automatic process.
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Post by arisha on Nov 18, 2012 0:49:53 GMT -5
Indeed, I have a hard time dealing with NLPers, myself, but I really don't think there's anyone on this forum that uses it. The idea that anyone does seems to have come out of left field. Yes, they use it, and they claim they do it because it's a natural thing in communication between people. It demonstrates what kind of people they mainly deal with, btw, - the same type of people they belong to themselves, - the same type of NLP guys whose only aim is to win, pushing away all who don't allow them to achieve that aim. Other people for them are the objects which can be used to proove to everybody and to themselves that they can always be winners. A purely egoistic aim. To hide that (nobody likes egoists) they will be playing other games with people such as presenting themselves as helpers, and the like. They claim they can see with clarity, - but they can only (or mainly - not to make a generalization) project. They need to hide their ignorance and confusion, - and they try to suggest one a thought that one is projecting, when questioning their high standards, that it's one's own weak point, etc. Many of them can talk a lot, and this verbosity helps them to make their numerous suggestions, - at least some of those suggestions will take an effect, - this is what they need. The suggestions are, for course, "programs" which help them manipulate others, that is make them think, speak and do things which are for the NLPer's benefits. This tool, NLP, is taught at many seminars or meetings. They are for those who want to learn how to manipulate others. There are many NLP guys on spiritual forums like this. Besides being the type of people who have a strong egoistic bias and need to exercise it in all possible ways, such people need to train their NLPing on others here as well. They induce their favorite ideas, they try to convince as many people as possible, they try to make fans, - just to satisfy their ambitions about being always the leaders who are always right, the best, the winners. If they hurt somebody while doing that they will tell them even more things that hurt, - it is called "help" and aims at making a person feel down so that it could be easier to control them. This is their favorite strategy which helps them feel just fine as they have what they need - the dominating position. The more others are hurt the better ( They call it "help", and "making things clear, without illusions"). One more strategy - to fight back immediately if somebody disagrees, - so, I won't be surprised if I am immediately told here that all that I said is my imagination, projection, etc.,etc. Those NLP guys are very dodgy, and play all types of games. Games with words and contexts are their favorites on the Internet forums. Insincere and false creatures they are. What does all these have to do with spirituality which is about TEACHING how TO SERVE OTHERS - first and foremost? Or even with another type of spirituality which claims to be seeking for Truth? Nothing.
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Post by enigma on Nov 18, 2012 1:14:04 GMT -5
Indeed, I have a hard time dealing with NLPers, myself, but I really don't think there's anyone on this forum that uses it. The idea that anyone does seems to have come out of left field. Yes, they use it, and they claim they do it because it's a natural thing in communication between people. It demonstrates what kind of people they mainly deal with, btw, - the same type of people they belong to themselves, - the same type of NLP guys whose only aim is to win, pushing away all who don't allow them to achieve that aim. Other people for them are the objects which can be used to proove to everybody and to themselves that they can always be winners. A purely egoistic aim. To hide that (nobody likes egoists) they will be playing other games with people such as presenting themselves as helpers, and the like. They claim they can see with clarity, - but they can only (or mainly - not to make a generalization) project. They need to hide their ignorance and confusion, - and they try to suggest one a thought that one is projecting, when questioning their high standards, that it's one's own weak point, etc. Many of them can talk a lot, and this verbosity helps them to make their numerous suggestions, - at least some of those suggestions will take an effect, - this is what they need. The suggestions are, for course, "programs" which help them manipulate others, that is make them think, speak and do things which are for the NLPer's benefits. This tool, NLP, is taught at many seminars or meetings. They are for those who want to learn how to manipulate others. There are many NLP guys on spiritual forums like this. Besides being the type of people who have a strong egoistic bias and need to exercise it in all possible ways, such people need to train their NLPing on others here as well. They induce their favorite ideas, they try to convince as many people as possible, they try to make fans, - just to satisfy their ambitions about being always the leaders who are always right, the best, the winners. If they hurt somebody while doing that they will tell them even more things that hurt, - it is called "help" and aims at making a person feel down so that it could be easier to control them. This is their favorite strategy which helps them feel just fine as they have what they need - the dominating position. The more others are hurt the better ( They call it "help", and "making things clear, without illusions"). One more strategy - to fight back immediately if somebody disagrees, - so, I won't be surprised if I am immediately told here that all that I said is my imagination, projection, etc.,etc. Those NLP guys are very dodgy, and play all types of games. Games with words and contexts are their favorites on the Internet forums. Insincere and false creatures they are. What does all these have to do with spirituality which is about TEACHING how TO SERVE OTHERS - first and foremost? Or even with another type of spirituality which claims to be seeking for Truth? Nothing. I gots just two words fer ya: In sane.
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Post by topology on Nov 18, 2012 1:33:14 GMT -5
Yes, they use it, and they claim they do it because it's a natural thing in communication between people. It demonstrates what kind of people they mainly deal with, btw, - the same type of people they belong to themselves, - the same type of NLP guys whose only aim is to win, pushing away all who don't allow them to achieve that aim. Other people for them are the objects which can be used to proove to everybody and to themselves that they can always be winners. A purely egoistic aim. To hide that (nobody likes egoists) they will be playing other games with people such as presenting themselves as helpers, and the like. They claim they can see with clarity, - but they can only (or mainly - not to make a generalization) project. They need to hide their ignorance and confusion, - and they try to suggest one a thought that one is projecting, when questioning their high standards, that it's one's own weak point, etc. Many of them can talk a lot, and this verbosity helps them to make their numerous suggestions, - at least some of those suggestions will take an effect, - this is what they need. The suggestions are, for course, "programs" which help them manipulate others, that is make them think, speak and do things which are for the NLPer's benefits. This tool, NLP, is taught at many seminars or meetings. They are for those who want to learn how to manipulate others. There are many NLP guys on spiritual forums like this. Besides being the type of people who have a strong egoistic bias and need to exercise it in all possible ways, such people need to train their NLPing on others here as well. They induce their favorite ideas, they try to convince as many people as possible, they try to make fans, - just to satisfy their ambitions about being always the leaders who are always right, the best, the winners. If they hurt somebody while doing that they will tell them even more things that hurt, - it is called "help" and aims at making a person feel down so that it could be easier to control them. This is their favorite strategy which helps them feel just fine as they have what they need - the dominating position. The more others are hurt the better ( They call it "help", and "making things clear, without illusions"). One more strategy - to fight back immediately if somebody disagrees, - so, I won't be surprised if I am immediately told here that all that I said is my imagination, projection, etc.,etc. Those NLP guys are very dodgy, and play all types of games. Games with words and contexts are their favorites on the Internet forums. Insincere and false creatures they are. What does all these have to do with spirituality which is about TEACHING how TO SERVE OTHERS - first and foremost? Or even with another type of spirituality which claims to be seeking for Truth? Nothing. I gots just two words fer ya: In sane. The paranoia level is definitely rising. Who are these mysterious dangerous NLPers? Such ambiguity, it could be anyone!!! Why is this coming out now, not months ago? Why haven't we heard about this infestation of insidious NLPers before?
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Post by enigma on Nov 18, 2012 1:40:34 GMT -5
I gots just two words fer ya: In sane. The paranoia level is definitely rising. Who are these mysterious dangerous NLPers? Such ambiguity, it could be anyone!!! Why is this coming out now, not months ago? Why haven't we heard about this infestation of insidious NLPers before? Could be they've been wandering through the galaxy, and just now came to visit our solar system. Not sure.
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Post by arisha on Nov 18, 2012 1:44:33 GMT -5
I. don't. talk. to. NLPers. any. more.
Why? - Here is my answer to good normal people, not NLP machines:
Because I saw again and again how they treat others, how shamelessly they hurt others, - just to prove it is they who are right always. I am here for discussing topics on spirituality with those who are able to hear others' opinions and communicate without using unethical methods, - see OP.
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Post by sharon on Nov 18, 2012 4:35:35 GMT -5
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Post by Peter on Nov 18, 2012 5:39:59 GMT -5
Yes, they use it, and they claim they do it because it's a natural thing in communication between people. It demonstrates what kind of people they mainly deal with, btw, - the same type of people they belong to themselves, - the same type of NLP guys whose only aim is to win, pushing away all who don't allow them to achieve that aim. Other people for them are the objects which can be used to proove to everybody and to themselves that they can always be winners. A purely egoistic aim. To hide that (nobody likes egoists) they will be playing other games with people such as presenting themselves as helpers, and the like. They claim they can see with clarity, - but they can only (or mainly - not to make a generalization) project. They need to hide their ignorance and confusion, - and they try to suggest one a thought that one is projecting, when questioning their high standards, that it's one's own weak point, etc. Many of them can talk a lot, and this verbosity helps them to make their numerous suggestions, - at least some of those suggestions will take an effect, - this is what they need. The suggestions are, for course, "programs" which help them manipulate others, that is make them think, speak and do things which are for the NLPer's benefits.
This tool, NLP, is taught at many seminars or meetings. They are for those who want to learn how to manipulate others.
There are many NLP guys on spiritual forums like this. Besides being the type of people who have a strong egoistic bias and need to exercise it in all possible ways, such people need to train their NLPing on others here as well. They induce their favorite ideas, they try to convince as many people as possible, they try to make fans, - just to satisfy their ambitions about being always the leaders who are always right, the best, the winners.
If they hurt somebody while doing that they will tell them even more things that hurt, - it is called "help" and aims at making a person feel down so that it could be easier to control them. This is their favorite strategy which helps them feel just fine as they have what they need - the dominating position. The more others are hurt the better ( They call it "help", and "making things clear, without illusions").
One more strategy - to fight back immediately if somebody disagrees, - so, I won't be surprised if I am immediately told here that all that I said is my imagination, projection, etc.,etc.
Those NLP guys are very dodgy, and play all types of games. Games with words and contexts are their favorites on the Internet forums. Insincere and false creatures they are.
What does all these have to do with spirituality which is about TEACHING how TO SERVE OTHERS - first and foremost? Or even with another type of spirituality which claims to be seeking for Truth? Nothing. I gots just two words fer ya: In sane. Enigma - please to clarify. What was it that you found Insane here?
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Post by topology on Nov 18, 2012 8:17:37 GMT -5
I gots just two words fer ya: In sane. Enigma - please to clarify. What was it that you found Insane here? How about the blanket demonification of a class of individuals based on their interest in NLP? It sounds like Arisha has had some encounters with some bad apples, but one or two or even many bad apples doesn't mean the whole lot is bad. But she's willing to go with her personal pain and irrationally hate them all. Does having an irrational prejudice that would lead to the mistreatment of an innocent qualify as insane? Why not seek to heal the wound, to not want to see every NLPer as evil? She is seeking to spread her prejudice and hate to others.
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Post by quinn on Nov 18, 2012 9:36:12 GMT -5
"The dharma was devised specifically to expose your failings and make you feel awful." "If you are only concerned about feeling good, you are far better off having a full-body massage or listening to some uplifting or life-affirming music than receiving dharma teachings." Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche
It's the nature of the beast for feelings to get hurt around here.
Yeah, insane is harsh. Extra harsh. But so is saying that Top and E are manipulating everyone for some devious purpose.
Arisha, you've given a lot of abuse and taken a lot of abuse without batting an eye. I'm surprised you're making an issue out of this.
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Post by desertrat on Nov 18, 2012 11:34:12 GMT -5
I think you are confusing N.L.P. with L.Ron Hubbard and Scientology . Many years ago I read his book and was interested in getting what they call edit ted . I wanted to watch them do some one else first just to see how it worked , but the would not let me do that , so I just forgot it . en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L_ron_hubbard en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology desert rat
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Post by desertrat on Nov 18, 2012 12:10:16 GMT -5
I did a web search on N.L.P. and I think most of the programs cost money . You can get binaural mp3 down loads for free . I believe that computer program to record your own message and play it back during sleep is free . You can get a self hypnosis cd , dvd , or mp3 for $10-$20 . One of many that sell self hypnosis cds richardsutphen.com/products-page/ desert rat
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